France's gay marriage fight

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#1 France's gay marriage fight

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BBC
While same-sex marriage is now well established in some European countries, proposals to introduce it in France have provoked a strong backlash.

Two weeks ago, French opponents of gay marriage and adoption staged one of the biggest demonstrations of popular feeling that the country has seen in years.

Some 340,000 people, according to police, marched through central Paris to oppose a government bill that goes before the National Assembly on Tuesday.

Supporters of gay marriage have staged their own shows of strength, and believe they have public opinion on their side. This weekend some 125,000 rallied in Paris, police said.

But it is the scale of the "manif pour tous", against gay marriage and adoption, that took many outside observers by surprise.

Normally it is the political left in France that puts on these mass shows of support.

But this was unmistakeably a conservative protest, backed - in the main - by right-wing parties and the principal religions.

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When I see the people who protest against gay marriage, I am just so disappointed for France. The family today is not the same as the family yesterday”

Magali
Gay marriage supporter
So what does it show?

The existence of a silent French majority, slow to act but formidable when aroused?

The latent powers of the Catholic Church to mobilise the faithful when an issue is sufficiently grave?

Provincial hostility to a metropolitan elite that dominates debate and puts an ever smoother liberal spin on issues of right and wrong?

Yes, a bit, to all of the above. But there are a couple of other factors too.

Shrewd pitch
First, the antis have run an intelligent and media-savvy campaign.

From the start they recognised the dangers of being seen as the twitching arm of reactionary homophobia.

So they have made sure they constitute a broad-based "citizens" movement, with no formal links to churches or politicians.


Observers have been surprised that so many people came out in public opposition to gay marriage
And in their spokeswoman - a performer who goes by the pseudonym Frigide Barjot - opponents of gay marriage have found a perfect antidote to charges that they are superannuated bigots.

A 50-year-old, blonde-haired extrovert who describes herself as an "anarchist of love", Barjot has become a national figure in recent weeks, with constant appearances on radio and television.

She takes care at every interview to state that her arguments are not directed at gay people, but at the proposed law, as framed.

"If what was on offer were a law that further enshrined rights for gay couples, that enriched their unions, and got rid of the discriminations and injustices that undoubtedly still exist - then I would support it," she says.

Instead - according to Barjot - what President Francois Hollande has promised is a law that will "de-structure" society by "destroying the concept in law of mother and father" and changing the time-honoured essence of the family.

Everybody affected
The other reason why gay marriage has provoked such a powerful debate in France has to do with the nature of the country's institutions.

France is practically unique in Europe in making it obligatory, for couples who marry, to do so in a civil ceremony, with potential jail terms for priests who conduct a religious ceremony first.

In other countries, priests, rabbis or imams who carry out weddings are also acting as civil officials, and the marriage conducted in church, synagogue or mosque is duly registered in law.


"We read the Bible gaily": gay marriage supporters at a march in Strasbourg
This is the case in other "Catholic" countries like Spain and Portugal, which have recently adopted gay marriage. Indeed the absence of long-lasting controversy over the issue in Spain and Portugal is often adduced as an argument by supporters of gay marriage in France.

However - as a study by the liberal French think-tank the Thomas More Foundation has noted - in Spain and Portugal people who oppose gay marriage can continue to get married in church, content with the feeling that "their" marriage has nothing to do with the civil one organised by the state and now open to gay people.

But in France, there can be no such separation. The civil marriage in France is compulsory, and so if there is a change in the civil code on marriage, it affects everybody.

Again, this may help explain why so many people feel so strongly about the issue.

The antis have certainly been emboldened by the success of their 13 January demonstration.

On Friday they were received at the Elysee Palace, where they restated to President Hollande their insistence that the issue be put to a referendum.

They argue that to extend full-blown marriage to gay people is to play sorcerer's apprentice with the most important building-block of society.

They say that the right to gay adoption will remove from children the fundamental right to have a father and a mother.

Manifesto pledge
The pressure has had some effect. A clause that would have legalised the use of sperm donations to enable lesbian couples to have children has been dropped - though it may be reintroduced later in a separate bill.

