LibriumArcana.Games

Alright I got to admit something. Prison planets have always seem a bit of a nut idea to me. I mean you're going to take all your worst elements dump them on planet that anyone can find and then somehow secure them? What stops someone from coming in with a enough firepower and "liberating" all these bad boys who now have grudge against you and your soceity? Besides doesn't using a whole planet seem a bit expensive?

Wouldn't an hollowed out astroid be easier to secure and harder to break from? Escaply if the inmates are depenent on outside sources for air?

I guess it depends entirely on what kind of practical security measures you can employ.

For example, if the world can be effectively sealed with a planetary shield, containment and security might not be a such problem.

As to excessively expensive, the world could be worthless from any profit point of view.

If the world is worthless why spend the cash to make a prison on it? If the world has worth, why waste it on prisoners?

It makes sense in 40K, which has penal colonies, but most of the time it is a dumb idea.

frigidmagi wrote:If the world is worthless why spend the cash to make a prison on it?

Why do we make prisons at all? A planet would offer a very large and, by definition, isolated place to place massive numbers of criminals for incarceration. For placing criminals from just one planet (say Earth), yeah, it seems pretty wasteful. You wouldn't be using anything more than a insignificant fraction of the planet's available area. But if the civilization in question has millions of worlds (and or a large criminal population), coupled with working means by which to establish such a system, the idea begins to seem practical.

If the world has worth, why waste it on prisoners?

Isn't that a bit like asking why do we bother building prisons now when there are people today without homes or shelter?

Why do we make prisons at all?

Strawman Walper I never suggested that we shouldn't make prisons nor did I ever question the need for them. I asked if a Prison Planet was the most efficent way to create a prison and if it was really that bright. Also I pointed out that a hallowed out astroid might be a better idea. So don't try to change the subject.

Isn't that a bit like asking why do we bother building prisons now when there are people today without homes or shelter?

No Walper it's like asking why build a fucking city for prisoners. Try to keep to the topics brought up in this thread or make your own.

Walper, I want to you tell me how you and this triangle are similar


Also, I wish to inform you that the scarecrow you built does not have a degree in thinkology


The point of this thread is to determine whether a planet is an appropriate use of resources for prisoners. They can never be secured, not externally, but internally. With a prison that large, they would be able to overwhelm any guards stationed, and if they use planetary shields, not every prisoner is a stupid brute. They might be able to bypass those electronic defenses.

If they take over and escape, that is a lot of dangerous convicts. If they take over and stay, then the world has to be recaptured, and that is expensive.

An asteroid prison is far more cost effective and secure, because they cant hold their own atmo, which means they can be easily evacuated of atmo in the event of a prison-riot.

I find it hard to imagine that any society has such a tremendous crime rate that jails on a planet or in orbit would be so badly flooded in comparison to the normal law abiding population as to warrant an entire planet.

I mean, seriously, what the fuck? If any society has hit that rate, they are most likely locking up loads of innocent people, and deserve to have a planetary rebellion occur.

frigidmagi wrote:

Why do we make prisons at all?

Strawman Walper I never suggested that we shouldn't make prisons nor did I ever question the need for them. I asked if a Prison Planet was the most efficent way to create a prison and if it was really that bright. Also I pointed out that a hallowed out astroid might be a better idea. So don't try to change the subject.

I wasn't attempting to change the subject, I pointing out any type of prison system will require investment and resources.

Isn't that a bit like asking why do we bother building prisons now when there are people today without homes or shelter?

No Walper it's like asking why build a fucking city for prisoners.

Planets don't get built. They're just there. Throw a shield around it and you just turned it into a cell. Depending on the technological sophistication of the society, even a shield might not be necessary. It's not like getting off a planet is easy.

Try to keep to the topics brought up in this thread or make your own.

I was on topic. You merely mistook my point as an attempt to change the subject when all I was pointing out is that any type of prison system will require investment and resources. The right planet would require less investement and maintaince than your asteroid idea.

Hotfoot wrote:I find it hard to imagine that any society has such a tremendous crime rate that jails on a planet or in orbit would be so badly flooded in comparison to the normal law abiding population as to warrant an entire planet.

I mean, seriously, what the fuck? If any society has hit that rate, they are most likely locking up loads of innocent people, and deserve to have a planetary rebellion occur.

Well, if you have a million worlds, with only one in a million individuals having commited a serious crime, you have a population of a billion criminals right there. You can build huge numbers of prisons throughout your civilization incorperated into your society, requiring construction, maintaince, guards, heavy security, etc. Or you can throw them onto some prison planet where they are isolated and almost effortlessly contained. Without the need for guards, construction, even potentially supplying them in any way.

