Police now using Predator drones on US Public

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#1 Police now using Predator drones on US Public

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latimes.com wrote:By Brian Bennett, Washington Bureau
December 10, 2011, 6:12 p.m.
Reporting from Washington— Armed with a search warrant, Nelson County Sheriff Kelly Janke went looking for six missing cows on the Brossart family farm in the early evening of June 23. Three men brandishing rifles chased him off, he said.

Janke knew the gunmen could be anywhere on the 3,000-acre spread in eastern North Dakota. Fearful of an armed standoff, he called in reinforcements from the state Highway Patrol, a regional SWAT team, a bomb squad, ambulances and deputy sheriffs from three other counties.

He also called in a Predator B drone.

As the unmanned aircraft circled 2 miles overhead the next morning, sophisticated sensors under the nose helped pinpoint the three suspects and showed they were unarmed. Police rushed in and made the first known arrests of U.S. citizens with help from a Predator, the spy drone that has helped revolutionize modern warfare.

But that was just the start. Local police say they have used two unarmed Predators based at Grand Forks Air Force Base to fly at least two dozen surveillance flights since June. The FBI and Drug Enforcement Administration have used Predators for other domestic investigations, officials said.

"We don't use [drones] on every call out," said Bill Macki, head of the police SWAT team in Grand Forks. "If we have something in town like an apartment complex, we don't call them."

The drones belong to U.S. Customs and Border Protection, which operates eight Predators on the country's northern and southwestern borders to search for illegal immigrants and smugglers. The previously unreported use of its drones to assist local, state and federal law enforcement has occurred without any public acknowledgment or debate.

Congress first authorized Customs and Border Protection to buy unarmed Predators in 2005. Officials in charge of the fleet cite broad authority to work with police from budget requests to Congress that cite "interior law enforcement support" as part of their mission.

In an interview, Michael C. Kostelnik, a retired Air Force general who heads the office that supervises the drones, said Predators are flown "in many areas around the country, not only for federal operators, but also for state and local law enforcement and emergency responders in times of crisis."

But former Rep. Jane Harman (D-Venice), who sat on the House homeland security intelligence subcommittee at the time and served as its chairwoman from 2007 until early this year, said no one ever discussed using Predators to help local police serve warrants or do other basic work.

Using Predators for routine law enforcement without public debate or clear legal authority is a mistake, Harman said.

"There is no question that this could become something that people will regret," said Harman, who resigned from the House in February and now heads the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, a Washington think tank.

In 2008 and 2010, Harman helped beat back efforts by Homeland Security officials to use imagery from military satellites to help domestic terrorism investigations. Congress blocked the proposal on grounds it would violate the Posse Comitatus Act, which bars the military from taking a police role on U.S. soil.

Proponents say the high-resolution cameras, heat sensors and sophisticated radar on the border protection drones can help track criminal activity in the United States, just as the CIA uses Predators and other drones to spy on militants in Pakistan, nuclear sites in Iran and other targets around the globe.

For decades, U.S. courts have allowed law enforcement to conduct aerial surveillance without a warrant. They have ruled that what a person does in the open, even behind a backyard fence, can be seen from a passing airplane and is not protected by privacy laws.

Advocates say Predators are simply more effective than other planes. Flying out of earshot and out of sight, a Predator B can watch a target for 20 hours nonstop, far longer than any police helicopter or manned aircraft.

"I am for the use of drones," said Howard Safir, former head of operations for the U.S. Marshals Service and former New York City police commissioner. He said drones could help police in manhunts, hostage situations and other difficult cases.

But privacy advocates say drones help police snoop on citizens in ways that push current law to the breaking point.

"Any time you have a tool like that in the hands of law enforcement that makes it easier to do surveillance, they will do more of it," said Ryan Calo, director for privacy and robotics at the Stanford Law School's Center for Internet and Society.

"This could be a time when people are uncomfortable, and they want to place limits on that technology," he said. "It could make us question the doctrine that you do not have privacy in public."

In North Dakota, Janke learned about the Predators last spring after local law enforcement was invited to a briefing on how two Customs and Border Protection drones based at the Grand Forks air base could assist police. He immediately saw advantages.

