The Wikileaks Papers

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#1 The Wikileaks Papers

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So as we all know by now, the website Wikileaks has recently dumped hundreds of thousands of diplomatic cables from the US and other countries. And the reactions have been as might be expected. Here are some stories about some of these documents:

It begins here: (link)
(CNN) -- The online whistle-blower site WikiLeaks began publishing more than 250,000 diplomatic cables from U.S. embassies around the world Sunday, spawning sharp condemnation from the White House and congressional leaders.

WikiLeaks, which said its servers were under electronic attacks Sunday afternoon, said the documents represent the largest-ever disclosure of confidential information and give the world "an unprecedented insight into the U.S. government's foreign activities."

"The cables show the U.S. spying on its allies and the U.N.; turning a blind eye to corruption and human rights abuse in 'client states'; backroom deals with supposedly neutral countries; and lobbying for U.S. corporations," the site's editor-in-chief and spokesman, Julian Assange, said in a statement released Sunday evening.

"This document release reveals the contradictions between the U.S.'s public persona and what it says behind closed doors -- and shows that if citizens in a democracy want their governments to reflect their wishes, they should ask to see what's going on behind the scenes."

But White House spokesman Robert Gibbs condemned the release, warning that publishing the documents would jeopardize "our diplomats, intelligence professionals and people around the world who come to the United States for assistance in promoting democracy and open government."

"By releasing stolen and classified documents, WikiLeaks has put at risk not only the cause of human rights but also the lives and work of these individuals," Gibbs said. "We condemn in the strongest terms the unauthorized disclosure of classified documents and sensitive national security information."

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton reached out to leaders of eight countries over the weekend about the leaks, State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said Sunday. Those countries included Germany, Saudi Arabia, Britain, France, Afghanistan and the United Arab Emirates, Crowley said.

The New York Times and four European newspapers that had received the documents in advance began publishing excerpts earlier Sunday. Many of them detail conversations on sensitive issues between American officials and leaders in the Middle East, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

The major topics in the documents include:

-- Pressure from U.S. allies in the Middle East for decisive action to neutralize Iran's nuclear program. According to one cable, King Hamad bin Isa al Khalifah of Bahrain told Gen. David Petraeus, then the top U.S. commander in the region, that the United States must curb Iran's nuclear program by whatever means necessary. "The danger of letting it go on is greater than the danger of stopping it," the king is quoted as saying. Similarly, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia implored Washington to "cut off the head of the snake" while there was still time, according to a cable cited by the British newspaper The Guardian.

-- Conversations between Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh and Petraeus about military action against al Qaeda militants in Yemen. A cable about their January meeting reports Saleh as saying: "We'll continue saying the bombs are ours, not yours." At that point, according to a cable sent by the then-U.S. ambassador in Yemen, the deputy prime minister joked "that he had just 'lied' by telling Parliament" that Yemeni forces had carried out the strikes.

-- Washington's efforts to have highly enriched uranium removed from a Pakistani research reactor. In a cable sent in May 2009, the U.S. ambassador in Islamabad said Pakistan was refusing to schedule a visit by American technical experts. The ambassador said that a Pakistani official had told her: "If the local media got word of the fuel removal, 'they certainly would portray it as the United States taking Pakistan's nuclear weapons.' "

-- Negotiations with governments over the transfer of prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay. According to The New York Times, "Slovenia was told to take a prisoner if it wanted to meet with President (Barack) Obama, while the island nation of Kiribati was offered incentives worth millions of dollars to take in a group of detainees."

-- Concern that the Chinese government was involved in global computer hacking. One cable cited by The New York Times said a Chinese contact had told the U.S. Embassy in Beijing that the Politburo had directed "the intrusion into Google's computer system" earlier this year.

WikiLeaks said the full set included 251,288 cables sent by American diplomats between the end of 1966 and February 2010. Of those, 8,017 originated from the office of the secretary of state, and more than 15,600 are classified as secret, it said in a statement announcing the release.

WikiLeaks said the documents will be released in stages "over the next few months" to allow readers to digest them.

"The subject matter of these cables is of such importance, and the geographical spread so broad, that to do otherwise would not do this material justice," it said. "We owe it to the people who entrusted us with the documents to ensure that there is time for them to be written about, commented on and discussed widely in public, something that is impossible if hundreds of thousands of documents are released at once."

