Links.

[frigidmagi]

I'm on a school computer right now but I defintely want to find these later.

The American/Prussian School system and why it sucks?

Why Nerds get picked on

Military deaths 1980 to 2006, list of deaths per each major war.

Same written has a report for Congress

[Rogue 9]

The third and fourth links are exactly the same.

[frigidmagi]

Not entirely.

[Rogue 9]

How are they not? The URLs are identical. Observe:

Code: Select all

[url=http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf]Military deaths 1980 to 2006, list of deaths per each major war.[/url]

[url=http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf]Same written has a report for Congress[/url][/quote]

They can't possibly lead to different documents, as it's the exact same Web address.

[frigidmagi]

One is an internal PDF the other is a Congress report. Get off it Rogue and leave my damn links alone.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

I'm on a school computer right now but I defintely want to find these later.

The American/Prussian School system and why it sucks?

Why Nerds get picked on

Very interesting reading about the Real School; it fits perfectly the facts about American public school, too. It sucks and pumps out massive numbers of dumb sheep because it was specifically designed to do so for an extinct authoritarian state!

[frigidmagi]

Very interesting reading about the Real School; it fits perfectly the facts about American public school, too. It sucks and pumps out massive numbers of dumb sheep because it was specifically designed to do so for an extinct authoritarian state!

I am currently looking for supporting data. But if this is right, no wonder the school system has collapsed. On top of the last generation of teachers embracing some mush headed fooliness of "validation" and "confidence building" the whole system clashes dramatically with our culture and the values communicated to the kids through mass media. What am I talking about?

Look at the heroes of the movies Matrix, V, Boondock Saints, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Are these guys conformist nestled safely in society and doing exactly what they're told? Oh fuck no. They are very much rebellion against the authority of their societies. While the Boondock Saints and the Turtles are doing so to uphold and protect their societies and V and Neo are fighting to destroy and replace their societies is a side issue. The point is the heroes do good by ignoring or rebelling against authority figures. This is a theme very often repeated in entertainment, which these days passes on values to children much more then teachers or priests do (I'm not saying this is good or bad, I'm saying this is the way it is).

Such a conflict cannot end well and it hasn't. It's ending with our school system falling apart in front of us and whole generations being lost.

[Hotfoot]

I think one of the most dangerous phrases we've passed on to our kids is that "You can do anything you want to do." Kids don't understand the hard work you have to put in to become good at anything, they just assume that you mean that if you want to do it, it will come to you. Popular media reinforces this when people just magically get what they want handed to them on a silver platter, even though they didn't really earn it.

Yes, we want to encourage our kids, to let them know that it's possible to go after their dreams, but we have to show them realistic expectations as well. Do kids you know have a dream? Show them what they need to do to achieve that dream. Show them what options they have towards doing that. Then, get them started on that path. There's nothing wrong with a six year old going "I wanna be an astronaut", but by the time they are in middle school they should have a damn good idea what is required of that profession so they can make plans for high school. Yes, what you do in high school makes a difference.

More high schools need to have internship programs, on that mark. Get the kids out there into the working world sooner so that they have an idea of what's required. Since we're going to have kids that won't go to college past high school, we might as well have a system in place to help them find good jobs out of high school.

I could go on for hours with the varied problems in the education system. At the end of the day, all I can do is hope that the kids that come into my classrooms will remember me as "one of the good ones".

[B4UTRUST]

Very interesting reading about the Real School; it fits perfectly the facts about American public school, too. It sucks and pumps out massive numbers of dumb sheep because it was specifically designed to do so for an extinct authoritarian state!

I am currently looking for supporting data. But if this is right, no wonder the school system has collapsed. On top of the last generation of teachers embracing some mush headed fooliness of "validation" and "confidence building" the whole system clashes dramatically with our culture and the values communicated to the kids through mass media. What am I talking about?

I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about because both my parents are teachers and several of my friends are as well and they're nothing like the ones you're describing, nor is any teacher I can think of off the top of my head.

Most teachers are more concerned with their students being able to pass a unending barrage of pointless standardized tests because it's not their asses on the line. Most teachers would be satisfied at the end of the day to say "If nothing else, I have taught him how to read." That's something thats becoming increasingly harder to accomplish, by the way.

Hell, I tell you what Frigid. If you want to talk to a teacher or two, I'll give my parents a ring and see if I can't convince my mom to come on the board to post and answer a few of your questions. It aint the teachers that are the failures here, though.