"We don't have to go in guns blazing," the sheriff said in a telephone interview. "We can take our time and methodically plan out what our approach should be."

Macki, head of the regional SWAT team, decided drones were ideal for spotting suspects in the vast prairie, where grassy plains stretch to the horizon except for trees planted to stem erosion from the winds.

"Anything where we need an advantage, we try to give them a call," said Macki, who declined to specify how often or where he has used the Predators. "We are very fortunate to have them in our area willing to assist us."

The first known use was June 23 after Janke drove up to the Brossart farm with a search warrant for cattle that supposedly had strayed from a neighboring ranch. The sheriff says he was ordered off the property at gunpoint.

The six adult Brossarts allegedly belonged to the Sovereign Citizen Movement, an antigovernment group that the FBI considers extremist and violent. The family had repeated run-ins with local police, including the arrest of two family members earlier that day arising from their clash with a deputy over the cattle.

Janke requested help from the drone unit, explaining that an armed standoff was underway. A Predator was flying back from a routine 10-hour patrol along the Canadian border from North Dakota to Montana. It carried extra fuel, so a pilot sitting in a trailer in Grand Forks turned the aircraft south to fly over the farm, about 60 miles from the border.

For four hours, the Predator circled 10,000 feet above the farm. Parked on a nearby road, Janke and the other officers watched live drone video and thermal images of Alex, Thomas and Jacob Brossart — and their mother, Susan — on a hand-held device with a 4-inch screen.

The glowing green images showed people carrying what appeared to be long rifles moving behind farm equipment and other barriers. The sheriff feared they were preparing an ambush, and he decided to withdraw until daybreak. The Predator flew back to its hangar.

At 7 a.m. the next day, the Predator launched again and flew back to the farm. The drone crew was determined to help avoid a bloody confrontation. No one wanted another Ruby Ridge, the 1992 shootout between the FBI and a family in rural Idaho that killed a 14-year-old boy, a woman and a deputy U.S. marshal.

This time, Janke watched the live Predator feed from his office computer, using a password-protected government website called Big Pipe.

Around 10 a.m., the video showed the three Brossart brothers riding all-terrain vehicles toward a decommissioned Minuteman ballistic missile site at the edge of their property. The sensor operator in Grand Forks switched to thermal mode, and the image indicated the three men were unarmed.

Janke signaled the SWAT team to move in and make the arrests. No shots were fired.

A search of the property turned up four rifles, two shotguns, assorted bows and arrows and a samurai sword, according to court records. Police also found the six missing cows, valued at $6,000.

Rodney Brossart, his daughter Abby and his three sons face a total of 11 felony charges, including bail jumping and terrorizing a sheriff, as well as a misdemeanor count against Rodney involving the stray cattle. All have been released on bail. Calls to Rodney Brossart were not returned Saturday. The family is believed to be living on the farm.
From a purely tech standpoint, using drones to extend police abilities to patrol makes sense.

Given how those police have been conducting themselves lately, and who they've been protecting of the American populace, this, together with other military purchases done by the police lately, make this seem a little ominous.
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#2 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

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As long as they're unarmed Predator drones, I don't have more of a problem with this than with CCTV cameras all over the place. Well, at least not much more.
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#3 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by B4UTRUST »

I agree with Rhoenix here. When you have citizens who can lay hands on automatic weapons, military grade body armor and NBC gear among other things, increasing the intelligence resources of the police and law enforcement seems like a fairly sensible and good thing. However, when one looks at the police of this nation, their attitudes and actions and who they seem to take marching orders from, giving them the means and ability to spy on the public seems less sensible. Hell, the CIA's got them now too. Not to mention the fact that these aren't just surveillance drones. The entire article refers to these things as the Predators. They're not.