Sen. John Kerry, the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, called the disclosure "reckless."

"This is not an academic exercise about freedom of information and it is not akin to the release of the Pentagon Papers, which involved an analysis aimed at saving American lives and exposing government deception," Kerry, D-Massachusetts, said in a written statement.

"Instead, these sensitive cables contain candid assessments and analysis of ongoing matters and they should remain confidential to protect the ability of the government to conduct lawful business with the private candor that's vital to effective diplomacy," the statement said.

The documents posted include often-unfavorable commentaries on a variety of international leaders, as well as coverage of almost every major issue of recent years. The United States had warned Assangethat publishing the papers would be illegal and could endanger peoples' lives.

Rep. Peter King, the ranking Republican on the House Homeland Security Committee, on Sunday called on the Obama administration to prosecute Assange. In a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, King said WikiLeakshas provided "material support to terrorist organizations" by releasing the documents.

"There should be no misconception that Mr. Assange passively operates a forum for others to exploit their misappropriation of classified information," King wrote. "He actively encourages and solicits the leaking of national defense information. He pursues a malicious agenda, for which he remains totally immune to the consequences of his actions."

The site said it was already under fire Sunday afternoon. In a statement posted on Twitter, WikiLeakssaid it was experiencing a distributed denial of service (DDOS) attack. That's an effort to make a website unavailable to users, normally by flooding it with requests for data.

But WikiLeaks posted information on the new documents Sunday afternoon on a site with a different web address.

The cables being detailed Sunday follow two similar releases by WikiLeaks earlier this year. In July, the site released more than 70,000 U.S. military reports from the war in Afghanistan, and nearly 400,000 more reports about operations in Iraq in October.

The site indicated last week that a new batch was coming, telling followers on Twitter that the new release would be seven times the size of the Iraq documents.

"Intense pressure over it for months," the group stated. "Keep us strong."

In addition to the Times, four European newspapers -- Britain's The Guardian, Le Monde in France, Der Spiegel in Germany and El Pais in Spain -- had prior access to WikiLeaks documents. CNN has not had advance access to the documents because it declined to sign a confidentiality agreement with the site.

Retired Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the former U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, said the documents reveal sensitive U.S. government positions and put diplomats at risk "for their candidness and their reporting."

"I think it's important for WikiLeaks and its ilk to recognize the damage that they're doing by releasing this information and be held responsible for the damage that occurs from releasing this information," said Kimmitt, who served in the State Department and as the U.S. military spokesman in Iraq during the Bush administration.

But Scott Shane, one of the authors of the Times report, said the disclosures are most notable for their "behind-the-scenes stories -- how we speak to other countries and how they speak to us."

Shane told CNN the newspaper does not believe its reporting will result in drastic consequences, and that the Times redacted some names and information in the cables after discussions with State Department.

"Our judgment was that while there certainly would be repercussions, there would be strained relations perhaps with certain countries or certain leaders, we did not think that there would be lives at stake," he said. "We did not think that there would be important intelligence operations that would be compromised by the material we're actually publishes.

The U.S. State Department's legal adviser, Harold Hongju Koh, said Saturday that his agency had had spoken with representatives from the Times, the Guardian and Der Spiegel about 250,000 documents that WikiLeaks had provided to them. Kohdescribed the distribution as the "illegal dissemination of classified documents."

Some interesting things about this include the claim that US diplomats had been ordered to spy on people.

Of course, the State Department was quick to deny this: (link)
Washington (CNN) -- U.S. officials came to the defense of the secretary of state Tuesday, insisting that Hillary Clinton did not order State Department staff to spy on United Nations diplomats, as suggested by a diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks.

The defense came as WikiLeaks found Julian Assange told Time magazine, a sister publication of CNN, that the she should quit.

"She should resign, if it can be shown that she was responsible for ordering U.S. diplomatic figures to engage in espionage in the United Nations, in violation of the international covenants to which the U.S. has signed up," Assange said.

U.S. officials insisted Tuesday that American diplomats are not being transformed into intelligence officers or doing anything out of the ordinary, and State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley pointedly responded to Assange's statement.

