LibriumArcana.Games

Am I the only one who thinks Master of Orion demands a remake?

After the shit-tastic MOO3, this once-glorious TBS franchise was driven to the craphole all bad games get flushed. And why? Well... because it was shit, to be honest.

But does that mean we can't have another MOO game? Atari owns the licence, so I guess you could do a Supreme Commander and make a sequel that is all-but-in-name a MOO game.

If something like this were to occur, what would you consider fundamental to MOO's gameplay that you would include it into the game? Do you want to see another MOO game?

I'd love a new MoO. I think the second installment had it nearly perfect, to be honest. With that in mind:

• Update the GUI to modern standards, resolution, etc.
• More powerful race, ship, and planetary customization. Custom, multiplayer-transferable graphics, more dynamic options, etc.
• Tactical combat. Hmm. I'm not sure. I think it'd be best to not fix what isn't broken in this case.
• Diplomacy and AI. URGH. This is one of my biggest beefs with strategy games. And AI is always a stupid little bitch, no matter how many promises of "super-improved diplomacy!" I see. Got a massive nuclear arsenal? Don't worry, that won't stop the computer factions from encroaching on your turf!
  
  So far, the best AI/Diplomacy I've seen is Rome: Total War. Far from perfect, but at least it isn't completely retarded.

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:

• Tactical combat. Hmm. I'm not sure. I think it'd be best to not fix what isn't broken in this case.

I disagree. I think Tactical combat needs to be in real-time. The greater strategy and operational functions in the game can be left to turn-based, but when it zooms into a battle there should be some kind of urgency to it that real-time gives.

And let's face it: turn-based gives you the chance to build an empire, but real-time battles give you a chance to crush an enemy's fleet and plunder his worlds.

The main problem with the turn-based combat in MoO2 was the fact that you couldn't stack ships of the same type a la MoO. That led to end-game grindfests where you just let the battle autoresolve rather than sit through an hour of the AI moving every damned ship that the enemy Empire accumulated since the start of the game.

I don't mind turn-based combat for MoO style games simply because the focus of the game is on the management, diplomacy, and proper fleet placement over individual tactics in the battles.

Now, as for TBS games... GALACTIC CIVILIZATIONS is still out there, folks, and while it's not MoO II, it still is a damned fine game that included elements such as the morality of empires. Furthermore, the diplomacy engine, while still rusy, is light-years better than MoO II's style of having your longtime allies suddenly break your alliance for no good reason, then declare war on you a few turns later.

I'd love a MoO remake, though, based on all the source material that went into MoO III, because they did compile one hell of a cool backstory for the game.

Petrosjko wrote:The main problem with the turn-based combat in MoO2 was the fact that you couldn't stack ships of the same type a la MoO. That led to end-game grindfests where you just let the battle autoresolve rather than sit through an hour of the AI moving every damned ship that the enemy Empire accumulated since the start of the game.

Moo3 attempted to correct this deficiency by introducing the idea of picket ships, escort and your core units. Of course, MOO3 implemented the most arse-backwards GUI that frankly, even if the concept was an improvement it didn't matter a damn because you couldn't fucking do it easily, or quickly.

I don't mind turn-based combat for MoO style games simply because the focus of the game is on the management, diplomacy, and proper fleet placement over individual tactics in the battles.

That's the thing though, turn-base is where you do all the strategic and operational decisions where your actions affect your empire globally (or in this case, galactically), while real-time is for the tactical battles.

Now you can place your ships here and there, but then sometimes fortunes change unexpectedly - just like in real life. I like the idea that you can in a detached way put all your ships in certain sectors, but when a fight happens you're zoomed down to it and it's all decided on what decisions you made prior to the battle commencing as well as what tactics you employ to win the battle. It's like playing chess if you could go down to the POV of a pawn or knight, then zoom up to look at the battlescape as a whole.

I'd love a MoO remake, though, based on all the source material that went into MoO III, because they did compile one hell of a cool backstory for the game.

The backstory is ok, I wouldn't call it that good though. I thought it was just change for change's sake. For instance, the Bulrathi, Catpeople, Birdpeople, Shapeshifters, and god knows who else were wiped out just so the new races could be introduced. The problem though is that the new races were fucking shit.

Also, goddamn it the authors decided to put 'intelligent design' into the thing by having Humans engineered by aliens. Argh!

Stofsk wrote:The backstory is ok, I wouldn't call it that good though. I thought it was just change for change's sake. For instance, the Bulrathi, Catpeople, Birdpeople, Shapeshifters, and god knows who else were wiped out just so the new races could be introduced. The problem though is that the new races were fucking shit.

Also, goddamn it the authors decided to put 'intelligent design' into the thing by having Humans engineered by aliens. Argh!

Actually, the Bulrathi, Darloks, Mrrshan and so on were eliminated because they were science fiction cliches, not to make room for the new races. The Psilons nearly got it for the same reason, and were only saved due to outcry from the fanbase, albeit they were supposed to come back in a much harder-edged form. Of course, it wasn't reflected in gameplay, because the gameplay sucked.

I actually liked the concept of the human race being designed as a predator species designed to hunt that other race's scout species, whatever they were called. Sure, it was scientifically shit, but it made for an interesting element given the usual human assumption that we're the descendants of the Orions or the true inheritors of their Legacy.

Petrosjko wrote:Actually, the Bulrathi, Darloks, Mrrshan and so on were eliminated because they were science fiction cliches, not to make room for the new races. The Psilons nearly got it for the same reason, and were only saved due to outcry from the fanbase, albeit they were supposed to come back in a much harder-edged form.

