Superman vs Emperor Papaltine

[Comrade Tortoise]

Slight question. Because I dont know much of the comic-verse superman.

Is his nerve conduction velocity in his sensory neurons any faster than your average bear? Because that is what will really make this I think. How fast he moves doesnt matter if the amount of time it takes him to process sensory information does not allow him to react to palpatine's precognition-induced lightning trajectories.

he still has to process sensory input

[SirNitram]

ALright, Batman, this has become farcical. Either provide evidence to back up any of your claims(That precog can't work on positive-but-tiny reaction times, despite it working on negative reaction times, that blaster bolts are massively different from TL technology apart from all data and that the movies explicitly show this, et cetera), or shut the fuck up. I tire of this.

You clearly think you're being reasonable, but now you're just being childish. You literally say you don't 'like' that Jedi have negative reaction time: Tough, they do. I've shown it repeatedly. You have yet to prove otherwise, just assert it to be so. Of course, I'd love to see you show me a single sonic boom created by Superman acting so-super-duper-fast he would smash a Jedi or Sith before they could react even with their lead time. What? His fist has never done such? Gee willikers, better claim that makes someone unreasonable for suggesting he can't do what we can't see!

The 'I refuse to accept the Force is magic' is truly laughable. Force Lightning flays souls, Force powers act like magic.. When will you define what makes magic magic? Oh right, you won't.

There. I'm done. Unless you're going to debate honestly for once, this necro is over. Your pathetic handwaving just shows you to be a comic fucking wanker. Too bad. So sad.

Oh, by the by. If you still think you can win this one without addressing any of my arguments with data as opposed to..

I already explained why I don't like the negative number bit WRT reaction time,

..Your silly little 'likes', calculate and quantify how many newtons of force Superman uses when punching someone out. And I'll show you what a Padawan can negate. And we'll see if that'd even work out.

[SirNitram]

Slight question. Because I dont know much of the comic-verse superman.

Is his nerve conduction velocity in his sensory neurons any faster than your average bear? Because that is what will really make this I think. How fast he moves doesnt matter if the amount of time it takes him to process sensory information does not allow him to react to palpatine's precognition-induced lightning trajectories.

he still has to process sensory input

Superman's reaction time is above human norm. In the Silver Age, he had nanosecond or lower reaction times. In TimmVerse, he is roughly Human Norm. Bronze Age(AKA modern) Superman generally seems slightly above human norm.

[frigidmagi]

Of course, I'd love to see you show me a single sonic boom created by Superman acting so-super-duper-fast he would smash a Jedi or Sith before they could react even with their lead time. What? His fist has never done such?

Death of Superman Arc, Supes swings so fast in the brawl with Doomsday he creates a sonic boom that shatters glass for hundreds of the miles around.

In the year 2000 he fights Mongul the alien overlord of WarWorld and again creates a sonic boom with just his fist.

[SirNitram]

Of course, I'd love to see you show me a single sonic boom created by Superman acting so-super-duper-fast he would smash a Jedi or Sith before they could react even with their lead time. What? His fist has never done such?

Death of Superman Arc, Supes swings so fast in the brawl with Doomsday he creates a sonic boom that shatters glass for hundreds of the miles around.

In the year 2000 he fights Mongul the alien overlord of WarWorld and again creates a sonic boom with just his fist.

Thank you, Frigid.

This of course shows that no magic 'Psudeo-Speed Force' acts on Superman; he will create shockwaves.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Slight question. Because I dont know much of the comic-verse superman.

Is his nerve conduction velocity in his sensory neurons any faster than your average bear? Because that is what will really make this I think. How fast he moves doesnt matter if the amount of time it takes him to process sensory information does not allow him to react to palpatine's precognition-induced lightning trajectories.

he still has to process sensory input

Superman's reaction time is above human norm. In the Silver Age, he had nanosecond or lower reaction times. In TimmVerse, he is roughly Human Norm. Bronze Age(AKA modern) Superman generally seems slightly above human norm.

Ok. So it would be safe to say this modern superman, the one specified, would not reasonably be able to react to a change in lightning trajectory, even if we grant that it does not have tracking ability. He may have a faster reaction time,but his brain is not a quantum computer.

[Batman]

ALright, Batman, this has become farcical. Either provide evidence to back up any of your claims(That precog can't work on positive-but-tiny reaction times,

I never said it doesn't work. I said it doesn't MATTER.

despite it working on negative reaction times,

Except the reaction times AREN'T negative. Jedi START reacting before the events they react to occur. That doesn't mean they FINISH reacting before that. The net reaction time is still positive if infinitesimal compared to a baseline human.

that blaster bolts are massively different from TL technology apart from all data and that the movies explicitly show this, et cetera),

except the movies, to my knowledge, DON'T show this. We know for a fact that TLs do damage before the visible bolt hits. No such thing happens with hand blaster bolts, and as Jedi who manage to deflect blaster bolts NEVER start doing so until AFTER the visible bolt is underway this implies that hand blaster bolts do NOT move at c.