"This is ridiculous and ill-informed," Crowley said. "The leak of these documents is something we have strongly condemned, but what these documents demonstrate is the tremendous work being done by diplomats around the world, led by Secretary Clinton."

The leaked papers include an purported order from "SECSTATE WASHDC" signed "CLINTON" to American diplomats to engage in intelligence gathering.

In the July 2009 document, Clinton directs her envoys at the United Nations and embassies around the world to collect information ranging from basic biographical data on foreign diplomats to their frequent flyer and credit card numbers and even "biometric information on ranking North Korean diplomats." Typical biometric information can include fingerprints, signatures and iris recognition data.

The State Department said its officers are not spies.

"Diplomats are diplomats. And their job is to interact with people, gather information, gain perspective on events around the world and report those findings in a way that helps inform our policies and form out actions. They are not intelligence assets," spokesman Crowley told reporters Tuesday.

Crowley called the directive a "wish list" from "outside" agencies that did not require diplomats to do anything.

"Nothing in any document that allegedly is in the tranche or WikiLeaks or in possession of WikiLeaks changed the role of any diplomat, anywhere in the world," Crowley said at his daily briefing.

A U.S. official familiar with diplomatic reporting said, "This kind of cable is routine and is not unique to the United Nations. It's a list of priorities that are of interest to the American government," said the official.

A senior administration official said the intelligence community does communicate to the State Department and other agencies what it is interested in finding out about foreign officials.

"The intelligence community managers communicate to us what they are interested in," this official said. "That message did not change or require diplomats to do anything."

When asked whether U.S. diplomats are carrying out those directives, this official said, "It's one thing for someone to say, 'Hey, if you come across this kind of thing, we'd be interested.' It's another thing to say, 'Go out and do it.'"

The official added, "I'm not even sure how many people even saw that message. Diplomats are free to ignore that kind of message, and I'm told virtually all of them do."

A former senior intelligence official who was not directly familiar with the Clinton cables agreed such a request is basically a wish list which most diplomats don't carry out.

When the intelligence community is pursuing information needed by the policymakers, it decides on what has to be collected and how best to do it.

"It's a detailed matrix of what is needed to go forward," said the former official. That could include obtaining phone numbers, providing talking points to diplomats and seeking other information.

In a case like this, an office such as Intelligence and Research at the State Department would put together a message which would be sent under the secretary's name, asking diplomats to pursue certain information "if they have an opportunity to do so, if they get access to a particular foreign official," said the official who quickly added, "diplomats don't usually do it."

The former intelligence official noted that diplomatic reporting is considered the baseline for the intelligence community.

"Diplomatic reporting has an intelligence dimension. The process starts with what the diplomats tell us and we move from there," said the official, "but the down in the weeds, clandestine work is done by intelligence collection officers."

Here's a list of some of the tidbits: (link)
Updated at 9:12 p.m.] After posting thousands of secret government documents, WikiLeaks came under an electronic attack designed to make it unavailable to users, the website said Tuesday.

It was the second attack since the site began publishing the first of what it says are 250,000 secret U.S. diplomatic cables from U.S. embassies around the world, documents that the website said represented the largest-ever disclosure of confidential information. Those documents give the world "an unprecedented insight into the U.S. government's foreign activities," the site said.

WikiLeaks drew widespread condemnation for publishing the confidential cables that, in some instances, detailed with unusual frankness Washington's diplomatic interactions with other countries. Former President George Bush called the leaks "damaging," saying WikiLeaks will hurt U.S. relations with the rest of the world.

So far, the leaks have provided us with a look at tensions between China and North Korea – a topic of discussion these days given concern over clashes between North and South Korea. Apparently, cables reveal China was weary of North Korea behaving like a "spoiled child."

We've also learned a little bit more about China's role in other global affairs - including Iran - and how China has been talking to the United States about containing Iran's nuclear program. But the cables also reveal the role of Chinese enterprises in Iran's strategy to obtain materials for its missile programs and the U.S. State Department's efforts to counter that strategy.

And with widespread concern about nuclear capabilities of Iran and North Korea, it makes sense that WikiLeaks documents show there was a focus on the health of leaders in both countries.

Speaking of North Korea's weaponry, the country apparently had Mongolia pass a message to the United States in 2009 about possible disarmament talks, which North Korea suggested that Mongolia could host.

