Order of the Stick Comment thread 611 and counting.

[Hadrianvs]

Bitch is crazy.

At least she knows how to be grateful to those who help her.

That shadow dude scares me...

He's threatening to become extremely dangerous, since we already know he's supremely powerful and now he is showing an incredibly high level of insight and intelligence. I mean, he just figured out a ritual that stumped Xykon just by glancing at it. Either his exposure to Ochul gave him a an increase to his INT and WIS stats, or he always had that potential and Ochul gave him the motivation to use it.

[Cynical Cat]

I applaud the Dark One's aversion to cryptic prophecy.

[frigidmagi]

Wanted to post the whole thing at once.

701

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704

The official founding of Gobbotopia. Gonna suck when the Pallies kick them right back out. Azure city is gonna take decades to rebuild either way. I'm mildly sympathetic, and would be more so if they weren't a bunch of brutal slaving conquerors who whipped old men for sheer shits and giggles.

You know this last comic removes any doubt to the Dark One's stand on these matters. He's okay with gambling with the entire world. In a sense I understand why, the other races and gods have done nothing but crap on him and his, why should he give a damn?

[The Minx]

It's too bad that they're slavers, if they weren't they would be much harder to characterize as the bad guys. ;)

Perhaps they just figure the humans owe them several centuries worth of labor or something, not that this is any excuse of course.


On another note, "prime minister Jirix" does sound better than "Prime minister Hobgoblin Cleric #2".

[The Minx]

Time to update the thread again:

705

706

707


Pretty rough things that happen in wartime, especially with racial hatereds running so deep.


I made the mistake of checking out the forum again, just out of curiosity. Yup, sure enough, there are people justifying this sort of behavior. And there are comments like this one:

Unfortunately, RL morality is also BS.

Had a moral course in Uni. And this is what we were thought:

Kant: If it's done for Duty, it's morally right. Even if the duty is genocide. You like donating? Nope, not moral, since it's not your duty.
Egoism: Whee! Do what's best for yourself. Including murder etc.
Utilitarianism: Best for majority. Genociding minorities are fine, so long it makes the majority happy.

And there's the view that premarital sex is morally wrong etc.

Sorry, but I say screw morality. We can never agree on the same fixed system.

<sigh>

[SirNitram]

....I'm actually OFFENDED by that ridiculous claim on what 'utilitarianism' is. It's incredibly wrong, and I'm.. Actually offended.

That takes ALOT these days.(If no one's noticed, my pills have mellowed me greatly.)

[The Minx]

Keep in mind that we're talking about the forum where statements that amount to de-facto pedophile apologism are apparently acceptable, but calling people on their crap is frowned upon. Because they apparently want a "friendly" forum. Which is "safe for kids" or something like that.

[frigidmagi]

Kant: If it's done for Duty, it's morally right. Even if the duty is genocide. You like donating? Nope, not moral, since it's not your duty.

Wrong! Kant said we had to treat other creatures as ends in and of themselves not as means. Translated that means it's wrong to abuse or use people just for your own advantage. Kant was speaking of Duty to Moral Law, which is higher and overrules any mortal law. Such Law is driven by the Categorial Imperative. That is a principal that is good and valid in and of themselves and must always be obeyed no matter what mortal law they stand in opposition to.

Egoism: Whee! Do what's best for yourself. Including murder etc.

Never heard of Egoism. But I doubt he got it right.

Utilitarianism: Best for majority. Genociding minorities are fine, so long it makes the majority happy.

Hmmm... Noooo... Utilitarians try to do the max good for the max people while doing the min harm to the min people. I would argue that genocide is never the min harm. Hell, I spend more time then most people arguing against Utilitarian viewpoints and I find this outright character assassination.

Bluntly speaking he may be right about Egoism but given his utter failure at the other 2 I frankly doubt it.

Here's a question: What should they have done to the goblin? Keep in mind he may be a double agent and if he is by leaving him behind he can give Redcloak valuable information.

[The Minx]

Here's a question: What should they have done to the goblin? Keep in mind he may be a double agent and if he is by leaving him behind he can give Redcloak valuable information.

Take him along to prevent information being given to Redcloak.

Also, Zone of Truth is a measly 2nd level spell. Verify whether he's telling the truth before doing anything else.

[frigidmagi]

Okay, good plan... but...