The only "planet" prison I ever considered was the Pluto Prison Colony; the Earth Union's worst criminals get sent there. Of course, all of Pluto isn't a prison, but let's just face the facts that the planet's pretty worthless, other than EW sensors and maybe a strategic missile site or two.

Of course, the PPC is also completely self-contained on a world where the permafrost is methane, so escape is damn near impossible.

The point I'm adding to this discussion is that, like with the asteroid idea, the only way a prison "world" makes any sense is if it's not on any M-class world.
- Ra

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Walper, I want to you tell me how you and this triangle are similar

We're both sharp.

Also, I wish to inform you that the scarecrow you built does not have a degree in thinkology

I don't build scarecrows, and we're not interested is seeing your toy dolls CT.

The point of this thread is to determine whether a planet is an appropriate use of resources for prisoners.

Given the scale I've suggested (societies large enough to statistically provide millions or even billions of criminals), the idea becaome practical. Although even throwing just a few thousand criminals onto a planet would be cheap, assuming the means of transporting there is so (although I've been going by the assumption the planetary liftoff and space travel concept isn't an issue).

They can never be secured, not externally, but internally.

How much more secure can you get than throwing a person onto a isolated prison planet? What are they going to do? Jump off of it?

With a prison that large, they would be able to overwhelm any guards stationed,

No guards necessary.

and if they use planetary shields, not every prisoner is a stupid brute. They might be able to bypass those electronic defenses.

With what? Stones, spears and bearskins? You seem to be under the mistaken impression I'm suggesting we build a comfortable society for these criminals. I'm not. I'm suggesting some useless mudball where survival is, at best, possible. If need be, drop shipsments of very basics such as food and clothing could be done. It's a prison meant as punishment, not transferring from one comfortable society to another.

If they take over and escape, that is a lot of dangerous convicts.

They're already roaming "free" on the planet. They simply have none of advanced society's comforts.

If they take over and stay, then the world has to be recaptured, and that is expensive.

Recapture the world? Since the planet is populated soley by criminals...who are we recapturing it for?

An asteroid prison is far more cost effective and secure, because they cant hold their own atmo, which means they can be easily evacuated of atmo in the event of a prison-riot.

I say a planet would be a lot cheaper and more secure.

We're both sharp.

No, that triangle is obtuse

Given the scale I've suggested (societies large enough to statistically provide millions or even billions of criminals), the idea becaome practical. Although even throwing just a few thousand criminals onto a planet would be cheap, assuming the means of transporting there is so (although I've been going by the assumption the planetary liftoff and space travel concept isn't an issue).

What about the waste of resources A planet has valuable resources. resources which would be wasted by putting a prison on the entire planet.

How much more secure can you get than throwing a person onto a isolated prison planet? What are they going to do? Jump off of it?

Or build a ship. You put millions of people on a planet and dont expect them to build, for instance, a city?

You put millions or billions of people in an unsecure unguarded planet. These people come from a variety of backgrounds, and in those numbers would easily be capable of building an infastructure and escaping.

With what? Stones, spears and bearskins? You seem to be under the mistaken impression I'm suggesting we build a comfortable society for these criminals. I'm not. I'm suggesting some useless mudball where survival is, at best, possible. If need be, drop shipsments of very basics such as food and clothing could be done. It's a prison meant as punishment, not transferring from one comfortable society to another.

Those planetary shields have to have generators you idiot. They can take those down by hand if need be. it wouldnt be especially hard. Once that is done, it would be easy for someone to start rescuing prisoners.

I say a planet would be a lot cheaper and more secure.

You ignore opportunity cost.[/quote]

I don't build scarecrows, and we're not interested is seeing your toy dolls CT.

I must be looking at a different thread.

frigidmagi wrote:Alright I got to admit something. Prison planets have always seem a bit of a nut idea to me. I mean you're going to take all your worst elements dump them on planet that anyone can find and then somehow secure them? What stops someone from coming in with a enough firepower and "liberating" all these bad boys who now have grudge against you and your soceity? Besides doesn't using a whole planet seem a bit expensive?

It depends on the size of the society. For a galactic empire with a population in the magnitude of 1e23 people, for example, if even one in a billion people committed a serious crime, then there are 1e14 individuals who need to be incarcerated. You'll have trouble fitting that many people on just one planet.

Wouldn't an hollowed out astroid be easier to secure and harder to break from? Escaply if the inmates are depenent on outside sources for air?

If the planet is sufficiently barren of resources, the inmates will be just as dependent upon outside contacts for food and air; furthermore, for a large society, an asteroid won't be large enough.

Why use just one astroid? There are after all more astroids than planets. For that matter why not just have each system handle it's own criminal element that would greatly reduce the population requirement would it not?

