General Havoc wrote:I have no earthly idea if such a thing is overpowered or not, as I don't know the "feel" of the combat system yet. As my character is not competing with anyone for the title of "most combat-effective", it really is not a matter of concern to me.
That is another point - if her character is an Ahroun, it only seems to fit.
If that's the case though, having all of our characters eventually getting nifty fetishes that help us in our respective areas might work, too.
A Theurge could be better served with a fetish that makes it easier to step sideways, or deal with spirits more easily, for instance.
General Havoc wrote:I have no earthly idea if such a thing is overpowered or not, as I don't know the "feel" of the combat system yet. As my character is not competing with anyone for the title of "most combat-effective", it really is not a matter of concern to me.
Well, I am, because both of us are playing Ahrouns. It's a very powerful fetish for a very cheap price. Allowing one character to have one and then not allowing others reasonable access to equivalent items is grossly unfair. I'm certainly not arguing that I should be the only player in the game to ever possess a badass weapon (which I paid more for and has drawbacks) be they Klaives, Grand Klaives, Jarl Hammers, or the equivalents.
EDIT: I don't really want one. It's just so powerful (and fucking cheap) that it's an arms race starter.
Last edited by Cynical Cat on Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
Is it powerful? Yes. Reducing the difficulty number below 7 is the third most powerful ability in White Wolf games(The other two.. Automatic successes on top of your roll, and the Auspicious effect which turns your whole pool into successes.. Are not really present in Werewolf.). So, no denying it's powerful.
Is it overpowered? And here is the harder question. Werewolf is, by it's very nature, a balls-to-the-wall, over the top, shit-gonna-die game. That the two Ahrouns are loaded to bring down shit that would make a Vampire sob in terror is exactly right.
Now. There's some powerful Fetishes here, and some haven't been fully appreciated yet. Perhaps people won't for a while. It should be noted that none of them could be made by such a young Pack. They all had previous owners, who probably made enemies.
Anyone Whose Had Me As DM Knows What That Means.
It is always more interesting, from a roleplay aspect, if you're not fighting for some random enemy goon's shiny. If it's your father's shiny, or your elder's gift for your trials, or somehow already tied to you.. Especially if you've used it to great effect and then felt declawed when it got filched.. There's more to the moment.
Finally, there's no such thing as a Fetish you can't get ahold of(Except Legendary and Bane ones, natch). Quite a few are Tribe-specific, so get ready to try and overcome factional distrust to get them.
So my view is, for now, run with it. Don't assume it will be yours forever. There's alot of enemies for a Garou. Heavily armed Garou are at once the most targetted, and the ones sent into the teeth of the storm.
Have fun, kiddies.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
SirNitram wrote:Well,
Finally, there's no such thing as a Fetish you can't get ahold of(Except Legendary and Bane ones, natch). Quite a few are Tribe-specific, so get ready to try and overcome factional distrust to get them.
Except Tribe specific means very little. A Jarl Hammer is tribe specific . . . but it's really just a Grand Klaive in hammer form. Just because tribe X is known for making fetish y doesn't mean tribe z can't make their own version. Especially when they can talk to and bind the same kind of spirits.
And you love massively broken anything. Having fun finding an overpowered combo is a lot different than actually allowing it in a game.
Last edited by Cynical Cat on Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
SirNitram wrote:Well,
Finally, there's no such thing as a Fetish you can't get ahold of(Except Legendary and Bane ones, natch). Quite a few are Tribe-specific, so get ready to try and overcome factional distrust to get them.
Except Tribe specific means very little. A Jarl Hammer is tribe specific . . . but it's really just a Grand Klaive in hammer form. Just because tribe X is known for making fetish y doesn't mean tribe z can't make their own version. Especially when they can talk to and bind the same kind of spirits.
And you love massively broken anything. Having fun finding an overpowered combo is a lot different than actually allowing it in a game.
Oh, I do love the theory of broken stuff. My approach just tends to be balancing the scales between a group of PCs and their adversaries. It's not the most popular solution to some, and it's not the most popular. However, I like it, mostly because it tends to lead to city blocks being eradicated in the process of fights.
And if I can't keep ahold of it, lots of methods exist to excise power that needs removed. Especially in Werewolf.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
rhoenix wrote:Just for the record, this is why I'm glad my character's special thing isn't a physical thing. But then, he's a Theurge - what did you expect?
