The morality of prostitution?

Hashava · Post by **Hashava** » Mon May 22, 2006 11:08 pm

Working out well?
Do you think their unions can solve the real problems?
What about trafficking in women?
Prostitution as a job might be legal (also in the Netherlands, by the way), but it's horrible illegal side effects are still there :-S

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Tue May 23, 2006 2:56 am

Hashava:

Some activities will always be there- theft, murder, prostitution, no matter what the legality, will always occur in any society.

Now, with actions such as theft, murder, rape, etc., they cannot be made legal and must be punished.

Prostitution is a different matter altogether. When it is illegal and hence underground, there can be little to no oversight or protection of those involved.

Our institutions are not perfectable, but by bringing it out into the light, we can act to mitigate the more unsavory aspects.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:58 am

Nevermind that with the legalisation of prostitution, Germany joined scandinavia as home of some of the lowest sex crime rates in western nations.

EDIT: dear motherfucking god in heaven that was stupid.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:03 am

Ace Pace wrote:Nevermind that with the legalisation of rape, Germany joined scandinavia as home of some of the lowest sex crime rates in western nations.

Ace, you might want to do a little bit of editing.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:07 am

Cynical Cat wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Nevermind that with the legalisation of rape, Germany joined scandinavia as home of some of the lowest sex crime rates in western nations.
Ace, you might want to do a little bit of editing.

Fixed.

Dear mother of the holy undead, I fucked up.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:59 am

Yes. Yes you did. Dear god that was funny.

In other news, with the legalization of assault and murder, Detroit has lowered its violent crime rate to that of a peaceful suburb.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:33 pm

Ace Pace wrote:
Cynical Cat wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Nevermind that with the legalisation of rape, Germany joined scandinavia as home of some of the lowest sex crime rates in western nations.
Ace, you might want to do a little bit of editing.

Fixed.

Dear mother of the holy undead, I fucked up.

Speaking of undead, this is the second time this thread has been ressurected.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:53 pm

I want it on record that this time, it wasn't me who said it

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:57 pm

Batman wrote:I want it on record that this time, it wasn't me who said it

But forum history is written by the moderators.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Wed May 24, 2006 2:53 pm

So noted Batman, this time it's some other poor slob's fault. (course Batman is hardly poor or a slob is he?)

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » Wed May 24, 2006 5:07 pm

If prostitution was legal I'd be all for it. At the end of the day every many pays for it one way or ther other. Cut out the middle man and give the money you'd pay for a series fo good dates and get what you want straight away.

There are many attractive women and men who are addicted to sex, why not make some good money for doing what you love?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Wed May 24, 2006 5:11 pm

So, is this thread officially still active or not?

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Thu May 25, 2006 3:31 am

Yeah, sure, if people still want to discuss it, we can.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Thu May 25, 2006 1:35 pm

Lord Pounder wrote:If prostitution was legal I'd be all for it. At the end of the day every many pays for it one way or ther other. Cut out the middle man and give the money you'd pay for a series fo good dates and get what you want straight away.

There are many attractive women and men who are addicted to sex, why not make some good money for doing what you love?

In theory, it sounds nice. But as I have said earlier, it is going to have to be hyper-regulated because it is going to be an "industry" which is rife with corruption, and prime for abuse, by it's very nature. At least in the US... the mob is all over prostitution as it is. If we legalize it, there is no reason it wont stay in their hands.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Sun May 28, 2006 11:51 am

Comrade Tortoise wrote:In theory, it sounds nice. But as I have said earlier, it is going to have to be hyper-regulated because it is going to be an "industry" which is rife with corruption, and prime for abuse, by it's very nature.

"By its very nature" how? So just because it's related to sex, then it should be rife with corruption and prime for abuse?

Comrade Tortoise wrote:At least in the US... the mob is all over prostitution as it is. If we legalize it, there is no reason it wont stay in their hands.

Here's a hint: the mob is all over prostitution because it is, ahem, *illegal*, not because it is related to sex. The business of alcoholic beverage was also rife with corruption and prime for abuse during the era of Prohibition (Al Capone, anyone?).

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Mon May 29, 2006 10:28 am

Here's a hint: the mob is all over prostitution because it is, ahem, *illegal*, not because it is related to sex. The business of alcoholic beverage was also rife with corruption and prime for abuse during the era of Prohibition (Al Capone, anyone?).