Also would fitting a barren planet with no atmosphere devour more resources than an astroid?

Numbers that large, are, frankly, insane. I am going to go out on a limb and say that there arent enough habitable worlds for that many humans.

lets see, there are ~1e11 stars in this galaxy, not all of which have plnets which are habitable
to get those numbers, you would need 1e12 people per star system.

Humanity will never be able to support those numbers. Each of those worlds would be an aconomic net drain. like rome in the later empire. Each planet and its resources will be exquisitly valuable.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Numbers that large, are, frankly, insane. I am going to go out on a limb and say that there arent enough habitable worlds for that many humans.

lets see, there are ~1e11 stars in this galaxy, not all of which have plnets which are habitable
to get those numbers, you would need 1e12 people per star system.

Humanity will never be able to support those numbers. Each of those worlds would be an aconomic net drain. like rome in the later empire. Each planet and its resources will be exquisitly valuable.

I was thinking ten million Coruscants. 1e12 is a trillion people; assuming one planet per system, that would be a population density of less than one person per square metre: several built-up megalopolitan areas per planet would suffice.

Furthermore, this ignores the fact we can build stations; in fact, it's not inconceivable for a majority of humans to live on stations scattered throughout the galaxy, I think.

frigidmagi wrote:Why use just one astroid? There are after all more astroids than planets. For that matter why not just have each system handle it's own criminal element that would greatly reduce the population requirement would it not?

Also would fitting a barren planet with no atmosphere devour more resources than an astroid?

I'm thinking this might be an economy of scale situation: it's more efficient to do things in bulk. So it would be easier to fit out a planet with the prerequisite jail facilities than it would be to fit ten thousand asteroids. The same logic applies to a jail per system.

Surlethe wrote:

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Numbers that large, are, frankly, insane. I am going to go out on a limb and say that there arent enough habitable worlds for that many humans.

lets see, there are ~1e11 stars in this galaxy, not all of which have plnets which are habitable
to get those numbers, you would need 1e12 people per star system.

Humanity will never be able to support those numbers. Each of those worlds would be an aconomic net drain. like rome in the later empire. Each planet and its resources will be exquisitly valuable.

I was thinking ten million Coruscants. 1e12 is a trillion people; assuming one planet per system, that would be a population density of less than one person per square metre: several built-up megalopolitan areas per planet would suffice.

Furthermore, this ignores the fact we can build stations; in fact, it's not inconceivable for a majority of humans to live on stations scattered throughout the galaxy, I think.

You dont need to tell me about scientific notation. A planet cannot support that many individuals. They need more space than one person per square meter, and that doesnt take into consideration infastructure. Plumming, power, food storage and distribution, entertainment, roads, workplaces. Government. Then there is the problem with food production and shipping, and those city planets will not be able to provide for those needs. Space stations will be even more of a net drain.

All this assumes that there are habitable planets in each and every planetary system.

Food production will have to take place on at least some of those planets (I would argue most of them), which increases the population density on other planets, or on stations. WHich further magnifies the per capita infastructural costs.

Now, lets talk about the planet itself. In order to keep the prisoners from being sprung by their friends, there needs to be a planetary shield. That thing needs power. Which can easily be disrupted by a person with a hand-made shovel, some saltpeter, charcoal, and sulfur. The power supply needs to be defended, and maintained. The generaors need to be maintained. The reactor needs to be resupplied in person... with a drop ship

Now lets take a more realistic crime rate. 2.3% violent crimes reported (lets assume for this advanced civ, a 100% conviction rate)

that is a criminal population of 2.3e21

this will require many, many planets to house.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

Given the scale I've suggested (societies large enough to statistically provide millions or even billions of criminals), the idea becaome practical. Although even throwing just a few thousand criminals onto a planet would be cheap, assuming the means of transporting there is so (although I've been going by the assumption the planetary liftoff and space travel concept isn't an issue).

What about the waste of resources A planet has valuable resources. resources which would be wasted by putting a prison on the entire planet.

Like I said, pick some worthless mudball planet that has little or no value.

How much more secure can you get than throwing a person onto a isolated prison planet? What are they going to do? Jump off of it?

Or build a ship.

Very expensive. Especially since you don't need to build a planet. They're already there.

You put millions of people on a planet and dont expect them to build, for instance, a city?

CT, are you trying to be this dense? Do you have any idea what kind of infrastructure and level of technology is required to build a city? Nevermind the fact I have previously mentioned the planet in question should have little to no resources capable of being utilized in such a way. Furthermore, the people being put on these planets are criminals. Those who couldn't obey an advanced civilization's rules or operation beforehand. But now we're supposed to expect them to hold hands and build advanced cities out of dirt and rock?

