cool welcome to bill restricting online ammo sales

[frigidmagi]

Yahoo

The White House gave a cool welcome on Monday to Democratic legislation that would effectively ban online or mail-order purchases of ammunition in the aftermath of the mass shooting at an Aurora, Colorado, movie theater.

"I haven't seen the specific piece of legislation that has been offered up today," spokesman Josh Earnest told reporters at the daily press briefing. "But as that and other pieces of legislation make their way through the legislative process, we'll evaluate them."

The proposal, crafted by Democratic Senator Frank Lautenberg and Democratic Representative Carolyn McCarthy, aims to restrict the ability of Americans to buy unlimited quantities of ammunition over the Internet, or by mail order, anonymously.

President Barack Obama has called for a common sense response to the slaughter in Aurora. But the White House has played down his appetite for new legislation as opposed to tightening or toughening existing measures—such as background checks—to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals or the mentally ill. And the president has underlined his support for the Second Amendment to the Constitution.

"He believes in the second amendment of the constitution, in the right to bear arms," Earnest said again Monday. "But he also believes that we should take robust steps, within existing law, to ensure that guns don't fall in the hands of criminals or others who shouldn't have them.

The new legislation, dubbed the Stop Online Ammunition Sales Act, rests on four pillars, according to Lautenberg's office:

It requires anyone selling ammunition to be a licensed dealer.

It requires ammunition buyers who are not licensed dealers to present photo identification at the time of purchase, effectively banning the online or mail order purchase of ammo by regular civilians.

It requires licensed ammunition dealers to maintain records of the sale of ammunition.

It requires licensed ammunition dealers to report the sale of more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition to an unlicensed person within any five consecutive business days.

Of the four provisions, I'm iffy on the first two. The first one I could let slide I think but the second one likely not. The thing is, honestly? I'm not sure we could have stopped the Colorado shooter from acquiring his weapons, it was all done legally and there was nothing in his background to trip warning lights. Going over everything it seems like he just had a mental breakdown and went nuts and I am at a lost at how to prevent that. One supposes disarming the population might have an effect but then I have to ask, how do you prevent the criminal elements from getting guns? Our current system couldn't stop millions of people from crossing our borders, nor is it capable of stopping tons upon tons of drugs from flowing in either. There is no reason to assume that if they can smuggle in crack and heroin, that they won't smuggle in pistols and worse.

There's also this element, there are millions of Americans who own and use firearms safely and legally. Is it right to punish them because of events like these? Or can we even assume that all of them or enough of them will give up their weapons if the law demands they do so? My own experiences lead me to believe no. I certainly wouldn't surrender up my firearm back when I had one because a distant government decided I couldn't be trusted with it.

[Charon]

The second provision I can definitely see problems with. I don't really see the problem with the first provision though, so what are you seeing that I'm not Magi? Just curious.

The third and the fourth, I'm actually kind of appalled that those aren't already laws and quite frankly I would go even harder on the fourth provision. Unless you are a gun range, a gun store, or the US Military I don't see any reason that you would have to buy 1,000 rounds of ammunition. So I would say that if you do not have a license that you are, in fact, one of those exceptions, you cannot buy 1,000 rounds of ammo.

[Josh]

The second provision I can definitely see problems with. I don't really see the problem with the first provision though, so what are you seeing that I'm not Magi? Just curious.

The third and the fourth, I'm actually kind of appalled that those aren't already laws and quite frankly I would go even harder on the fourth provision. Unless you are a gun range, a gun store, or the US Military I don't see any reason that you would have to buy 1,000 rounds of ammunition. So I would say that if you do not have a license that you are, in fact, one of those exceptions, you cannot buy 1,000 rounds of ammo.

Uh, you can burn through a thousand rounds of ammo on a single day's shoot with friends and family. Unless you're handloading that kind of consumption gets expensive in a hurry, but it isn't a huge quantity. Plus if you have multiple guns you're buying loads of ball ammo for for target shooting, you can hit that limit in a hurry easily too. Ball ammo can be bought in hundred round lots, so if you have six different guns that you're stocking two hundred rounds of practice ammo for- 9mm, .45, .357, .308, 'O6... whoops, you just blew over the ammo limit and now you're a potential mass shooter.

Furthermore, what does having a huge stockpile of ammo do anyway? Even if there was some mass murder advantage to having, say, a thousand rounds over five hundred, there's no reason that a determined individual doesn't just learn what the reporting limit is and carefully stay under it while making multiple purchases at multiple vendors.

Looking at these provisions piece by piece:

First provision: So if I sell a guy a gun and throw in the ammo with it, is that now illegal? If I've got a spare stock of ammo to sell to make the rent this month, is that illegal?