[SirNitram]

You know, it'd help education alot if there wasn't such widespread contempt for the intelligent. When 'intellectual' is an insult and the famous institutes of higher learning are viewed as 'elitist' in the bad way, you're not going to breed intelligent people. Nor does it help that every goddamn teacher I've met outside of Forman(A highly specialized private school for LD folks) has the same mindset: Save the bottom five percent. The smart kids? Fuck it, they can take care of themselves.

Of course, that'll offend people, not like I give a fuck.

[B4UTRUST]

You know, it'd help education alot if there wasn't such widespread contempt for the intelligent. When 'intellectual' is an insult and the famous institutes of higher learning are viewed as 'elitist' in the bad way, you're not going to breed intelligent people.

It's mostly in America that that seems to happen a lot. I can't explain why. Who the fuck knows.

Nor does it help that every goddamn teacher I've met outside of Forman(A highly specialized private school for LD folks) has the same mindset: Save the bottom five percent. The smart kids? Fuck it, they can take care of themselves.

That's bullshit, Nit. Teachers have that mindset you're so angry about because of the education system as a whole. Refer to my previous post about teachers having to teach for standardized tests, not for anything else. Every teacher I've ever talked too about that has said more or less the same thing: I don't have time to teach, I have to prep them for tests.

The problem with your statement is that the smart kids can take care of themselves. When you're going through a class and you know more then your teacher does, how the fuck is the teacher going to help you? If the teacher has to dumb down everything to the lowest moron in the class(usually a half-inbred country hick, jock, or miss fucking perfect prep slut) how is the smart kid benefiting? They don't. But chances are, they've already read the material and understand it without the teacher having to explain it 27 times, or hold their hand through Hamlet.

It's the bottom 5% that needs the help. It's also the bottom 5% that are going to fuck the teacher over when they fail their oh so lauded standardized test. Then it's the teacher's ass. That's why they try to keep that 5% passing.

[SirNitram]

You know, it'd help education alot if there wasn't such widespread contempt for the intelligent. When 'intellectual' is an insult and the famous institutes of higher learning are viewed as 'elitist' in the bad way, you're not going to breed intelligent people.

It's mostly in America that that seems to happen a lot. I can't explain why. Who the fuck knows.

Too many smalltowns. They encourage conformism. This caps the intelligence that is perceived as 'good' as that of the majority. Conformism is the problem.

Nor does it help that every goddamn teacher I've met outside of Forman(A highly specialized private school for LD folks) has the same mindset: Save the bottom five percent. The smart kids? Fuck it, they can take care of themselves.

That's bullshit, Nit. Teachers have that mindset you're so angry about because of the education system as a whole. Refer to my previous post about teachers having to teach for standardized tests, not for anything else. Every teacher I've ever talked too about that has said more or less the same thing: I don't have time to teach, I have to prep them for tests.

Funny. Standardized tests aren't as common in University... At least in the classes I was in, where I heard the same goddamn excuse.. Oh, I'll admit the obsession with standardized tests is goddamn stupid. I'll shout it from the rooftops. But trying to give the wannabe-heros who will carry on the charade I identified a pass, especially, when there's no standardized tests involved, is frankly dishonest.

The problem with your statement is that the smart kids can take care of themselves. When you're going through a class and you know more then your teacher does, how the fuck is the teacher going to help you? If the teacher has to dumb down everything to the lowest moron in the class(usually a half-inbred country hick, jock, or miss fucking perfect prep slut) how is the smart kid benefiting? They don't. But chances are, they've already read the material and understand it without the teacher having to explain it 27 times, or hold their hand through Hamlet.

If by 'take care of themselves', you mean revert to the default setting of humanity of 'being a lazy git and never striving', yes. Of course, this has an adverse effect on society, because it wastes the top percentage-point's potential. You'll note it's not the bottom five percent who made the godsdamned car or airplane.

It's the bottom 5% that needs the help. It's also the bottom 5% that are going to fuck the teacher over when they fail their oh so lauded standardized test. Then it's the teacher's ass. That's why they try to keep that 5% passing.

I wonder; do you realize why this flurry of standardized testings and 'no child left behind'-style unfunded boondoggles burst up from the eighties-nineties to today? It's because someone got it in their head that you can cheat the Normal Distribution, that Calculus is wrong, that you can avoid having a bottom 5%. Or, to put it into less higher math terms.. That you can impose conformity on society at large. Everyone goes to college. Everyone studies literature. That it fucks up society in the long term because it fails to get the brightest and best ready to do the revolutions they need to do is discarded.