And you think once it is made legal their grubby mits wont still be in it? Give me a break. They pretty much control all labor unions on the east coast, and those are legal.

"By its very nature" how? So just because it's related to sex, then it should be rife with corruption and prime for abuse?

Nice strawman asshole.

No, not SHOULD be. Believe it or not, I enjoy sexual activity between consenting adults. I am not some fundy sex-hating christian you are dealing with so dont insert their motives into my head.

It isnt that is SHOULD be, but rather that, given human nature, it WILL be.
Sex is a very easy thing to abuse someone with. Even in upscale brothels, people still get raped. People are still held there against their will, and you can disguise that sort of thing very easily (all it takes is a bit of phsychological abuse and they wont tell anyone)

Again, I am not saying it shouldnt be legal. I am saying that a very very very close eye is going to have to be kept on it. But of course, you are going to ignore that disclaimer in favor of distorting my argument some more.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Mon May 29, 2006 3:30 pm

Comrade Tortoise wrote: And you think once it is made legal their grubby mits wont still be in it? Give me a break. They pretty much control all labor unions on the east coast, and those are legal.

Evidence for such a sweeping claim of control of almost all East Coast unions?

I would also like to address the Red Herring nature of response to KAN's remark. How is the mobs move into labour unions a refutation of KAN's claim and not the state post-Prohibition liquor industry?

It isnt that is SHOULD be, but rather that, given human nature, it WILL be.
Sex is a very easy thing to abuse someone with. Even in upscale brothels, people still get raped. People are still held there against their will, and you can disguise that sort of thing very easily (all it takes is a bit of phsychological abuse and they wont tell anyone)

People also get abused in their homes. They get raped everywhere. It is however, much safer for prostitutes in the the Red Light district of Amerstdam than most other places. People die and shady dealing happen in the construction industry all the time and its regulated to cut down on that happening. We're certainly not going to stop building houses because the mob has a presence in the construction industry.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:03 pm

Evidence for such a sweeping claim of control of almost all East Coast unions?

I may have been over-zealous, but they do have their gruby mits in them.

http://www.answers.com/topic/mafia

Code: Select all

Mafia (mÃ¤'fēÃ¤) , name given to a number of organized groups of Sicilian brigands in the 19th and 20th cent. Unlike the Camorra in Naples, the Mafia had no hierarchic organization; each group operated on its own. The Mafia originated in feudal times, when lords hired brigands to guard their estates in exchange for protection from the royal authority. The underlying assumption of the Mafia was that legal authorities were useless and that justice must be obtained directly, as in the vendetta. Italian attempts to curtail the Mafia have suffered from political corruption and the assassination of judges.

Through emigration the organization spread to the United States (where it was sometimes called the Black Hand). It is involved in many illegal operationsâ€”trade in narcotics, gambling, prostitution, labor union racketeeringâ€”and certain legal enterprises, such as trucking and construction, in the United States. In Nov., 1957, more than 60 of its alleged leaders were surprised at a secret meeting at Apalachin, N.Y. About one third of them were convicted of obstructing justice, but the convictions were reversed on appeal. In recent years, the Mafia has been linked with money-laundering and police corruption and has also been hampered by defections. While slowing its activities in extortion and racketeering in the 1980s and 90s, the contemporary Mafia has expanded into such white-collar criminal enterprises as fraud in health insurance, sales of prepaid telephone cards, and illegal stock market deals.

I would also like to address the Red Herring nature of response to KAN's remark. How is the mobs move into labour unions a refutation of KAN's claim and not the state post-Prohibition liquor industry?

It is not a red herring. it shows legitimate precident for mafia control over legitimate enterprises, even when those enterprises are regulated by the state.

People also get abused in their homes. They get raped everywhere. It is however, much safer for prostitutes in the the Red Light district of Amerstdam than most other places. People die and shady dealing happen in the construction industry all the time and its regulated to cut down on that happening. We're certainly not going to stop building houses because the mob has a presence in the construction industry.

And if you havent noticed, I have advocated no such position in regard to prostitution. Just the opposite. I am merely elucidating how hard it is going to be to do so. But of course the point is missed again and again.

How many times do I have to repeat myself and say that prostitution should be LEGAL FOR REGULATION PURPOSES?