By the way, for those who don't keep up with drones and military aircraft, etc. The Predator B drone they refer to in the article? Yeah, it's most commonly referred to under another name. The General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper. Among other things the Reaper has a 950hp engine vs the Predator's 115hp engine, giving it the capacity to carry more than 10x the amount of ordinance of the Predator and fly over 3x faster. This is also the platform for our lovely Air Force's new wide area surveillance sensor system, otherwise known as 'Gorgon Stare.' Designed to take large scale video and photo and have it analyzed by on-ground intelligence techs or Mind's Eye(DARPA's latest A.I. project), it's going to give you battlefield intel that will be amazingly useful. One drone in the right place can give you real-time video of troop and vehicle movements, asset positions, etc for miles and miles around. Of course Gorgon Stare is still in the development stage and reports of it are mixed(though I'll say that a fair amount of the reports are overstating problems and understating capabilities of the system from what I've heard. Quite a few of the people I use to work with are now working at Eglin with this or out at Cannon on the Reaper squadron there.).

So yeah, the idea that DHS and the Border Patrol have these? And that our police forces can have access to this? Fuck that. I have enough worries about my own government without adding this to it.
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#4 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by rhoenix »

Here's my main issue - and I'll use an example.

Police can, without a warrant or other notification, attach a GPS-enabled tracking device on your car, and leave it there. They have successfully argued in court that because the bugging takes place "in public areas," and since hey, a private citizen left their property (the car) in a public space, they don't need a warrant to bug it.

With enough drones, the police won't have to bother with the grunt work of actually stalking someone's car, and stealth-installing anything. With the same justification, the U.S. Government can spy freely on U.S. citizens.

And, as B4 pointed out, these are not the tiny cameras with propeller types. These are the types made to carry ordinance in the form of missiles, and plenty of them.

Can you say for certain that we won't see a bill up for a vote at some point soon, allowing police to arm the drones "for the public good and protection?"
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#5 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by frigidmagi »

The drones are really just an expansion of the police helicoptor idea if you ask me. I'm more worried about all the armored vehicles that various police departments are getting. Complete with corporate sponsorship!
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#6 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

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The Minx wrote:As long as they're unarmed Predator drones, I don't have more of a problem with this than with CCTV cameras all over the place. Well, at least not much more.
Minx, I have two problems with this. The first is that right now they're unarmed Reaper drones capable of carrying a good variety and amount of armaments should it be needed/wanted. Right now they're unarmed. When, not if, that changes is the real question to me.

And secondly, I have major issue with CCTV cameras as well. To state the often used phrase: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. Who watches the watchmen (or who guards the guardsmen if you go for the more classic literal translation). I am admittedly pretty paranoid. I'm also one of those people who do believe in some conspiracy theories. I will admit these things all day long. Now, that being said, the idea of anyone with any sort of authority having the means, ability and power to watch my life like that bothers me. I understand the idea that if you know you're being watched, there is a statistical decrease in probability to commit a crime since you're more likely to be caught. I get that. However, the notion of them doing it disturbs me. I already have to acknowledge the fact that the government is capable of viewing and analyzing every email I sent, every forum post I type, every conversation I have on IM and every text message I sent on my phone. We have Echelon. We have Carnivore. We nearly had the Clipper chips during the 90's. We've had bills narrowly shot down that would have made it mandatory for all programmers of encryption software to create back doors and give the government the keys. We have a corrupt and abusive group of people in charge and we keep stupidly voting more of them into power. We let them create offices like DHS and the TSA and give them levels of authority and power that reach far beyond their purpose. We get things like the Patriot Act. We just had a bill pass that gave the U.S. military the ability to detain citizens of the U.S. indefinitely without a trial, without charge, without legal counsel. To me, it's not just cameras. It's the ever increasing list of ways that our rights, our freedoms and our own privacy is being consumed and destroyed. You say you're fine with CCTV cameras. What else are you fine with? And to ask another question, with regard to the idea of 'Who watches the watchmen'; Do you know how many places it's illegal to record or photograph a law enforcement officer doing their job? They can slap up cameras everywhere, watch us everywhere we go, see what we do, who we talk to, where we go. But if we try to monitor their activities, keep them honest and law abiding? Doesn't ever seem to work out the same. And that's another reason I dislike any means of wide public surveillance.
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#7 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by rhoenix »

frigidmagi wrote:The drones are really just an expansion of the police helicoptor idea if you ask me. I'm more worried about all the armored vehicles that various police departments are getting. Complete with corporate sponsorship!
Honestly, it's because of those sorts of purchases that I consider this drone purchasing program as part of that, and therefore as all dubious.
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#8 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