[B4UTRUST]

I didn't do college or university. I was burnt out on school after I graduated from high school and opted into the military instead. I'll end up going after I'm out I'm sure. Never having dealt with the college level or higher education I can't comment on it. My parents are elementary and high school level as are most of the teachers I know.

You may indeed be correct about the college+ level education system. Again, I can't comment having no experiance there.

However, there is no choice for those teachers who work any level of the system below that. They don't have the option to not teach the material. It's state and federally mandated. There is no getting around it or avoiding it. So the wanna-be heroes are just doing their damned jobs the only way they can, which because of the system in place, is not a very good way.

And no, I don't refer to the 'take care of themselves' as 'become lazy and useless.' I know many smart, intelligent people who never did anything with higher learning and yet have gone on to do many great things. Not everyone who it left to their own devices fucks themselves over by coming to a standstill. Most of the people who fell into the smart kid catagory that I knew ended up taking matters into their own hands and teaching themselves. So yes, while we may not all go on to reinvent the wheel we aren't neccessary reverting to braindead morons.

Your idea that it was made in an attempt to cheat the system is a bit wrong too I think. Does it have a tendency to fuck over the smarter individuals? Yes. But it also strives to keep the rest of the masses educated at a minimum level. The situation admitantly doesn't work and the system is broken as all hell. It sucks, it's stupid. Everyone knows it doesn't work and nobody in power wants to do anything about it because to try to take away the 'no child left behind' idea is to say you no longer care about education.

I'm not trying to argue that the system sucks and the system is broken, I'm just explaining the reasons why the teachers do what they do.

[SirNitram]

I didn't do college or university. I was burnt out on school after I graduated from high school and opted into the military instead. I'll end up going after I'm out I'm sure. Never having dealt with the college level or higher education I can't comment on it. My parents are elementary and high school level as are most of the teachers I know.

I wasn't aware the fetish for standardized tests had hit elementary schools, but I shouldn't be surprised.

You may indeed be correct about the college+ level education system. Again, I can't comment having no experiance there.

However, there is no choice for those teachers who work any level of the system below that. They don't have the option to not teach the material. It's state and federally mandated. There is no getting around it or avoiding it. So the wanna-be heroes are just doing their damned jobs the only way they can, which because of the system in place, is not a very good way.

I know this. It's policy that needs to be killed with fucking fire. Because, as I said, you can't fight Calculus.

And no, I don't refer to the 'take care of themselves' as 'become lazy and useless.' I know many smart, intelligent people who never did anything with higher learning and yet have gone on to do many great things. Not everyone who it left to their own devices fucks themselves over by coming to a standstill. Most of the people who fell into the smart kid catagory that I knew ended up taking matters into their own hands and teaching themselves. So yes, while we may not all go on to reinvent the wheel we aren't neccessary reverting to braindead morons.

The intelligent rarely go braindead, but they certainly rarely reach full potential. The ones that do, on their own power, aren't necessarily the best folks(See DefCon, which you've mentioned. Brightest fucking minds of a generation.).

Your idea that it was made in an attempt to cheat the system is a bit wrong too I think. Does it have a tendency to fuck over the smarter individuals? Yes. But it also strives to keep the rest of the masses educated at a minimum level. The situation admitantly doesn't work and the system is broken as all hell. It sucks, it's stupid. Everyone knows it doesn't work and nobody in power wants to do anything about it because to try to take away the 'no child left behind' idea is to say you no longer care about education.

I'm not trying to argue that the system sucks and the system is broken, I'm just explaining the reasons why the teachers do what they do.

The problem is the minimum level sought by the current system is one disconnected from the needs of society and the individual. It's one based on 'feel-good' sunshine-pumping. A few decades ago, the public school system prepared folks for a working class job, because that's where most people went. And the result was prosperity. Sure, everyone didn't have to slog through Hamlet, but few people need to understand the travails of a Prince going out of his gourd to bring home food and keep the roof from leaking.

[B4UTRUST]

Yes the fetish hit elementary schools years ago. I get complaints from my mom on the subject all the time. My father isn't much better at the high school level. My mom teachers kindergarten, my dad teaches American History.