Weaponry - and nuclear capabilities - naturally are of concern to countries around the world. Which may be why there are stacks of documents discussing the must-have weapons and the countries that want them.

Regarding Iran, one 2009 cable said that the predominantly Shiite Islamic nation was facing increased unrest in a largely Sunni province, Sistan-Balochistan, and that Iranian security forces were losing effective control over parts of the province, citing Iranian contacts.

We've also learned other tidbits from the documents, including that Brazil tried to distance itself from U.S. war on terror. Elsewhere in Latin America, the U.S. Embassy in Honduras unequivocally found that the forced removal of that nation's president last year was a coup that ushered in an illegitimate government, despite Washington's more measured tone in public. And U.S. State Department analysts asked the U.S. Embassy in Argentina for information on the mental state and health of Argentine President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner, according to a December 2009 cable.

Diplomatic cables about Pakistan reveal U.S. anxiety about Pakistan's uranium stockpile, its role in the stuggle against Islamic militants and its economic crisis, according to a New York Times review of the documents.

Some of the cables address how certain countries felt about taking in Guantanamo Bay prisoners that the United States wanted to move. When the United States wanted Kuwait to accept four Kuwaiti prisoners, Kuwait's minister of the interior responded that the country couldn't successfully hold them, and suggested instead that America drop them off in the middle of a battlefield in Afghanistan – where they were picked up - so they would die there, according to one released cable. Another document praised a former Guantanamo detainee, Moazzam Begg of Britain, for "barnstorming throughout Europe pushing governments to accept" Guantanamo detainees for resettlement."

One of the documents says Saudi Arabia expressed concern over the fact that Saudis were temporarily on a U.S. list of nationalities that warranted additional screening at airports after a failed December 25 airplane bombing attempt.

Several cables paint an unflattering and somewhat unexpected portrait of Ahmed Wali Karzai, the half-brother of Afghan President Hamid Karzai. British Prince Andrew was called rude following some blunt words with U.S. officials, and there's also some intel on how some world leaders and other operatives view other royals.

A lot of it is stuff we already suspect:

Russia is an utterly corrupt mafia state, who knew? :roll:

Or stuff which reads like an excerpt from the Daily Sun or something like it:

Less than flattering look at world leaders

Italian leader's partying left him a complete mess

The main issue I think is that there is just so much that it's hard to digest it all at once. :smile:

What is more interesting is that behind the scenes, some of these countries are actually urging the USA on in its tough guy act. That's unexpected.

I'm not sure how much of this is cherry picked by the mainstream media - probably a fair bit, so alternative interpretations welcome.
Last edited by The Minx on Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#2

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Obviously, attempts were made to damage control: Link
Islamabad, Pakistan (CNN) -- U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari have agreed not to let recent WikiLeaks revelations "cast a shadow on the strategic partnership" between their countries, a spokesman for the president said.

The two officials spoke over the telephone about bilateral matters with reference to the recent leaks of U.S. diplomatic cables, the spokesman said. WikiLeaks is a website known for leaking official secrets.

They agreed that the WikiLeaks publications were not only unauthorized, but were also out of context and based on raw information that failed to reflect the correct nature of the purported official correspondence.

The spokesman said the president regards the leaks as a thing of the past and he looks forward to the future and the promise it holds.

U.S. diplomatic cables cited by The New York Times reveal concerns over Pakistan's uranium stockpile, its role in the struggle against Islamic militants and its economic crisis.

CNN cannot independently verify the content of all the cables from the website.

Cables revealed by The Times show that the U.S. ambassador in Islamabad was concerned over a supply of highly enriched uranium at an aging research reactor, allegedly enough to build several "dirty bombs."

The Times cites a cable dated May 27, 2009, in which Ambassador Anne Patterson said the Pakistani government was dragging its feet on an agreement that would allow the United States to remove the material.

She said the Pakistani government was concerned that the "sensational' international and local media coverage of Pakistan's nuclear weapons made it impossible to proceed at this time."

One document cited says Zardari had told U.S. Vice President Joe Biden that the Pakistani military might "take me out."

Other governments are also preoccupied by Pakistan, including Saudi Arabia, according to a CNN survey of the leaked cables.