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Mon May 29, 2006 5:23 pm

1) I wasn't arguing against the existence of mafia presence in some unions, merely against your overly broad statement. I accept you concession.

2) KAN's point was that the mafia was heavily involved in the alcohol industry when it was illegal and its presence diminished when it was legalized. Your rebuttal did not address his point at all. That the mafia is involved in legal enterprises does not answer KAN's point that it will be harder for them to control prostitution if it is legalized so yes it is a red herring.

3) Yes, you agree it should be legalized and regulated, but you also decided to post about rapes and abuse occuring in even regulated brothels. If you didn't want those points addressed, you shouldn't have posted them.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:02 pm

2) KAN's point was that the mafia was heavily involved in the alcohol industry when it was illegal and its presence diminished when it was legalized. Your rebuttal did not address his point at all. That the mafia is involved in legal enterprises does not answer KAN's point that it will be harder for them to control prostitution if it is legalized so yes it is a red herring.

Oh, it will be harder. But they will still manae to control it in some respects. Of course there are large differences between prostitution and booze production. Firstly, there was a pre-existing commercial manufacturing enterprise which took control over alcohol production after prohibition ended. No such mechanism exists within prostitution. And given the mafia's pre-existing ability to control legal enterprises through extortion and blackmail, there is no real reason to think they would not maintain control over a large share of the supply of prostitutes.

3) Yes, you agree it should be legalized and regulated, but you also decided to post about rapes and abuse occuring in even regulated brothels. If you didn't want those points addressed, you shouldn't have posted them.

Well, answer me this. Who becomes a prostitute? Will that change when prostitution becomes legal? I will wager that it wont,at least not significantly, because we still culturally look down on prostitutes (I am not saying we SHOULD, just making an observation)

Now, will the people who control the supply of prostitutes change? There is nothing to take up the slack. ANd the mafia does excel at controling, at least partially, legal enterprises which they have an interest in through extorting the legal owners. So that wont change much either.

Now you tell me, is there going to be a higher percentage of abuse than in the home? How about rape? How about worker abuse and shady dealings compared to other businesses which you mentioned like construction?

I am going to wager that it will be higher. For no other reason than because no one gives a damn about prostitutes (and this is tragic) enough to do much when they get hurt. A construction worker who gets whacked by the mom is going to at least generate some outcry from his family. WHat about a 16 year old lesbian who got kicked out by her parents who the mob faked identification for and forced into the brothel? Who is going to clamor for justice for her?

Before we can fix that problem, we are going to need years of social engineering to get rid of the stigma of being a prostitute.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:14 pm

Your making broad claims about organized crime control Comrade Tortoise. Do you have any data from all the western countries where prostitution is legal and regulated to back any of it up?

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Mon May 29, 2006 6:57 pm

Cynical Cat wrote:Your making broad claims about organized crime control Comrade Tortoise. Do you have any data from all the western countries where prostitution is legal and regulated to back any of it up?

I am not sure the data would necessarily be relevant, but I will see if I can find some. The same criminal entities dont exist there, and they dont have the same historical/cultural...heritige that we do (the growth of the mafia with alcohol prohibition)

But lets see... There isnt a whole lot of research being done on prostitution (go figure, serial killers are much more interesting) so this can take some time.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Mon May 29, 2006 11:45 pm

I don't have a source handy but in my world politics class it came out that in the Netherlands there were a large amount of women who were forced into it via immgratation scams.

In fact according the data presented the majority of ladies of night in Holland were foreign born. Can anyone prove/disprove that?

Shark Bait · Post by **Shark Bait** » Tue May 30, 2006 7:24 am

Comrade Tortoise wrote:But lets see... There isnt a whole lot of research being done on prostitution (go figure, serial killers are much more interesting) so this can take some time.

Pffff yeah I could have told you that.

Listen, my only fear for the whole prostitution being legal thing is what kind of risk does this put the girl in? Now granted its probably less than illegal prostitutes face, but still the girl would probably be in a small area say a â€œbedroomâ€

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:16 pm

Ideally, in order to be officially licensed to operate as a cathouse, one would request security systems in place; a 'panic button', direct telephone line, and camera monitors to check the room periodically. Of course, all that's expensive and rather unlikely to happen, but that's what I thought of reading the post above... if some guy doesn't want his face on the security camera, meh, don't go to a whorehouse then...

LibriumArcana.Games

The morality of prostitution?

My stance is....

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