You clearly think you're being reasonable, but now you're just being childish. You literally say you don't 'like' that Jedi have negative reaction time: Tough, they do.

No they don't. And again, I've already explained why I dislike the term negative reaction time while ADMITTING that Jedi start reacting to events before they actually happen. I'm not the one being childish here.

I've shown it repeatedly.

No you haven't. You showed that Jedi can, thanks to precog, START reacting to events before they happen (in battle apparently by less than a second). The time they take to FINISH reacting, if longer than the range of their precog (which doesn't seem to be much) means their EFFECTIVE reaction time remains positive.

You have yet to prove otherwise, just assert it to be so. Of course, I'd love to see you show me a single sonic boom created by Superman acting so-super-duper-fast he would smash a Jedi or Sith before they could react even with their lead time. What? His fist has never done such? Gee willikers, better claim that makes someone unreasonable for suggesting he can't do what we can't see!

Somebody has a reading comprehension problem. We KNOW FOR A FACT that in the DCU you CAN do such stuff WITHOUT creating sonic booms leave alone the much more severe problems associated with fractional-c in-atmosphere movement. We know for a fact that Clark can fracture a moon with a single punch.We know for a fact that he can outrun bullets, that he can go from Metropolis to the North Pole in a matter of minutes low-end, yet NONE of the side effects that should entail ever happen. Neither does it for people going orbital in a matter of seconds. The various Flashes. The Green Lanterns.

The 'I refuse to accept the Force is magic' is truly laughable. Force Lightning flays souls, Force powers act like magic.. When will you define what makes magic magic? Oh right, you won't.

I never said I REFUSED the Force might be magic. There simply is nothing about the Force that is unique to Magic as opposed to Psi powers, for example. GL Power Rings act like magic too by your definition as do Lensmen lenses or a ton of Perryverse high level technology. Does that make them magic?
I don't have to show it isn't, YOU have to show it IS if I understand the rules right.

There. I'm done. Unless you're going to debate honestly for once, this necro is over. Your pathetic handwaving just shows you to be a comic fucking wanker. Too bad. So sad.

Let's see-tons of evidence for Clark being faster than a speeding bullet at the very lowest end, tons of evidence for him having the power to paste any Jedi, NO evidence for Jedi reacting in time to compensate for Clark's speed, NO evidence for the Force actually exploiting Clark's magic weakness even if Palpy had the time to exploit it in the first place...

Oh, by the by. If you still think you can win this one without addressing any of my arguments with data as opposed to..

I already explained why I don't like the negative number bit WRT reaction time,

..Your silly little 'likes', calculate and quantify how many newtons of force Superman uses when punching someone out.

Several GT. Saturn has one less moon thanks to him. Next.

[SirNitram]

ALright, Batman, this has become farcical. Either provide evidence to back up any of your claims(That precog can't work on positive-but-tiny reaction times,

I never said it doesn't work. I said it doesn't MATTER.

Of course it matters. It grants Palpatine the initiative. One wave of hand, Superman's brain stops receiving O2. Or his muscles constrict. Or fuck, he just gets his soul flayed off for his trouble.

despite it working on negative reaction times,

Except the reaction times AREN'T negative. Jedi START reacting before the events they react to occur. That doesn't mean they FINISH reacting before that. The net reaction time is still positive if infinitesimal compared to a baseline human.

Which is going to be faster than someone who has to process data after the event begins. Which has been the point from post one of mine.

that blaster bolts are massively different from TL technology apart from all data and that the movies explicitly show this, et cetera),

except the movies, to my knowledge, DON'T show this. We know for a fact that TLs do damage before the visible bolt hits. No such thing happens with hand blaster bolts, and as Jedi who manage to deflect blaster bolts NEVER start doing so until AFTER the visible bolt is underway this implies that hand blaster bolts do NOT move at c.

TL's very occasionally do damage before the impact. There's maybe three or four incidents before it was canonized. And IIRC, one of Saxton's original proofs of this effect was.. Dun dun dun.. Sail barge scene, Luke's wrist. I could be wrong, but you've yet to show there is any difference in tech. Without frame-by-frame, we'd never notice the TL effect.

You clearly think you're being reasonable, but now you're just being childish. You literally say you don't 'like' that Jedi have negative reaction time: Tough, they do.

No they don't. And again, I've already explained why I dislike the term negative reaction time while ADMITTING that Jedi start reacting to events before they actually happen. I'm not the one being childish here.

No, you are. You're being petulent, and very ignorant, much like a child, as shown whenever you make declarations on what happens in canon. Again, you're the one who said the movies explicitly showed blasters are nothing like TLs, but are still hemming and hawing without evidence.

I've shown it repeatedly.

No you haven't. You showed that Jedi can, thanks to precog, START reacting to events before they happen (in battle apparently by less than a second). The time they take to FINISH reacting, if longer than the range of their precog (which doesn't seem to be much) means their EFFECTIVE reaction time remains positive.