Do we have a 2nd level cleric handy or are you gonna run and grab the Pally? You know, the one who is in charge of organizing everything. Keep in mind you have 5 minutes to get everyone out. I ask because every Azerutie I see in the raid either doesn't seem to have class levels or has them in fighter or rogue. We could have the elves do it... But I'm willing to bet my hypothetical character levels that they won't do it.

Leaving him behind means he can tell Redcloak about the elves and bluntly... He will whether he wants to or not. Let us keep in mind Redcloak doesn't know about the elves yet. It's a secret. When you're in as bad a way as the resistance is, you need to keep such secrets as the existence of magically powerful allies.

Killing him and leaving the body runs the same risk. (Redcloak is a what? That crazy bitch, Tsukiko specializes in what?).

If you take him with you, there are two risk. One he is a plant with a magical or nonmagical means of contacting Redcloak. Two he is honest but has a tracker planted on him or worse some sort of watcher.

These risks are the same if you kill him and take the body.

So I think I've demonstrated several things here.

A: The depth of the problem.
B: How the elves action does not solve said problem.
C: The lack of ready resources that could solve said problem (Magic).

That said I think this is clearly an evil act here. Throwing a helpless sapient to his death like that is an exercise in cruelty and one of many things that both Kant and I agree on is a moral duty to Not Be Cruel.

Also I want to state that I wasn't being sarcastic with the good plan up top. That is a good plan and it would work if the Elves were willing to treat the hob there as a person or if the Azeruties had a cleric handy. Minx gets 5 pts.

Now what about the rest of you? (Yes, Nitram, CT and Rogue I'm looking right at you).

[Hotfoot]

First off, I wouldn't trust a hobgoblin in a jail during a jailbreak under the circumstances. Even if he is not a plant, there is just simply too much at stake. Personally I would have knocked him out, left him in the jail, or something like that. The problem is that if the presence of the elves needs to be kept a secret, then there's only one real solution, and that's killing him and getting rid of the body somewhere away from the resistance.

[Cynical Cat]

There are two workable solutions.

1) See Hotfoot.

2) Take him with you and then can opener his mind to find useful intel and the truth. Proceed from this point based on what you find out.

[General Havoc]

Frankly, you have only two choices as I see it. Either you kill him, or you knock him out (by whatever means) and take him with you. The latter carries more risk than the former, but the question of whether the risk is worth it (both practically and morally) is an open question. Frankly speaking, there's a war on, and sometimes you have to do bad things in war, given that the result of taking him with you and him being a plant or tracker is utter disaster for your people.

That being said, what the elf did was not moral even by those standards, for it's clear from the comic that the elf didn't kill him out of necessity but cruelty. Setting him up like that and shoving him off a building speaks to hatred, not to the necessities of war.

[The Minx]

The resistance shown that at least one of the elves is high level enough to cast Teleport, so unless the Divine casters among them are all much lower level than the Arcane ones, they'll have at least some Divines capable of level 2. Also, any Divine capable of 2nd level will automatically have access to Zone of Truth.

When we saw Haley way back when she was leading the under-equipped 1/3 of the resistance, the clerics in attendance showed that the highest level spells they had were 2nd level, it is not likely that their resources have gone down since then (in fact they have kept going way up.

In other words, it's pretty much a given they have access to Zone of Truth. Maybe not in that particular band, but they'll have it. So, knock the hobgoblin out or tie him up and blindfold him as you lead him out of there, he might have valuable intel, and that's more important than one more dead enemy among 20000+.

[The Minx]

New comic: 708.

We see how Redcloak's influence is waning among Team Evil.

[frigidmagi]

The resistance shown that at least one of the elves is high level enough to cast Teleport, so unless the Divine casters among them are all much lower level than the Arcane ones, they'll have at least some Divines capable of level 2. Also, any Divine capable of 2nd level will automatically have access to Zone of Truth.

I already granted you that but pointed out it is very unlikely that the elves will use it. Keep in mind the resistance is in no terms to dictate to the elves. If the elves say no we're not wasting this spell on a Hob, as they are likely to do (by the way have we seen any divine casters with the elf groups yet?) then what?

When we saw Haley way back when she was leading the under-equipped 1/3 of the resistance, the clerics in attendance showed that the highest level spells they had were 2nd level, it is not likely that their resources have gone down since then (in fact they have kept going way up.

In other words, it's pretty much a given they have access to Zone of Truth. Maybe not in that particular band, but they'll have it. So, knock the hobgoblin out or tie him up and blindfold him as you lead him out of there, he might have valuable intel, and that's more important than one more dead enemy among 20000+.