You put millions or billions of people in an unsecure unguarded planet.

The shield secures and guards the planet. All you'd need on top of that is some pretty basic monitoring of systems and the system as a whole. I'm not suggesting a "dump them and forget them" approach.

These people come from a variety of backgrounds, and in those numbers would easily be capable of building an infastructure and escaping.

So it took humans on a resource rich planet Earth thousands of years to build society as it is today...yet you think that a large population of criminials are going to hold hands together, and build vast cities and advanced technology on a planet that has already been established as resource poor or non existent? Just what the hell are you smoking?

With what? Stones, spears and bearskins? You seem to be under the mistaken impression I'm suggesting we build a comfortable society for these criminals. I'm not. I'm suggesting some useless mudball where survival is, at best, possible. If need be, drop shipsments of very basics such as food and clothing could be done. It's a prison meant as punishment, not transferring from one comfortable society to another.

Those planetary shields have to have generators you idiot. They can take those down by hand if need be. it wouldnt be especially hard. Once that is done, it would be easy for someone to start rescuing prisoners.

We haven't even established where and how such shield generators function, CT. What if the generators are in low orbit? Going to take them out by hand then? Even if on the surface, what if they are buried under a few kilometers of the planet's crust? What if the shield generators themselves are also shielded so no individual could get near them?

It's not like it's rocket science to put a few basic security measures in place, CT.

I say a planet would be a lot cheaper and more secure.

You ignore opportunity cost.

[/quote]

No, I don't. A planet as submitted would require, most likely, far less maintaince than the asteroid prison idea. An asteroid is going to require guards, atmosphere shipments, artificial gravity, etc. Not to mention many such asteroids for large populations.

Surlethe wrote:

frigidmagi wrote:Why use just one astroid? There are after all more astroids than planets. For that matter why not just have each system handle it's own criminal element that would greatly reduce the population requirement would it not?

Also would fitting a barren planet with no atmosphere devour more resources than an astroid?

I'm thinking this might be an economy of scale situation: it's more efficient to do things in bulk. So it would be easier to fit out a planet with the prerequisite jail facilities than it would be to fit ten thousand asteroids. The same logic applies to a jail per system.

It also depends on the planet's attributes. It may have a sustainable atmosphere, maybe even some very basic necessities of survival without outside assistance.

1*10^23 = 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000/1,000,000,000,000 = 100,000,000,000

1*10^23 / 1*10^12 = 1*10^11

Of if you prefer the shortcut, 23-12 = 11

100 billion star systems, in other words, not ten million. The Milky Way is considered to have billions of stars (exact number escapes me) but even assuming some bad-ass terraforming, that's an awful high fraction of inhabitable worlds you're dealing with there, like potentially 100%, and that means binary and trinary systems are working overtime!

Essentially, the population number you've quoted is only realistic of a truly intergalactic civilization. Of course, they're probably the only sort that could get away with cramming a trillion people onto a planet.

Concerning stations, consider for a moment that you are being limited by mass here. Take out all the iron from the asteroid belts. Make an O'Neill Habitat (or a bunch). How many people can that support? Where would you get the extra raw materials, if you are inhabiting literally every planet or solar system in the galaxy?

Meanwhile, consider: if you're putting people in space stations anyway, and stations hold much smaller groups of people, why not just have each star system put their criminals in a space station and let everyone else live on the planets? Why consolodate all the criminals onto one world with virtually no supervision? Is there no chance for parole? No laws against cruel and unusual punishment?

frigidmagi wrote:What stops someone from coming in with a enough firepower and "liberating" all these bad boys who now have grudge against you and your soceity?

Not sure if anyone else has already pointed this out in the thread, but I'm going to mention the obvious parallel of the penal colonies of early Australia. I would go so far as to say virtually all SF notions of "prison world" are drawing on this exact metaphor, though not all of them may be aware of it. Why didn't someone come sweeping across the Indian Ocean with a big fleet and bust all those guys out to help them overthrow England?

--The Elder Dan

elderdan wrote:

frigidmagi wrote:What stops someone from coming in with a enough firepower and "liberating" all these bad boys who now have grudge against you and your soceity?

Not sure if anyone else has already pointed this out in the thread, but I'm going to mention the obvious parallel of the penal colonies of early Australia. I would go so far as to say virtually all SF notions of "prison world" are drawing on this exact metaphor, though not all of them may be aware of it. Why didn't someone come sweeping across the Indian Ocean with a big fleet and bust all those guys out to help them overthrow England?

--The Elder Dan

I would've figured it's obvious no real military power would want a bunch of criminals as a military force.