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#1 Pope speech compares atheist 'extremism' with Nazism
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 10:46 am
by General Havoc
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515
The Pope has compared "atheist extremism" to the Nazi tyranny of WWII in a speech given in Edinburgh as he begins a four-day visit to the UK.
The pontiff praised Britain's fight against the Nazis - who "wished to eradicate God" - before relating it to modern day "atheist extremism".
Afterwards his spokesman Federico Lombardi said: "I think the Pope knows rather well what the Nazi ideology is".
Humanists have said the comments were a "terrible libel" against non-believers.
Blogger Ian Dunt, writing for Politics.co.uk, said the speech was "highly political" and might be seen as a warning about the direction of British society.
A senior Papal aide had earlier made remarks about England's "secularised" society, comparing it with a Third World country.
Cardinal Walter Kasper - who has been urged to apologise - later pulled out of the UK trip, with the Vatican citing illness.
In an interview with a German magazine he said: "England today is a secularised, pluralistic country. When you land at Heathrow Airport, you sometimes think you'd landed in a Third World country."
He went on to say "aggressive neo-atheism" was widespread in England.
'Sobering lessons'
In his speech made on Thursday after he was welcomed by the Queen at Holyroodhouse in Edinburgh, Pope Benedict XVI urged the UK to resist "more aggressive forms of secularism" .
He said: "We can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews.
"I also recall the regime's attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives.
"As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the 20th century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society," he added.
The pontiff went on to praise Britain's post-war role in bringing peace to Europe, its efforts towards peace in Northern Ireland and its overall role on the international stage.
He said Britain was striving to be a "modern and multicultural society" but called on it to resist turning away from religion.
"May it always maintain its respect for those traditional values and cultural expressions that more aggressive forms of secularism no longer value or even tolerate," he said.
A statement from the British Humanist Association said the Pope's remarks were "surreal".
"The notion that it was the atheism of Nazis that led to their extremist and hateful views or that it somehow fuels intolerance in Britain today is a terrible libel against those who do not believe in God.
"The notion that it is non-religious people in the UK today who want to force their views on others, coming from a man whose organisation exerts itself internationally to impose its narrow and exclusive form of morality and undermine the human rights of women, children, gay people and many others, is surreal."
The German-born Pope has previously spoken of his time growing up under the "monster" of Nazism.
He joined Hitler Youth at 14, as was required of young Germans at the time.
Late on in WWII he was drafted into an anti-aircraft unit in Munich.
He deserted the German army towards the end of the war and was briefly held as a prisoner-of-war by the Allies in 1945.
The Pope's conservative, traditionalist views were intensified when teaching at the University of Bonn in the 1960s he was said to be appalled at the prevalence of Marxism among his students.
In his view, religion was being subordinated to a political ideology that he considered "tyrannical, brutal and cruel".
He would later be a leading campaigner against liberation theology, the movement to involve the Church in social activism, which for him was too close to Marxism.
*Sigh*
#2
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 11:36 am
by frigidmagi
Did the Pope just Godwin?
Smooth.
#3
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:19 pm
by Norseman
Vatican may not have the anti-Christ but they sure have the anti-PR Manager.
#4
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:34 pm
by frigidmagi
Look I don't care for militant atheist either, but frankly we all need to learn to get along. At least until someone invents a FTL and we can all zoom away to our own private planets (while we're on wish lists I want a couple English models, a Telsa roadster, a pack of loyal raptor dinos and my own all expenses paid tank with bars of gold stacked up inside).
Not to mention the asshole who covered for a bunch of child molesters should really keep his fucking trap shut about other people. I believe a
certain individualthat
some of us consider important made a statement about not throwing rocks if you've sinned or judging unless you wanted to be judged. It would be nice if a certain old German with a nice hat were to remember that.
There are times I think the Catholic Church should call for a do over on the Papal election.
#5
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:09 pm
by General Havoc
Bad as "militant atheists" are, they have never Engaged in massive campaigns of racial extermination against ethnic minorities for the sake of doing evil.
This shit is why we invented secularism.
#6
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:11 am
by The Minx
The pontiff praised Britain's fight against the Nazis - who "wished to eradicate God" - before relating it to modern day "atheist extremism".
What was that the SS had written on their belt buckles again?
#7
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:18 am
by rhoenix
The Pope visited Hitler in Germany with widely publicized visits on Hitler's birthday after he came to power in Germany, and the SS had the inscriptions on their belt buckles because they were all filthy atheists. It makes perfect sense.
#8
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 9:07 am
by Stofsk
whoa whoa whoa
corrupt centuries old institution has selective memory of its past transgressions and likes to whitewash its own history
slow down guys my head is spinning
#9
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:53 am
by The Minx
BTW: I have always found it interesting to see how low the bar for being a "militant atheist" is. To be a militant Muslim or a militant Christian you actually have to go out and bomb something. All you have to do to be a "militant atheist" is to be openly against religion as opposed to merely not being religious. It's not as though the religious leaders don't constantly rail against secularism, why are they not considered "militant" simply because of this?
It's just a way to delegitimize the atheist position. The Red Brigades were "militant" (and they were militant about communism, not atheism per se), Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are not "militant".
#10
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 11:13 am
by Cynical Cat
The Minx wrote:
It's just a way to delegitimize the atheist position. The Red Brigades were "militant" (and they were militant about communism, not atheism per se), Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens are not "militant".
Shh! Next you'll mention that going door to door and proselytizing to people at their houses isn't enough to get you considered a militant if you're religious, but not even the so-called militant atheists do that shit.