*Looks at Natural Channel. Grins.*
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
SirNitram wrote:
Oh, I do love the theory of broken stuff. My approach just tends to be balancing the scales between a group of PCs and their adversaries. It's not the most popular solution to some, and it's not the most popular. However, I like it, mostly because it tends to lead to city blocks being eradicated in the process of fights.
And if I can't keep ahold of it, lots of methods exist to excise power that needs removed. Especially in Werewolf.
Can't say I like that first. Sometimes I don't mind playing second banana (see Charon's game) but most of the time being a second rate character while another is a superstar is very unpleasant. It's especially unpleasant if it's because of something broken. If I want to play a Storyteller game as a sidekick, I'll build a weakling or forfeit some freebees. A high powered game is a different story, but in a high powered game, one character isn't the sole possessor of an overpowered, underpriced item.
As for taking things away, it's even easier in Vampire.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
Cyncat, I should note you have a Fetish which is going to wreck shit on a level the Battle Torc wishes it could. Very few things in the world can soak the damage, which is very different from the enhancements the Torc give.
Anyone whose managed to bring ways to deal Agg into Vamp knows how horrific having no soak at all against something is.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
SirNitram wrote:Cyncat, I should note you have a Fetish which is going to wreck shit on a level the Battle Torc wishes it could. Very few things in the world can soak the damage, which is very different from the enhancements the Torc give.
Anyone whose managed to bring ways to deal Agg into Vamp knows how horrific having no soak at all against something is.
I know how bad it is. I also know that I paid more for it, it hoses my Gnosis, and it comes with complications. I also know that first you have to hit and doing a fuckload of aggravated damage doesn't help if you can't connect and your opponent does. Successes add to damage and with that torc there won't also be parries that succeed instead of fail and hits that connect instead of miss there will be hits that connect for more damage. In fact, there's a lot of defences against against aggravated damage and the first one is not being hit. Most foes won't be able to soak her claws any more than they can soak my Klaive, but she'll be hitting more.
And again, I'm not arguing that no one else in the group can get a handy magic silver weapon. Hell, Silver Claws is a level three Ahroun gift, not that far out of a starting player's reach to say nothing of what merely mundane silver weaponry can do. I'm not insisting on uniqueness. If the fetish is no big deal, then I should be able to get one before anyone else gets a klaive. It's a point less and doesn't require working with silver, which is a huge pain for garou. Shouldn't be a big deal at all if I get one.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
SirNitram wrote:Cyncat, I should note you have a Fetish which is going to wreck shit on a level the Battle Torc wishes it could. Very few things in the world can soak the damage, which is very different from the enhancements the Torc give.
Anyone whose managed to bring ways to deal Agg into Vamp knows how horrific having no soak at all against something is.
I know how bad it is. I also know that I paid more for it, it hoses my Gnosis, and it comes with complications. I also know that first you have to hit and doing a fuckload of aggravated damage doesn't help if you can't connect and your opponent does. Successes add to damage and with that torc there won't also be parries that succeed instead of fail and hits that connect instead of miss there will be hits that connect for more damage. In fact, there's a lot of defences against against aggravated damage and the first one is not being hit. Most foes won't be able to soak her claws any more than they can soak my Klaive, but she'll be hitting more.
And again, I'm not arguing that no one else in the group can get a handy magic silver weapon. Hell, Silver Claws is a level three Ahroun gift, not that far out of a starting player's reach to say nothing of what merely mundane silver weaponry can do. I'm not insisting on uniqueness. If the fetish is no big deal, then I should be able to get one before anyone else gets a klaive. It's a point less and doesn't require working with silver, which is a huge pain for garou. Shouldn't be a big deal at all if I get one.
Well, see, here's the thing. That I don't have a problem with. People going on quests for shiny objects is something I'll be willing to set up after the Pack was earned it's marks a bit. This goes for any and all.
The 'Second Fiddle' comment pissed me off, however, CynCat. I don't care if you feel like you're getting a raw deal on this and would like the chance to get ahold of more potent things. I don't support Klaives For All either way(Takes the 'Holy Shit' factor out of having one PC with one, cheapening them much like piles of Holy Avengers). But the Second Fiddle comment pissed me off for one reason: I was intially asked to Co-ST because we have begun setting up a whole sideplot for you. Now, my tendency is to give everyone days in the sun, but yours is going to wind up bigger because it's going to be building from the beginning.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
In my opinion -2 is a little big for a 3pt. fetish. a -1 for a two point fetish might be more appropriate or -2 for a 4 pt. fetish.