But, in addition to blaming the poor education system, I will also point blame at another party. Parents. Lets face it, if your child has a shitty home life then they're not going to be doing great in school for the most part. There are exceptions to this, as always, but for the most part it stands. That is part of the decline in the schools and society afterwards. It's not that the kids are to stupid to work anything other then menial jobs or manual labor it's that they never strive or care enough too. They're worn down and broken.

Now leave the people of DefCon alone! Not all of us who go there are the blackhat digital death dealers. There's usually representatives from nearly every major sectory in security. NSA, FBI, CIA, DoD, DoJ, Microsoft, Cisco, and pretty much every major leader of industry or government. Granted, a metric fuckton of attendees are degenerate IT professionals who use it as a fun little break from the norm and use every trick, exploit, bug, glitch and hack in their arsenal to wreck insurmountable damage to anyone crazy enough to attach a box to the network... But not all of us are. Jeff Moss would be most upset if he heard you speaking of Defconners as such...

Decades ago schools prepared people for working class jobs because thats where most went. Today people still mostly end up in working class jobs. Very few people will ever do anything with their lives that isn't menial mindless labor. That's just how it goes. It's sad, it sucks, but thats what schools need to prepare people for because thats what they get. You're not going to find more then one or two bright rays of light in the squaller that is the education system anymore. You're not going to suddenly come up with an Einstein or Hawking. It sucks and it shouldn't be like that but that's the way it is and the way it's going to stay more then likely.

[Mayabird]

Maybe someone could move this thread to somewhere that's not testing so it won't get autodeleted soon? I'm a little leery about joining in a conversation that might not exist shortly.

[LadyTevar]

Moved per request.

[Mared]

Guys. We don't teach Hamlet to inspire greatness. We teach Hamlet to get our students to read. I'm sorry. But the sad truth is US students have some of the lowest literacy rates in the world for industrial countries. What else would we have them read? Computer manuals? No. They read Hamlet and Pride and Prejudice with the hopes that maybe they'll absorb some culture as well. Plus, it's college prep for the very few who'll make it through the system.

You wanted programs just to make students job-ready. They exist. Students can walk into a school and instead of taking regular classes to graduate, they can take "Access" classes. Those classes are GED prep and Vocational Training. As a junior, students can choose vocational electives that count towards graduation credit and actually take them at the local technical college. I think that's selling out students short. We know that a college graduate will earn more after high school. But we are promoting these other programs instead.

You think standardized testing is bad. That's just one test at the end of the school year. Guess what? Now the states are telling teachers that every teacher who teaches a certain subject has to give the exact same test for each Unit. Think of a unit as a chapter or maybe a set of chapters. For example: Unit 2-2 in Civics in Louisiana is the Constitution. Now, every teacher in the school who is teaching Civics has to give the exact same test for the Constitution at the exact same time (give or take a day or two). How is that teaching to the students? How is that helping any? I can tell you from experience that those students who can help themselves are doing it. They benefit more from "helping themselves" then from any teaching I'm doing.

Our students are failing; failing at school and failing at life. Why? Maybe it's because our schools don't have the resourses they need to serve each and every student to the fullest potential. Maybe it's because our students no longer feel safe in the school environment. Hell, I teach in one and I don't feel safe. Maybe it's because parental values and home life have changed over the years. Maybe it's because we place too much value on the success on the lower 5%. Maybe it's because there are teachers out there who say "I've been doing it this way for 10 years and it's been good enough then, I'm not changing now." Teaching is a learning profession. You have to strive to learn to better yourself, no matter how long you've been "doing it." Or, here's a new concept, maybe it's a combination of all these things and some more, and no one has ever gotten off there asses, admitted there is a problem, and actually tried to FIX it, instead of placing blame or trying for greater accountability.

I do the best I can each day I walk into the classroom. And then I go home, and do more work to do better the next day. Some day, somehow, we've got to get it right. Otherwise, it's only going to get worse.

[frigidmagi]

They benefit more from "helping themselves" then from any teaching I'm doing.

Everything I have learned I have learned in spite of the school system, not because of it. That doesn't mean the teachers were stopping me.

[Mayabird]

Actually my teachers (except my band director) were actively trying to stop me at every turn and only their sheer incompetence and stupidity kept them from getting to me the same way they got everyone else, but we've established that I was under special circumstances.

[Cynical Cat]

I had good teachers and good classes in high school. To be fair, I went to a high school (public school) with a good academic reputation.