However for all the spring in their stride, opponents of gay marriage are also aware that their chances of blocking France's law are small at best.

One reason is that gay marriage was clearly presented in President Hollande's election manifesto last May. The French people cannot argue that it has been foisted upon them unexpectedly.


The BBC's Hugh Schofield said the organisers of the 13 January rally did not want to be seen as homophobic
And for the president - who is under pressure on the economic front for not being sufficiently left-wing - sticking to gay marriage is a useful way of burnishing his progressive credentials.

But the bigger reason why the anti movement will have difficulty building on their momentum is that gay marriage is actually supported by most of the French.

It is not a huge majority, but polls are consistent in showing that around 55-60% believe it is the right thing to do. (In comparison, only about 50% support adoption, and there is a majority against assisted births.)

Over the weekend, demonstrations took place in Paris and across France in support of the government's bill.

There the arguments in favour of gay marriage got their outing: that it is a logical expression of equality; that it is just; that there is no evidence of it leading to a breakdown in society; that children brought up by gay couples are perfectly happy; that such children already exist by the tens of thousand so need legal recognition; that heterosexual marriage is hardly sacrosanct when so many end in divorce, and when so many children are born out of wedlock.

As a young woman called Magali at Sunday's demonstration in Paris put it: "When I see the people who protest against gay marriage, I am just so disappointed for France.

"They talk about family first, but they should see that society has changed. The family today is not the same as the family yesterday. We have to rethink the whole concept of family."

Arguments that a majority of the French - and a bigger majority among the French young - would appear to agree with.
I admit I get way to much joy out of this. I mean this is a fight over a rather central right, if you cannot form a family, you're not really part of society. Now that doesn't mean you have to form a family, but the legal right and ability is important.

That said, I really do get an unholy amount of glee out of watching the oh so superior French doing something... So American.
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#2 Re: France's gay marriage fight

Post by General Havoc »

But Garvin, aren't you aware that right wing opposition to Gay Marriage is strictly an American phenomenon? This is clearly just BBC's efforts to smear La France.
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#3 Re: France's gay marriage fight

Post by Josh »

I get the schadenfreude, I really do.

Still, I hate this shit.

There's been some question as to whether this issue is going to end up being essentially resolved in most places like interracial marriage ended up being, or if it's going to end up a bleeding sore the way Roe v. Wade did. I think it'll take the former course once we manage to shift these holier-than-thou fucks off their rock. I also think the latest spurt of intensity on it is a last gasp. It may take a bit longer, but the momentum is going to the good.

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#4 Re: France's gay marriage fight

Post by General Havoc »

There is no way this turns into the Abortion issue. Abortion is a raw subject with a large segment of the population because it is regarded as child-murder. Moreover this is a viewpoint that can be defended. Accuse pro-life activists of what you will, mindless bigotry is not, by and large, the root of the opposition to it. Indeed it's one of the only remaining talking points in existence in which the right wing position has some moral authority to it.

Gay marriage will, one day, go the way of interracial marriage. It will one day be regarded as a subject that nobody can understand the importance of to us dinosaurs who lived back in the old times. Abortion, legal or not, will never be regarded as "meaningless".
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#5 Re: France's gay marriage fight

Post by Josh »

I think that vein of thought (gay marriage like abortion) is kind of being promulgated in a hopeful fashion by the fuckos who are against it. Probably with a eye toward being able to cripple or roll it back the way they've rolled back Roe v Wade in places.
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#6 Re: France's gay marriage fight

Post by General Havoc »

They can promulgate it as a matter of whatever they like, the two issues have nothing to do with one another in even the broadest definition. The fundamentals at work in the mindset of the opposing side could not possibly be more distinct.

