KOTOR 1 vs KOTOR 2

[Stofsk]

I haven't done a poll in ages.

Which one do you like? I am talking about the Star Wars CRPGs that some consider to be the best SW games ever released (if they never played TIE Fighter) or one of the best SW games ever released (if they HAVE played TIE Fighter). Give reasons. Or don't, see if I care.

[Narsil]

KotOR1 has a comprehensive story, it's complete from beginning to end, and it's got some memorable characters. KotOR2 has only the latter of these... and not in as great a number.

The answer, good sir, is obvious.

[Stofsk]

KOTOR 2 does have a comprehensive story. And I think its characters are more memorable than KOTOR 1's.

I'd be happy to discuss this with you but you have to give me something to work with here.

[Narsil]

KOTOR 2 does have a comprehensive story. And I think its characters are more memorable than KOTOR 1's.

Okay...

With KotOR2... it was rushed. It started promising but there was a slow decline until you hit Telos' surface... where it became somewhat okay from a stage which promised more. It then continued this way across the four planets, but started deteriorating somewhat as you saw that bits were obviously missing, and Nar Shaddaa was a big, big, big mess. Then it hit a wall...

This wall was the final meeting between you and the Jedi. The Jedi who'd suddenly, after seeing you be the uber-benevolent person that you were, decided to strip you of the force without any warranted provocation. Kreia came in and murdered them, at that point; which is where the MESS began.

You travelled to Telos, and with all that foreshadowing, faced off against a Dark-Side version of Atris, killed Nihilus the Wimp, and travelled to Malachor for the uber-rushed ending. This was actually a fun part, in some strange way, as you could tear through armies of Dark Jedi and Sith without any form of impediment.

And then was the Cheapest Boss Battle Ever;

Sion McHeal'imself. You tore through him a dozen times, using the same persuade skill that you neglected (well, I didn't, but I know many people must have) to attempt to reason with him over-and-over-and-over until eventually he caved in.

And then was Kreia and the Infamous Floating Lightsabres Trick.

After that; it was the nonending which left so many boggling questions that you just had to go whaaaaa...

[Shark Bait]

I liked the way the skills and such were fixed up in Kotor2 but the plot was just not as good as KOTOR 1

[Stofsk]

With KotOR2... it was rushed. It started promising but there was a slow decline until you hit Telos' surface... where it became somewhat okay from a stage which promised more. It then continued this way across the four planets, but started deteriorating somewhat as you saw that bits were obviously missing, and Nar Shaddaa was a big, big, big mess.

Elaborate.

This wall was the final meeting between you and the Jedi. The Jedi who'd suddenly, after seeing you be the uber-benevolent person that you were, decided to strip you of the force without any warranted provocation. Kreia came in and murdered them, at that point; which is where the MESS began.

I didn't mind that because I saw it as a ploy on Kreia's part to bring the Council out of hiding so that she could kill them all at once. And as for the Council being jerks... they did sentence me to exile to begin with. The point of the plot is that the old gets thrown away and the new take over, which is why you train your party members as Jedi. You're making an NJO here.

And then was the Cheapest Boss Battle Ever;

Sion McHeal'imself.

How is that different to Darth Malak and his collection of Jedi Happy Meals in tanks?

And then was Kreia and the Infamous Floating Lightsabres Trick.

Don't have a problem with the floating lightsabers trick.

After that; it was the nonending which left so many boggling questions that you just had to go whaaaaa...

Yeah it was rushed, but I can forgive it because it hints at something more. Which actually is pretty good storytelling.

[Stofsk]

I liked the way the skills and such were fixed up in Kotor2 but the plot was just not as good as KOTOR 1

Breaking down items and creating them was an excellent addition to the game. Also using high skill ranks in other skills such as Awareness or Computer in dialogue options was neat. Even having a high Intelligence or Wisdom can help too.

Influence was good, the fact that you can only get information out of certain characters if and only you have a certain amount of influence with them.

[Narsil]

Elaborate.

It just seemed... incomplete, somehow. I just disliked the planet's layout, and the bounty hunter's plot seemed... rushed.

[Stofsk]

I loved Nar Shadaa. KOTOR 1's city planet was crap in comparison. Not to say that I didn't like Taris but it doesn't hold a place in my heart because the whole section of the Endar Spire and Taris felt really tedious at points.

Nar Shadaa felt gritty. Which is what it's supposed to feel like. And I loved the Jekkjekktar alien bar, and Goto. The refugee sector was one of those 'yeah it feels like a slum' feelings.