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I'm really not entirely OK with CCTVs, but I mind them a lot less than the Patriot act provisions like wireless wiretaps for example. Police surveillance in public spaces is one thing, but spying on personal documents and conversations is something else again.
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#9 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by B4UTRUST »

frigidmagi wrote:The drones are really just an expansion of the police helicoptor idea if you ask me. I'm more worried about all the armored vehicles that various police departments are getting. Complete with corporate sponsorship!
Frigid, how many police helicopters have the same capabilities? I will give you that most of the helicopters used by police forces would have some sort of FLIR camera system, lights, etc. But to my knowledge(and correct me if I'm wrong) most don't have weapons systems. I mean you could put a sniper or something in one, yes. But as far as I'm aware they generally don't have the capability to deploy a lot of heavy weapons. New York, of course, is the exception as we know they do have some helicopters with mounted .50cal machine guns. But most police helicopters don't have that. However, every Reaper drone has the capability of carrying over a dozen Hellfire missiles as well as laser-guided bombs and JDAM. They're also testing Stinger air-to-air missiles on them too.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all with regards to the armored vehicles they're getting, so please don't think that. I have serious concerns about that as well. I'm just trying to point out that expansion of police helicopters with strictly surveillance UAVs is one thing. Expanding it to include military hunter/killer UAVs is another, in my opinion. Yes, I know that right now they're not being used in that capacity. However, as I said before, I think it's a matter of when, not if, that this will change.
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#10 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by B4UTRUST »

The Minx wrote:I'm really not entirely OK with CCTVs, but I mind them a lot less than the Patriot act provisions like wireless wiretaps for example. Police surveillance in public spaces is one thing, but spying on personal documents and conversations is something else again.
Alright, perhaps I misunderstood you before. I apologize for that if I did. I read it as you not having major issues with the idea of CCTV. However, I think what I said is still valid. Both of those things(cameras and reading of personal documents) can be argued that they help keep us safe. But both erode the concepts of privacy and start to strip us of rights and freedoms. Neither of them, to me, are good things.
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#11 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by rhoenix »

Benjamin Franklin wrote:He that would give up permanent liberty for temporary safety, deserves neither liberty nor safety.
These particular genies (Carnivore, and others) are very difficult to put back into the bottle once uncorked. Letting those whose jobs it is to police other American citizens get military equipment for their role as a civilian authority is not something that makes me comfortable.
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#12 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

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B4UTRUST wrote:Alright, perhaps I misunderstood you before. I apologize for that if I did. I read it as you not having major issues with the idea of CCTV. However, I think what I said is still valid. Both of those things(cameras and reading of personal documents) can be argued that they help keep us safe. But both erode the concepts of privacy and start to strip us of rights and freedoms. Neither of them, to me, are good things.
That's no problem. Looking back, I wasn't terribly clear anyway. :smile:

But I think it's a sliding scale here... some things are worse than others. Of course, a sliding scale can just as easily become a slippery slope with each new addition to the police state being added as previous ones become normalized in people's minds. :???:
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#13 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by frigidmagi »

B4, compared to everything else going on right now? I'll worry about it when someone actually start's talking about arming the drones. As it stands, drones can't make any arrest, they can't beat an Army Ranger to the point of skull fracture and they can't shot a Marine 23 times in the chest in his own home. Let's fix problems we already have instead of panicking about problems that may come down the pipe.
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#14 Re: Police now using Predator drones on US Public

Post by B4UTRUST »

frigidmagi wrote:B4, compared to everything else going on right now? I'll worry about it when someone actually start's talking about arming the drones. As it stands, drones can't make any arrest, they can't beat an Army Ranger to the point of skull fracture and they can't shot a Marine 23 times in the chest in his own home. Let's fix problems we already have instead of panicking about problems that may come down the pipe.
You know what? Fair enough. A very valid point. I'll concede that.
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