Second provision: This prevents what, precisely? Presentation of valid ID won't prevent criminals from acquiring ammo, since there's no background check or anything attached to it. Felons don't have 'FELON CAN'T BUY AMMO!' on their driver's license, so far as I know. Useless.

Third provision: Records how? They have to record names of buyers? How long do they have to retain the records, and what use is this in preventing crime? Even the concept that 'The victim was shot with a .45 and you bought five boxes of .45 last week!' is legally useless.

Fourth provision: Won't stop anyone from acquiring mass quantities of ammo, like most of these schemes it only inhibits people making legal purchases.


At best this bill puts a hassle on dealers without actually doing anything preventative or useful. It's a kneejerk response from folks who are famous for ineffectual or dishonest kneejerk responses. Ammunition wasn't the problem here, it was the lightning strike of a lunatic.

[General Havoc]

The second provision I can definitely see problems with. I don't really see the problem with the first provision though, so what are you seeing that I'm not Magi? Just curious.

The third and the fourth, I'm actually kind of appalled that those aren't already laws and quite frankly I would go even harder on the fourth provision. Unless you are a gun range, a gun store, or the US Military I don't see any reason that you would have to buy 1,000 rounds of ammunition. So I would say that if you do not have a license that you are, in fact, one of those exceptions, you cannot buy 1,000 rounds of ammo.

Uh, you can burn through a thousand rounds of ammo on a single day's shoot with friends and family. Unless you're handloading that kind of consumption gets expensive in a hurry, but it isn't a huge quantity. Plus if you have multiple guns you're buying loads of ball ammo for for target shooting, you can hit that limit in a hurry easily too. Ball ammo can be bought in hundred round lots, so if you have six different guns that you're stocking two hundred rounds of practice ammo for- 9mm, .45, .357, .308, 'O6... whoops, you just blew over the ammo limit and now you're a potential mass shooter.

Furthermore, what does having a huge stockpile of ammo do anyway? Even if there was some mass murder advantage to having, say, a thousand rounds over five hundred, there's no reason that a determined individual doesn't just learn what the reporting limit is and carefully stay under it while making multiple purchases at multiple vendors.

Looking at these provisions piece by piece:

First provision: So if I sell a guy a gun and throw in the ammo with it, is that now illegal? If I've got a spare stock of ammo to sell to make the rent this month, is that illegal?

Second provision: This prevents what, precisely? Presentation of valid ID won't prevent criminals from acquiring ammo, since there's no background check or anything attached to it. Felons don't have 'FELON CAN'T BUY AMMO!' on their driver's license, so far as I know. Useless.

Third provision: Records how? They have to record names of buyers? How long do they have to retain the records, and what use is this in preventing crime? Even the concept that 'The victim was shot with a .45 and you bought five boxes of .45 last week!' is legally useless.

Fourth provision: Won't stop anyone from acquiring mass quantities of ammo, like most of these schemes it only inhibits people making legal purchases.

At best this bill puts a hassle on dealers without actually doing anything preventative or useful. It's a kneejerk response from folks who are famous for ineffectual or dishonest kneejerk responses. Ammunition wasn't the problem here, it was the lightning strike of a lunatic.

Strange as this is for me, I've got to agree, more or less, though perhaps not in as strong terms. Cheap ammo types such as .22 rimfire or 9mm are often bought in lots that large, for practice purposes or a large day on the range. This is trying to slam the stable door after the horse has bolted, and is a half-hearted measure that will do nothing but annoy people who are perfectly entitled to buy ammo, while not affecting those who should not be buying it.

[Josh]

Strange as this is for me, I've got to agree, more or less, though perhaps not in as strong terms.

It's okay, it's weird for me too.

If you'd like I can rail about you missing the fucking point and then you can quote me about how you got the fucking point. We're a little too close to the end of the year to be tampering with the cosmic balance, man.

[frigidmagi]

We got over 90 days. I can re-calibrate easy. Long as certain someones aren't tool hogs.

[Josh]

...I'll be out for a while, guys. Gotta stock up on ammo and corned beef for the now-inevitable apocalypse.

[General Havoc]

...I'll be out for a while, guys. Gotta stock up on ammo and corned beef for the now-inevitable apocalypse.

Shit... gotta get things back to normal. Gotta interpret that as a personal attack somehow.

Um... Aha! You always talk about the apocalypse! You're such a damn cynical bastard! Clearly you're only talking about the apocalypse because youwant to make us all feel bad!

Phew... that was close...

[Josh]

Look, I said 'now-inevitable' with a hyphen, motherfucker.

Um. A bit pressed for time today, so:

Words profanity more words more profanity words words




Insert bitingly sarcastic concluding line here<--------------

Okay, we're safe.