In a cable sent to Washington in February, Ambassador James Smith writes: "King Abdullah firmly believes that Asif Zardari is the primary obstacle to the government's ability to move unequivocally to end terrorist safe havens there ('when the head is rotten, it affects the whole body')."

A cable from June 2009 said Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told U.S. diplomats that Pakistan was his "private nightmare," suggesting that the world might wake up one morning "with everything changed" after a potential Islamic extremist takeover.

Which has to be made during existing travels abroad. :smile: Link
(CNN) -- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton landed Tuesday in Astana, Kazakhstan, to begin a four-day trip abroad as the publication of classified U.S. State Department cables by the WikiLeaks site makes headlines around the world.

Taking questions at a town hall session titled "Empowering Civil Society for Central Asia's Future," Clinton called the release of the classified cables on the Internet "very irresponsible" and outlined how she plans to address the revelations when speaking with other diplomats during the trip.

"I, of course, have been reaching to governments and leaders around the world over the last week," she said.

"As I said before I left Washington, we consider it regrettable that information that was meant to be confidential has been made public, and I particularly worry about the human rights activists, the religious leaders, the critics of governments who speak to members of our embassy about abuses in their own country, whose name may either be in a reporting cable or who may be identifiable because of the description of the person," Clinton said.

"So I believe that was a very irresponsible act that put at risk the lives of innocent people all over the world."

Clinton arrived Tuesday night at the Eurasian University in Astana and was greeted by two young girls in traditional Kazakh dress who presented her with flowers. She then moved to a small room for a meet-and-greet with female leaders.

At another point during the town hall, Clinton was asked about what lessons she had learned by being involved in student government when in college.

"You have to get along with people, you have to listen to them even if you disagree with them," Clinton said. "You have to try to find compromise. You know, in some circles, even in my own country now, compromise is considered a bad thing. But in fact compromise is often the only way to resolve any issue peacefully."

Clinton's itinerary includes stops in the Kyrgyz Republic, Uzbekistan and Bahrain.

A regional security summit in Astana is a key part of the trip.

Clinton will lead the U.S. delegation at the Summit of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe -- a group that includes 56 countries in Europe, Central Asia and North America.

She will also travel to the Middle East to deliver a speech on the role of the United States in regional security at the Manama Dialogue in Bahrain.

But with leaked communiques from American diplomats rippling around the world, Clinton told reporters Monday that she will make a point to connect with foreign officials on the trip.

"We will be seeing dozens of my counterparts. ... I will continue the conversations that I have started with some in person and over the phone over the last days, and I will seek out others, because I want personally to impress upon them the importance that I place on the kind of open, productive discussions that we have had to date and my intention to continue working closely with them," she said.

The latest confidential disclosures, which WikiLeaks says will eventually reach 250,000 pages, contain mostly State Department cables sent by American diplomats between the end of 1966 and February 2010. The release prompted widespread condemnation from U.S. officials and a range of reaction from other governments.

In Kazakhstan, Clinton is scheduled to meet with President Nursultan Nazarbayev and Foreign Minister Kanat Saudabayev, both of whom are mentioned in a cable purportedly written by U.S. Embassy staff and published by WikiLeaks about the "recreational habits of Kazakhstan's leaders."

"Kazakhstan's political elites appear to enjoy typical hobbies -- such as travel, horseback riding, and skiing. Not surprisingly, however, they are able to indulge in their hobbies on a grand scale, whether flying Elton John to Kazakhstan for a concert or trading domestic property for a palace in the United Arab Emirates," the cable says.

It describes John performing at a birthday party for Nazarbayev's son-in-law and says singer Nelly Furtado performed at a birthday bash for his daughter. It also mentions Saudabayev's skiing vacation in Europe with a Kazakhstani billionaire.

Clinton expressed confidence that U.S. diplomatic efforts around the world will survive the leak of the documents.

"I can tell you, in my conversations, at least one of my counterparts said to me, 'Don't worry about it; you should see what we say about you,'" she said.
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#3

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OK, so many articles are getting to be rather spammy, so I'm now going to just post some links and some comments:

Assange is calling for Clinton to resign: :smile: I doubt that anyone will take it seriously, though. Link

And as noted in the article above, he might target a bank next: Link

OK, so many articles are getting to be rather spammy, so I'm now going to just post some links and some comments regarding the domestic reaction:

Palin being an idjit again: Link. Basically blaming Obama for the Wikileaks "fiasco", as if it were his personal fault, and as if she and McCain would have done any better. :roll:

Huckabee being angry in general: link. Calling for execution for whoever leaked the information.