Ditto for Onderon and Dxun. Those places were just cool. The opening in Peragus had this great atmosphere which the opening on Taris in the first game lacked. In Peragus there was not only the feeling like you had to beat the clock, but also find out what happened to the miners in the facility. Watching the logs felt downright spooky and THAT'S why it made a better opening. Taris also had the whole "We're on a planet with an occupying army that wants to kill us" but it didn't feel like that. The fact that you could run around past Sith soldiers and they didn't even challenge you put that into stark light.

I'm in the camp that both games are excellent and I love them both, but I like KOTOR 2 more for a few reasons:

1. I like the changes in gameplay, such as lightsaber forms, new items, new feats and powers and classes etc. That you can create items is another good thing too.

2. I like the structure of the plot more than the first one. This is not to say the first one's bad, only that I like the second one more. Both games grabbed me and didn't let go.

3. I like the planets more in the second one than in the first one. The Taris city planet wasn't as good as the Nar Shadaa city planet. Dantooine felt very boring in the first one and more interesting in the second one. Korriban in both games was cool. There was also a different link to them in the first one to the second one - what I mean is this: in the first one the planets are linked by the starmaps, while in the second one the planets are linked by the plot. The starmaps being 'found' is hard to reconcile with the fact that they seem to be basically out in plain view (Tatooine it's in a cave close to the only settlement on the planet, Dantooine it's in a tomb next to the Jedi council, only Korriban makes sense because those tombs are being studied by a dedicated archological dig) or in the case of Manaan and Kashyyyk so inaccessable you strain to think how Revan found it originally.

But in KOTOR 2 the planets are linked together in subtle ways. Peragus feeds Telos its fuel, so that's the first place you go to after you leave Peragus. After Telos where do you go? Do you go to Onderon to check out what some of the background characters were saying? Do you go to Nar Shadaa to find out who is trying to kill you? Korriban or Dantooine because that's where you last remember Jedi or Sith congregating? And the whole 'The Republic is being attacked economically' is something I don't think we've really ever seen in Star Wars before. It's all well and good to have constant warfare be a source of adventure, but as Goto remarks it is unsustainable. What the Mandalorians and Revan failed to do is being accomplished due to poor economic management. I don't know why but I found that to be a neat twist to an otherwise tired cliche of galactic warfare.

(and yes, I am aware that it is really hard to reconcile Peragus being the sole bearer of fuel to the Telos restoration program, and its loss being so hard felt, that said, I point to Manaan from KOTOR 1 as being the sole producer of medical supplies in the entire Republic; both games are flawed in this way)

4. I like the characters in KOTOR 2 more than the ones in KOTOR 1. Although I should say perhaps that KOTOR 2 had fewer truly annoying characters. Kreia's constant mentoring throughout the game up until the endgame also makes more sense than Revan's retraining on Dantooine by the Jedi Council which seemed to take days or weeks if you were being conservative.

Now, the twist in KOTOR 1 was brilliant. I loved it to death and when I first played it I had to finish it. I stayed up hours and hours because I HAD to finish it after the twist was revealed. There wasn't anything similar in KOTOR 2, but in some ways I think this sets it apart for the better. It showed that they weren't trying to clone themselves in the sequel but try something different. For that I think they succeeded.

[Narsil]

I did like K2, just nowhere near as much as K1. I must state that one of the things I didn't like about K2 was that it showed an obvious minimalism streak. I mean; one backwater planet fuels the entire Republic rebuilding effort, They're a GALACTIC Republic, they should try acting like it for once.

[Stofsk]

Yeah I pointed this out as an obvious flaw, but KOTOR 1 had it with Manaan. Both games are flawed in that way, but KOTOR 2 was the only one that pushed the implications of this flaw to its logical progression. If the project only had one source of fuel and that source of fuel was destroyed then there's some serious shit happening. And suddenly it makes sense when Goto is despairing about the fall of the Republic, and how all these little things individually might not amount to much but can have wider repurcussions.

And with Manaan, depending on what you decided to do with the Firaxan shark you could end up destroying the one source of Kolto in the entire fucking galaxy. And yet you can still buy medpacs.

[Narsil]

It seems obvious, thus, that Bioware has never heard of Bacta, and Obsidian has never heard of Hypermatter.

[Stofsk]

There is always the slim possibility neither of those things had been invented yet at this stage of SW history. It is set 4'000 years before ANH.

[Narsil]

There is always the slim possibility neither of those things had been invented yet at this stage of SW history. It is set 4'000 years before ANH.

And Hyperspace has been around for longer still.