They may have been scifi cliche's, but honestly who cares? In any case, they were some of my favourite races. The Darloks were cool, and the best spies in the galaxy because they could shapeshift - and not surprisingly, they were hated by everyone. It has it's own consistency to it.

What about the Meklars? Standard flesh-hating robot people, you telling me that's not a cliche? Ditto to the Silicoids; standard rockpeople who don't get along with anyone, because they have no charisma. It's true I guess, rocks can't smile and shake your hand.

Of course, it wasn't reflected in gameplay, because the gameplay sucked.

Oh the gameplay was balls.

TRADE INCREASED: "This trade pact between us have given us riches!" cries the alien amabassador, shaking his fists beligerently.

SILICOIDS ACCEPT PEACE TREATY: "Finally, we may know peace in our time." says the alien ambassador sadly.

What the fuck.

I actually liked the concept of the human race being designed as a predator species designed to hunt that other race's scout species, whatever they were called. Sure, it was scientifically shit, but it made for an interesting element given the usual human assumption that we're the descendants of the Orions or the true inheritors of their Legacy.

Instead of modifying the evolution, it would have been cooler if it had been revealed that humans were under observation by Uber-aliens who decided to migrate some of them to another part of the galaxy called the Orion Sector, for their own purposes. It doesn't contradict biology and still maintains the 'alien interference in humanity' motif.

Stofsk wrote:They may have been scifi cliche's, but honestly who cares? In any case, they were some of my favourite races. The Darloks were cool, and the best spies in the galaxy because they could shapeshift - and not surprisingly, they were hated by everyone. It has it's own consistency to it.

The Darloks were my favorite too, though they were grossly overpowered in MoO if employed properly.

What about the Meklars? Standard flesh-hating robot people, you telling me that's not a cliche? Ditto to the Silicoids; standard rockpeople who don't get along with anyone, because they have no charisma. It's true I guess, rocks can't smile and shake your hand.

Most stuff I've seen on silicon lifeforms emphasizes their alienness, though in play it comes across as simple belligerance. I loved the 'To War' animation from MoO.

Oh the gameplay was balls.

TRADE INCREASED: "This trade pact between us have given us riches!" cries the alien amabassador, shaking his fists beligerently.

SILICOIDS ACCEPT PEACE TREATY: "Finally, we may know peace in our time." says the alien ambassador sadly.

What the fuck.

I don't know whether to laugh or to revile you for bringing back bad memories.

Instead of modifying the evolution, it would have been cooler if it had been revealed that humans were under observation by Uber-aliens who decided to migrate some of them to another part of the galaxy called the Orion Sector, for their own purposes. It doesn't contradict biology and still maintains the 'alien interference in humanity' motif.

Meh, matter of taste.

What I liked most about the backstory was that it gave the potential to move beyond the parameters of the original game. A sequel could detach itself of such elements as the obsession over conquering Orion, for example.

Petrosjko wrote:Most stuff I've seen on silicon lifeforms emphasizes their alienness, though in play it comes across as simple belligerance. I loved the 'To War' animation from MoO.

I loved it when you get those first contact messages from the original. They had three general kinds:

"Greetings human! We come in peace and hope to be fast friends."

"We bear greetings from our master Skylord, Emperor of Known Space! He hopes the humans will prosper well under our just rule."

"Pray to your gods to motivate you, human, we have come to rid the universe of the human menace!"

Moo had personality.

I'll keep Moo3 thank you very much.

*hugs boatload of mods*

We don't need a remake, we need an official patch.

Ace Pace wrote:I'll keep Moo3 thank you very much.

*hugs boatload of mods*

We don't need a remake, we need an official patch.

Screw mods. MoO3 as released as a piece of crap.

AS RELEASED.

Patched it was average, modded its good.

A game shouldn't have to rely on mods to be good. That's not what we pay for.

Petrosjko wrote:A game shouldn't have to rely on mods to be good. That's not what we pay for.

Not to mention MOO3 is overly complex: the amount of micromanagement really drives me crazy. The charm of the original MOO (as well as Master of Magic) is its simplicity. MOO2 is still tolerable but MOO3??? Come on, even real galactic despot doesn't do that much micromanaging!

The worse bit? It was extreme. You either had too much micromanagement, where the simple task of creating a fleet is tedious or overdrawn, or you had too much 'macromanagement' - which often felt like you had the empire on autopilot and you just kept on click the turn button. Eventually you lost the game because the New Orions voted themselves in as Supreme Galactic Overlords of the Universe... when you weren't even a member of the Senate.

MOO3 was abominable. And no, we don't pay to have a mod make a game playable. Mods are there for variety, not substitution.

Well, I can think of a certain Spannish King who launched an Armada who did more micromanaging. . . .

But yes, this glorious franchise needs a relaunch.

Yeah, I can't believe they took out the 'refuse to accept the decision of the Senate' option. That was one of many 'What the fuck were they thinking?' problems.

They had plenty of time to develop this game- it went over a year past its schedule. That they took so long to turn out a game that essentially consisted of a series of linked spreadsheets that, as Stofsk said, essentially macromanaged itself with notable and annoying exceptions in such areas as fleet management.

I felt that MoO II had the perfect blend of micro- and macromanagement. When you set up a colony, you queued up the initial batch of developments you wanted, usually the production ones, and then let the autobuild take it from there. If you needed more specific control, you could easily jump in and take it.

Cynical Cat wrote:Well, I can think of a certain Spannish King who launched an Armada who did more micromanaging. . . .

But I guess he did it at whim instead of being obliged to to so, right? :P