General bla bla bla from party leaders: Link.

Robert Gibbs downplays the significance and power of Wikileaks and Assange Link.

Amazon cuts Wikileaks from their servers. Link. Not surprising since it is an American company and they don't want to catch any flak for hosting them; Wikileaks just relocate to elsewhere of course. A rather lame tweet was the Wikileaks response: "If Amazon are so uncomfortable with the first amendment, they should get out of the business of selling books" showing that they either don't actually understand the First Amendment or that they're not above propaganda and distortion of the truth. Kind of a sobering thought. :neutral:

An interesting article expressing concerns of the real danger these leaked documents represent: not that the enemies of the USA gain valuable information, but that the leaks be used as a pretext for curtailing the rights of the press. Which I thought was a very real possibility. Link
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#4

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OK, I'll quit posting about this for now until there are responses. I needed to re-edit a lot of the posts, due to the volume of stuff: I wanted it to be legible and yet to contain most of the main items.

Yea, done for real now. :oops:
Last edited by The Minx on Thu Dec 02, 2010 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#5

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The Minx wrote:OK, so many articles are getting to be rather spammy, so I'm now going to just post some links and some comments:

Assange is calling for Clinton to resign: :smile: I doubt that anyone will take it seriously, though. Link
Aww, how cute. He's having a power trip... Isn't that adorable.
And as noted in the article above, he might target a bank next: Link
Hopefully it will have more to say than this sad excuse of a big reveal of America's dirty secrets has been...

OK, so many articles are getting to be rather spammy, so I'm now going to just post some links and some comments regarding the domestic reaction:
Palin being an idjit again: Link. Basically blaming Obama for the Wikileaks "fiasco", as if it were his personal fault, and as if she and McCain would have done any better. :roll:
Did she just...
"Inexplicable: I recently won in court to stop my book "America by Heart" from being leaked, but US Govt can't stop Wikileaks' treasonous act?" Palin said in the tweet.
Her grammar is atrocious and she's a fucking idiot. "I'll simply have the courts stop Assange from making any more leaks". Words do not describe how incredibly stupid and generally wrong that is.
Huckabee being angry in general: link. Calling for execution for whoever leaked the information.
That's right. We ought to crucify him! And crucify his family too! And stick them up on the side of the road as a lesson to others!
Amazon cuts Wikileaks from their servers. Link. Not surprising since it is an American company and they don't want to catch any flak for hosting them; Wikileaks just relocate to elsewhere of course. A rather lame tweet was the Wikileaks response: "If Amazon are so uncomfortable with the first amendment, they should get out of the business of selling books" showing that they either don't actually understand the First Amendment or that they're not above propaganda and distortion of the truth. Kind of a sobering thought. :neutral:
Considering what he did is technically illegal? Hell yeah. Compliance in the revealing of state secrets? I don't want to think about what the government would do to Amazon. And yeah, it sounds like Wikileaks is rather hurt about getting dropped from Amazon and you saw the video of the helicopter attack in Iraq. The first five minutes of that thing were all about propaganda.
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#6

Post by SirNitram »

Overall, I continue to think Assange did was beneficial to democracies, though there's no doubting it's illegal. INterpol is after him, again, on the Rape charges.

Now, normally I scream for blood at rape charges, but the timing of each time it's brought up kinda screams 'not coincidence'.
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#7

Post by The Cleric »

Assange published leaked documents, and in my mind deserves all the protections of a free press. I'm not naive enough to think that the US public needs to know EVERYTHING that our government does; certain things, usually military related, need to be kept private for security. But I imagine the world would be a better place if there were no back room deals or secret meetings, and diplomacy was conducted with full transparency.