[Something Awesome]

All of the added goodness, like Forms, new powers and feats, prestige classes, etc., puts Kotor 2 on top for me. The story is as good as the first one, just a bit different. If only it was finished...

And then was Kreia and the Infamous Floating Lightsabres Trick.

I got the official strat guide with the game, and while it's got a few interesting things. For example, in the fight with Atris, screenshots show her with the name "Darth Traya" and her model has the pale face/dark robes thing going. It has a lot of things that don't quite show up in the game.

One thing that I noticed was in the list of feats and powers in the back, a few of them aren't in the game. I don't recall a "Guard Stance" feat or a "Droid Interface" feat, for example. Another one is "Kinetic Combat" for Kreia, which allows her to use weapons without her hands, and a picture shows her wielding a saber like in the final fight (the pic also shows Kreia with both hands in a blank background). So, what I guess I'm trying to say is, supposedly she would have been able to do that while she was on your team.

[Lord Pounder]

It seems obvious, thus, that Bioware has never heard of Bacta

In SW timeline Bacta wasn't discovered by the Galaxy untill the middle of the Clone Wars. Refernece The Bacta War by Michael J Stackpole.

[Narsil]

It seems obvious, thus, that Bioware has never heard of Bacta

In SW timeline Bacta wasn't discovered by the Galaxy untill the middle of the Clone Wars. Refernece The Bacta War by Michael J Stackpole.

I've not read that one, my mistake then.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

The original pwned the sequel, mostly because the latter was buggy and incomplete. If KotOR2 had been properly finished and fleshed out... I think it could've been much better than the original.

[Josh]

Concur with Gaius.

The characters were MUCH better in KotoR II than I. As Ghost Rider put it over at SDN, Carth 'Smolders with Generic Rage' just wasn't a very compelling character, for example.

Furthermore, the story was far more unique.

But the execution, due to the rushed completion, made it far less satisfying for me. A properly executed sequel could redeem it, but as it stands KotoR II was a massively missed opportunity. It should've been one of the best CRPGs of all time, damn it.

[Narsil]

Which is why I prefer KotOR1: KotOR2 had so much potential... KotOR1 actually went somewhere with it.

[Cynical Cat]

I have to say I like KOTOR II better than KOTOR. They're both very good and it should be said I'm just playing KOTOR II now when most of the bugs have been finished and the ending is coherent, although missing a part or two.

The better timing of the character interaction cut scenes, the way you get good use of more of your characters (the splitting up for the second part of Onderon and Duxn in particular), the influence system, the item creation, and the hints at a KOTOR III really make the game.

I didn't feel any minimalism. The Republic is on the verge of collapse and is clearly not functioning very well at the moment and dealing with a host of crisises. The planets in question aren't keys because their individual failures are disasterous, but because the consequences of that failure will have a ripple effect that will affect dozens of systems at the least.

Those who complain about KOTOR II's incompleteness have a good point. It was rushed out the door and it did have bugs and pieces are missing. But to me, what is there is good enough to make it a better game. KOTOR II stands on the shoulder of a giant and reaches higher.

[Stofsk]

I have to say I like KOTOR II better than KOTOR. They're both very good and it should be said I'm just playing KOTOR II now when most of the bugs have been finished and the ending is coherent, although missing a part or two.

You downloaded a patch or something?

[Cynical Cat]

I have to say I like KOTOR II better than KOTOR. They're both very good and it should be said I'm just playing KOTOR II now when most of the bugs have been finished and the ending is coherent, although missing a part or two.

You downloaded a patch or something?

I installed it and it automatically updated (I only got the game last week). I don't know how much it changed, but its quite playable and the ending is missing probably two scenes, but it makes sense and it does give you some answers.

[Stofsk]

Things I know that were cut:

• the HK-50 factory,
• the love triangle that ends with one of the jilted falling to the darkside and trying to kill the one you chose (so if you're playing male and you swapped sauce with Visas rather than Handmaiden, Handmaiden goes darkside and tries to kill Visas. If you played female and you chose Disciple over Atton, Atton tries to kill Disciple)
• The resolution to G0-T0 and the mass shadow detonation.

The first one is more of interest if you actually care about HK-47 and his subquest. Since I don't it's never bothered me that it was cut. As for the last two, I think both being cut leads to that notion of there being no 'ending' in the game. Sure you kill Darth Traya but what happened to G0-T0 and the remote? And of course finding out about your romantic interest is always important.

[Cynical Cat]

Those are still not restored.

EDIT: I really liked saving Visas from the darkness and bringing her to the light.