#11
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:22 pm
by General Havoc
I think Richard Dawkins is an idiot, but it does say a great deal for Atheists that he more or less represents the extreme wing of Atheism.
#12
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:30 pm
by Charon
That being said, being compared favorably to a Pope that declares athiests are nazis and people who blow other people up for thinking different things from them is not exactly sterling praise.
#13
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:41 pm
by The Minx
What reasonable person can't be compared favorably to the Pope and to people who blow other people up for thinking different things from them?
And why should you not be able to express the opinion that a particular mode of thought is irrational without that comparison having to be made?
If simply making public claims that religion is irrational makes one an idiot, why does that not apply to public criticism of any number of other things?
#14
Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:50 pm
by Charon
The Minx wrote:What reasonable person can't be compared favorably to the Pope and to people who blow other people up for thinking different things from them?
My point is that you don't even need to be reasonable in order to be compared favorably to them. I was stating that before we heap too much praise on an openly antagonistic man like Dawkins, we remember that his competition are psychopaths and thus it's not hard to look like an angel when compared to them.
And why should you not be able to express the opinion that a particular mode of thought is irrational without that comparison having to be made?
The comparison of Athiests to Nazis? Because Nazis are still the buzzword of the age. Call your enemy a Nazi and it gets you a couple extra points on the talking points and it's always certain to generate buzz. The Catholic Church is suffering big time and they are being reactionary. I'd say expect the next pope to be just as bad or worse.
As for the comparison of Dawkins and Extremist believers, I dunno. You brought it up first.
If simply making public claims that religion is irrational makes one an idiot, why does that not apply to public criticism of any number of other things?
Way to completely miss the point. Dawkins isn't an idiot because he calls religion irrational. Dawkins is an idiot because he is unnecessarily antagonistic towards religion. Here's a hint, you're not making any friends among the more moderate and even liberal believers when you call their belief a "mental disease" I believe he once referred to it as.
#15
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:42 am
by Norseman
The Minx wrote:The pontiff praised Britain's fight against the Nazis - who "wished to eradicate God" - before relating it to modern day "atheist extremism".
What was that the SS had written on their belt buckles again?
"Meine ehre heisst treue", or "My honour is called loyalty."
#16
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:11 am
by The Minx
Charon wrote:My point is that you don't even need to be reasonable in order to be compared favorably to them.
OK, sorry.
Charon wrote:The comparison of Athiests to Nazis? Because Nazis are still the buzzword of the age. Call your enemy a Nazi and it gets you a couple extra points on the talking points and it's always certain to generate buzz. The Catholic Church is suffering big time and they are being reactionary. I'd say expect the next pope to be just as bad or worse.
Yea, I know (I meant the other comparison). The Catholic Church really needs to become more moderate if it wants to survive. I suspect they're just afraid that the church will split if they reform themselves, since the radicals might be more likely to do so (they already did so once). They probably reckon that the moderates will keep tagging along, while the liberals will just leave for greener pastures. Apparently they're more concerned with the unity of the church than its popularity.
Charon wrote:As for the comparison of Dawkins and Extremist believers, I dunno. You brought it up first.
I brought it up because the of how common the double standard with regards to the "militant" classification is. It's an obvious reaction to make when radical people throw the "militant" label around and the mainstream goes along with it.
Charon wrote:Way to completely miss the point. Dawkins isn't an idiot because he calls religion irrational. Dawkins is an idiot because he is unnecessarily antagonistic towards religion. Here's a hint, you're not making any friends among the more moderate and even liberal believers when you call their belief a "mental disease" I believe he once referred to it as.
That does not make him an idiot. If he not only rejects the mode of thought of faith itself but actually considers it dangerous, then it makes little sense for him to try and make friends among the faithful.
BTW: I don't agree with his approach of lumping all religion together, not only is it wrong, it's way too polarizing. I hadn't actually heard the "mental disease" quip before, though.
#17
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:17 am
by The Minx
Norseman wrote:The Minx wrote:The pontiff praised Britain's fight against the Nazis - who "wished to eradicate God" - before relating it to modern day "atheist extremism".
What was that the SS had written on their belt buckles again?
"Meine ehre heisst treue", or "My honour is called loyalty."
Nope, it was "Gott Mit Uns". "Meine ehre heisst treue" was their motto, though.
To be fair, the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" was associated with the German military since the German Empire, but its use by the SS shows that the Nazis were not atheists.
#18
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:56 pm
by Norseman
The Minx wrote:Norseman wrote:"Meine ehre heisst treue", or "My honour is called loyalty."
Nope, it was "Gott Mit Uns". "Meine ehre heisst treue" was their motto, though.
To be fair, the phrase "Gott Mit Uns" was associated with the German military since the German Empire, but its use by the SS shows that the Nazis were not atheists.
I am sorry but you are dead wrong,
SS belt buckles used
Meine Ehre Heisst Traue. The Heer on the other hand still used Gott Mitt Uns, but the Heer is not the SS.
#19
Posted: Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:02 pm
by The Minx
Conceded. I had actually looked up pictures of the belt buckles before making that last post just to be on the safe side, but managed not to check on whether it was indeed the SS or the Heer who used them. Go sloppy research. >.<
But regardless, there are other examples of Nazi iconography and slogans which bear the point out.
I can only wonder why the pope didn't mention the Marxists instead, since they were philosophically atheists.
Perhaps to distance the RCC from the Nazis or something like that.