The mere fact that right wing nuts believe in both unfettered access to guns and mandatory prayer time in schools does not mean that owning assault rifles and praying in a school are the same act done for the same reasons. The reason Roe v. Wade has been rolled back in some places is because abortion is a highly difficult subject for a vast swatch of Americans, myself included. Gay marriage is an issue that affects most people not at all. The tie between the two is fictional and usually suggested because someone has an axe to grind (which axe varies).
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#7 Re: France's gay marriage fight

Post by frigidmagi »

I'd have to agree with Havoc. I mean look, I get queasy about abortion. The fact that's there no definite scientific consensus as to when life begins and my own belief in an soul... Makes it a sensitive twitchy topic. Then there are the morality concerns. I find myself frankly in a what is the lesser evil situation which makes me deeply unhappy.

Gay marriage on the other hand... My decision was made when it was made staggeringly clear that most people... The vast majority of people... Do not choose their orientation. At that point even the theology of the situation was rendered very clear. To be blunt, I have no qualms and no fucks to give on which side I am on.
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#8 Re: France's gay marriage fight

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

The fact that's there no definite scientific consensus as to when life begins and my own belief in an soul... Makes it a sensitive twitchy topic.
I am borrowing your post as a spring board. I am not arguing against you per se.

It isn't so much a lack of scientific consensus. It is a question about what it means to be a person. If we want to talk about when a fetus is capable of certain developmental and cognitive milestones (like the theoretical capacity to feel pain unconsciously around week 26) etc, that stuff is pretty well set in stone. We know that stuff. The question is what that MEANS. Does the mere fact that a thing has human DNA mean that we should treat it as a person from which flows all rights, or is something more required? If so, what? Is it a soul? If so, when does the soul get implanted (I should hope it is in at least the 2nd trimester though, otherwise >50% of those souls end up dying through natural means). If not, when in development? When the heart beats? Why the heart? When it can feel pain, theoretically? When it is conscious? The fetus is not conscious until shortly before or even AFTER birth. What then?

Even if it is a person, what do we do about the rights of the mother? What if she will die without an abortion? How do we deal with the fact that forcing someone to keep a baby against their will is a violation of a woman's right to bodily control?

As much as I mock a lot of the pro-life movement, I cannot deny that depending on one's initial assumptions, a great many number of positions can be reasonably and consistently advanced by people of good intention. It is when they are NOT being reasonably and consistently advanced that I start mocking people (A lot of anti-abortion rhetoric for example focuses on the mother "taking responsibility" for her actions, which is just another way of saying she is a filthy slut who ought be punished. Then there is that "legitimate rape" bullshit).

That is why it is and will continue to be a sticking point. Abortion is not an issue that is only being clung to by fossilized bigots. It is a thing that any reasonable person can find reason--even if they are on the same side--to disagree.

To put another spin on it, for me, the state of being a person is reliant upon the capacity of a mind to be aware of itself and interact with the world--even if that mind is not currently perceiving the world due to unconsciousness, and even if that mind is in a constructed reality. So, if someone creates a fully sapient AI, or uplifts and New Caledonian Crow, as far as I am concerned, it is a person and worthy of every bit of ethical concern I would grant to a fellow human being. This means that if someone kills/unplugs it without due process of law, that person is a murderer. If this was a matter of policy in which sapient AIs were considered property to be disposed of at will, I would consider that Slavery AND Murder (if relevant), and I might well engage in some extreme actions to save those lives, viewing those actions as justified.

The gay marriage issue is completely different. There are no arguments against it that do not originate as rationalizations for bigotry. The only thing that comes close is the reproduction thing, and when asked if we should also deny marriage to infertile couples, they backtrack so fast you would think they are in some strange and suicidal reverse-gear-only version of nascar (which incidentally, I would pay money to see).

That is not to say you could not snow people over with bad arguments, appeals to tradition, and fear-mongering, but those are also not persistent. A few years after gay marriage is made legal, opposition from the snowed-over evaporates when they realize that their marriages are fine, society has not collapsed, and once they see Ace and Gary move in next door with their well-behaved children and throw fabulous block parties. It is a matter of people being afraid of new things, and once the thing is no longer new, they are not afraid of it anymore. The hard-core opponents will fossilize in their bigotry and 30 years from now you will be apologizing for their anti-gay ranting to your kid's best friend when they come over for an easter egg hunt.
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