As for the rape charges, what he's being charged for is consensual sex without a condom after being asked to use one. There's a specific part of Swedish law that deals with it, and it's a fine with a maximum of about $750 if convicted. He's being charged on two counts; the first was a condom break mid coitus, the second was next-morning sex (different women). In order to be charged with this specific crime, it cannot be rape, as that would be a different and far more severe charge.
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The Cleric wrote:Assange published leaked documents, and in my mind deserves all the protections of a free press.
And he'd probably have them if all he did was publish, but the idiot has repeatedly made public statements indicating that his intent in acquiring the information is to harm the United States, which suddenly catapults him from innocent publisher protected by the First Amendment to someone incredibly likely to be convicted under the Espionage Act if he ever faces a U.S. court.
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#9

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I was not aware of that. That's awfully ignorant of him. The US might not be globally LIKED, but we twist arms with the best of them, and since he's stated his intent to release documents regarding the Russians, I would not be surprised if he disappeared.
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#10

Post by General Havoc »

Rogue 9 wrote: And he'd probably have them if all he did was publish, but the idiot has repeatedly made public statements indicating that his intent in acquiring the information is to harm the United States, which suddenly catapults him from innocent publisher protected by the First Amendment to someone incredibly likely to be convicted under the Espionage Act if he ever faces a U.S. court.
I've never heard any such assertions of his, and I've followed Wikileaks pretty closely since I first heard about it. Where did he make these insane declarations?
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#11

Post by Stofsk »

Does it even matter if he said that? If so, why?
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#12

Post by General Havoc »

It would speak to intent and thus influence precisely what he would be charged with, perhaps drastically.
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Post by Stofsk »

Eh, I have a hard time accepting any crime has been committed. If anything, wikileaks has revealed how spineless mainstream media is in the US, and several uncomfortable truths about the activities of the American government. And when you have guys on the right calling for his head (in some cases, literally) I'm left wondering if they want to get him not because of any legitimate breaking of the law but out of spite.
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Post by rhoenix »

That's more or less my impression as well. Wikileaks is essentially pointing out that the emperor is naked, making many people here red-faced and bleating.

I may not think very highly of Assange's personality, given what I've seen from him so far, but there is no denying that he and the organization to which he belongs have exposed in detail many things about the US's wars and efforts in the fashion of some of the reporters that we profess to view so highly - ones that dared to point out uncomfortable details about what our government was doing.

Personally, it doesn't matter to me at all what Assange said his personal intentions are. The fact that these leaks have been verified and sorted as the professional press should makes that irrelevant to me, thereby exposing our own media as entirely lackluster about its job or reporting the truth, however inconvenient or uncomfortable those truths might be. After all, the bloody drag marks in Abu Ghraib didn't come from waterboarding.

I mean, if it takes an organization outside the US to expose and catalog uncomfortable truths about what our government is doing because our own press is unwilling or unable to do the same, then that tells me we have an abject failure of our own press, not that Wikileaks has inherently done anything wrong.
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Post by Stofsk »

Remember, a lot of other countries have been embarrassed by the release of those diplomatic cables, including Australia, where it has been revealed how much our former Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, didn't like China. This is in contrary to claims he was some kind of Sinophile Mister Mandarin during his term as PM.

So wikileaks isn't gunning for America solely at all, and I hear they're going to release more info on other countries soon.
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Post by rhoenix »

Stofsk wrote:Remember, a lot of other countries have been embarrassed by the release of those diplomatic cables, including Australia, where it has been revealed how much our former Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, didn't like China. This is in contrary to claims he was some kind of Sinophile Mister Mandarin during his term as PM.

So wikileaks isn't gunning for America solely at all, and I hear they're going to release more info on other countries soon.
Exactly. People attempting to frame the debate as if Wikileaks were simply an America-hating newspaper made by some angry dude in his basement is something I think is hilarious.
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#17

Post by Charon »

Stofsk wrote:Does it even matter if he said that? If so, why?
For me, it matters because it would make it evident that his agenda is more important to him than the truth. Because people who are agenda based, either consciously or subconsciously will look at a piece of information and see what they want to see, which isn't always what is necessarily there. They may decide "Oh, well this article isn't so important to my argument." when really that article proves that their argument is wrong.

This is why scientist's findings on their pet theory aren't taken seriously until there is peer review. Because people are inherently biased. For now I've given Assange the benefit of the doubt that what he gets is what we see. But quite frankly the first video I saw from Wikileaks was the incredibly biased "Collateral Murder" video. If he shows repeatedly that he has some sort of bias towards the information he gives out I'm gonna have to start treating his leaks like I do any government official report. Which is to say with a big grain of salt.
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