If you knock him out and take him, you run the risk of the possible magical tracker. Morally speaking your option is best but frankly it also risks the entire resistance and the alliance with the elves. So it may not be entirely practical.

[frigidmagi]

708

Annnddddd secret's out. I would say the Elves blew the clean up big time. Also we see previously mentioned crazy bitch making more undead. I think she's making wrights, how much of their former lives do those remember? Does anyone know?

[The Minx]

I already granted you that but pointed out it is very unlikely that the elves will use it. Keep in mind the resistance is in no terms to dictate to the elves. If the elves say no we're not wasting this spell on a Hob, as they are likely to do (by the way have we seen any divine casters with the elf groups yet?) then what?

Well, the critique was directed at the elves, not at the resistance for not having stood up to them.

Also, I don't think that the alliance would be threatened if the resistance tried just a little bit, especially if using the "get intel" angle.

If you knock him out and take him, you run the risk of the possible magical tracker. Morally speaking your option is best but frankly it also risks the entire resistance and the alliance with the elves. So it may not be entirely practical.

This is true, then if all else fails, go for the non-evil kill (as General Havoc says, don't set him up out of cruelty).

However, it would take the goblins a while to discover that someone has been taken prisoner, and who it is. The alliance would take him to a rally point where the spell could be cast. If he's legit, then let him join, but don't keep him in a critical location; if not proceed as above.

Annnddddd secret's out. I would say the Elves blew the clean up big time. Also we see previously mentioned crazy bitch making more undead. I think she's making wrights, how much of their former lives do those remember? Does anyone know?

Those are "wights". Wrights are guys who build aircraft.

The SRD says that they don't possess any of the abilities they had in life, though it doesn't go into their memories.

[frigidmagi]

Well, the critique was directed at the elves, not at the resistance for not having stood up to them. Smile

Fair enough. I do agree the elves deserve to be criticized for this.

Also, I don't think that the alliance would be threatened if the resistance tried just a little bit, especially if using the "get intel" angle.

Asking wouldn't be a problem no, at least I don't think so... I can't make any predictions because when it comes to elves we have a sample size of one, that being V. But again, when they say no, the resistance doesn't have much weight to push with.

However, it would take the goblins a while to discover that someone has been taken prisoner, and who it is.

This assumes the prisoner doesn't have something on him to alert them in the first place. An invisible spirit for example (*cough*likeRoywas*cough*).

The SRD says that they don't possess any of the abilities they had in life, though it doesn't go into their memories.

Well if they don't possess any abilities then I would take that as they don't possess any of the memories. Unless anyone can offer counter evidence?

[Cynical Cat]

If you knock him out and take him, you run the risk of the possible magical tracker. Morally speaking your option is best but frankly it also risks the entire resistance and the alliance with the elves. So it may not be entirely practical.

Detect Magic for any in place and if they don't have a scry blocker they are totally boned anyway.

[frigidmagi]

Ochul is sleeping

Huh turns out you can't scry in the cloister zone, so they don't need a scry blocker.

[Hotfoot]

Which makes sense, but after Xykon leaves, no one will be refreshing the Cloister spell, which means it's open season once more.

Luckily for our guerrillas, that's not for several months more.

[frigidmagi]

I wonder if the Gobs have anyone who can scry? Either way I wouldn't bet on them being able to hold the city for long once all the high level characters are gone.

[General Havoc]

There's still several tens of thousands of the goblins, and we know they have casters of some sort. Basic scrying abilities aren't terribly hard to come by. I'd assume they'll be capable of doing so.

[The Minx]

I think you can actually scry in the cloister zone, but you can't scry on anyone who was in the zone when the spell was cast. Link.

So as far as I understand it, Cloister has the following effects:

• Prevents teleportation or similar spells from working from the outside to the inside, but not from the inside to the inside or the inside to the outside. Exception: summonings.
• Prevents scrying on the area from the outside to the inside, but not from the inside to the inside or the inside to the outside.
• Prevents scrying on all creatures who were in the area at the time of casting from anywhere.

So, intruders can still be spied upon and your own agents sent on missions can't be spied on by the enemy (at least not without epic spells). The enemy can't teleport to your base (unless he has epic spells), but you can teleport to his base, and you can teleport within the Cloister to intercept intruders.

The drawbacks are that if there's an enemy inside the area of effect when the spell is cast will also be protected, and if the enemy has already infiltrated the area, he can start teleporting inside it and out of it to get away.