I played a character who (through GM "kindness", my blatant want to fuck my character over, and a LOT of freebie points) got advantages that lowered his rolls by 2. It was absolutely broken and frankly rather frightening to behold sometimes. So in my opinion make it a -1 for two or a -2 for four.
I'm sorry your pissed off because you feel your work was slighted, but that doesn't change the reality of the power and the cost of that fetish. I notice that your opinion on the matter of my feelings is "I don't care".
Fine. Do as you will. I have made my case and my feelings clear. Obviously the latter carry no weight.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
Cynical Cat wrote:I'm sorry your pissed off because you feel your work was slighted, but that doesn't change the reality of the power and the cost of that fetish. I notice that your opinion on the matter of my feelings is "I don't care".
Fine. Do as you will. I have made my case and my feelings clear. Obviously the latter carry no weight.
If your feelings are based off being second fiddle, yea, they don't carry any weight at all. I think the basic fact you're getting your own shiny thing that will be a sideplot is a nice refutation of this feeling.
Of course, if there was a general consensus on this, I'd feel differently. Perhaps we will tweak it. But you going on about how you're going to be second rate when you've got alot of your own and more to spare, no, you're not getting any credit for feelings about it.
You can either wait to see if the general feeling is in your favor or not, or you can leave. You stamping your foot when I've heard your case and don't agree with you(Which is different, no matter what you declare, from ignoring it or not caring about the case presented) does not engender warm fuzzies to take your declarations at face value.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
It's overpowered and underpriced and I'm certainly not the only one to think so. You admit it's one of the most powerful abilities possible . . . on a 3 point fetish with no cost to activate. Then you belittle me for being upset about it. And of course I'm the one being offensive and unreasonable.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
I am also going to make my point clear right now. Stamping feet and protesting when Nitram and I are busy creating a chapter from nothing just so your character can have his showdown with his 'uncles', is doing nothing but making you look bad in my eyes.
I would like you to stay.
However, I am not going to have this turn into a fight between ST and Player.
Dogs are Man's Best Friend
Cats are Man's Adorable Little Serial Killers
Enough, CynCat. I'm not going to be lied to my face. I'm belittling your declarations of how you feel you're playing second when you've gotten alot to counteract that.
Changes may happen. They will not happen because you're stamping your feet and making these kind of accusations based on nothing.
Half-Damned, All Hero.
Tev: You're happy. You're Plotting. You're Evil.
Me: Evil is so inappropriate. I'm ruthless.
Tev: You're turning me on.
SirNitram wrote:Enough, CynCat. I'm not going to be lied to my face. I'm belittling your declarations of how you feel you're playing second when you've gotten alot to counteract that.
Changes may happen. They will not happen because you're stamping your feet and making these kind of accusations based on nothing.
And now I you're calling me liar and you say you aren't belittling me. Go look in the mirror Martin. I've provided more than enough substance to substantiate my claims.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
#1 - I am not a power player. I play for the fun, not so I can wag my privates in others' faces
#2 - This is a char Tev made for me. If she gave it to me, you can believe she trusts me not to abuse it
#3 - As it is, I haven't looked at it that closely, so I'm not sure what the problem here is.
However, since it will get us over this pain in the ass conversation and allow us to get on with the game, Tev, Nit and I have worked out to make it +2 Dice to Melee, Brawl, Dodge, and Athletics (thrown weapons), instead of a -2 Difficulty.
On the other hand, if you quit that means I don't have to kick your ass to become Alpha... *eg*
Devonie wrote:#1 - I am not a power player. I play for the fun, not so I can wag my privates in others' faces
#2 - This is a char Tev made for me. If she gave it to me, you can believe she trusts me not to abuse it
#3 - As it is, I haven't looked at it that closely, so I'm not sure what the problem here is.
However, since it will get us over this pain in the ass conversation and allow us to get on with the game, Tev, Nit and I have worked out to make it +2 Dice to Melee, Brawl, Dodge, and Athletics (thrown weapons), instead of a -2 Difficulty.
On the other hand, if you quit that means I don't have to kick your ass to become Alpha... *eg*
It sounds good. And I'm more than happy with Beta.
It's not that I'm unforgiving, it's that most of the people who wrong me are unrepentant assholes.