'Which doesn't seem to be much'. Right. Prove it. Quantify. Anything, kid. I'm tired of this vague handwaving, 'I don't want to admit anything' crap of yours.

You have yet to prove otherwise, just assert it to be so. Of course, I'd love to see you show me a single sonic boom created by Superman acting so-super-duper-fast he would smash a Jedi or Sith before they could react even with their lead time. What? His fist has never done such? Gee willikers, better claim that makes someone unreasonable for suggesting he can't do what we can't see!

Somebody has a reading comprehension problem. We KNOW FOR A FACT that in the DCU you CAN do such stuff WITHOUT creating sonic booms leave alone the much more severe problems associated with fractional-c in-atmosphere movement. We know for a fact that Clark can fracture a moon with a single punch.We know for a fact that he can outrun bullets, that he can go from Metropolis to the North Pole in a matter of minutes low-end, yet NONE of the side effects that should entail ever happen. Neither does it for people going orbital in a matter of seconds. The various Flashes. The Green Lanterns.

By the way...

You're wrong.

Clark does create Shockwaves. Death Of Superman. While Frigid answered it, it was a primitive logic trap to see if you knew what you babbled about. You don't. Superman creates shockwaves when he goes all out. There's no Kryptonian Force, or whatever, acting on Superman.

The 'I refuse to accept the Force is magic' is truly laughable. Force Lightning flays souls, Force powers act like magic.. When will you define what makes magic magic? Oh right, you won't.

I never said I REFUSED the Force might be magic. There simply is nothing about the Force that is unique to Magic as opposed to Psi powers, for example. GL Power Rings act like magic too by your definition as do Lensmen lenses or a ton of Perryverse high level technology. Does that make them magic?

Explain what makes it uniquely magical. Now.

I don't have to show it isn't, YOU have to show it IS if I understand the rules right.

Since you claim(Even if you fuck it up in execution) to know the canon: Define what makes Magic, Magic.

There. I'm done. Unless you're going to debate honestly for once, this necro is over. Your pathetic handwaving just shows you to be a comic fucking wanker. Too bad. So sad.

Let's see-tons of evidence for Clark being faster than a speeding bullet at the very lowest end, tons of evidence for him having the power to paste any Jedi, NO evidence for Jedi reacting in time to compensate for Clark's speed, NO evidence for the Force actually exploiting Clark's magic weakness even if Palpy had the time to exploit it in the first place...

Bullshit from front to back. But that's not a surprise.

Oh, by the by. If you still think you can win this one without addressing any of my arguments with data as opposed to..

I already explained why I don't like the negative number bit WRT reaction time,

..Your silly little 'likes', calculate and quantify how many newtons of force Superman uses when punching someone out.

Several GT. Saturn has one less moon thanks to him. Next.

And you claim I have a reading comprehension problem? 'Punching someone out', dumbass.

Gods, you're too easy. There's no Speed Force for Supes, he creates shockwaves when he takes off the gloves. Next victim, please: This one is clogging my pretty Fantasy forum.

[Batman]

ALright, Batman, this has become farcical. Either provide evidence to back up any of your claims(That precog can't work on positive-but-tiny reaction times,

I never said it doesn't work. I said it doesn't MATTER.

Of course it matters. It grants Palpatine the initiative. One wave of hand, Superman's brain stops receiving O2.

So? The guy apparently needs to breath every other leap year or so.

Or his muscles constrict.

Assuming Palpy has time to do this in the first place.

Or fuck, he just gets his soul flayed off for his trouble.

Again assuming that Palpy has the time to do this. That being said as Clark DOES seem to be vulnerable to psychic attacks wether they are magic-based or not that may absolutely work.

despite it working on negative reaction times,

Except the reaction times AREN'T negative. Jedi START reacting before the events they react to occur. That doesn't mean they FINISH reacting before that. The net reaction time is still positive if infinitesimal compared to a baseline human.

Which is going to be faster than someone who has to process data after the event begins.

Because you say so? I don't think so.

Which has been the point from post one of mine.

And it's still wrong. The Jedi start reacting at T minus 1 second, and finish reacting at T+.001 second. Clark starts reacting at T+.0001 and finishes at T+.00017. To Valendamned bad for the Jedi.

that blaster bolts are massively different from TL technology apart from all data and that the movies explicitly show this, et cetera),

except the movies, to my knowledge, DON'T show this. We know for a fact that TLs do damage before the visible bolt hits. No such thing happens with hand blaster bolts, and as Jedi who manage to deflect blaster bolts NEVER start doing so until AFTER the visible bolt is underway this implies that hand blaster bolts do NOT move at c.

TL's very occasionally do damage before the impact. There's maybe three or four incidents before it was canonized. And IIRC, one of Saxton's original proofs of this effect was.. Dun dun dun.. Sail barge scene, Luke's wrist. I could be wrong, but you've yet to show there is any difference in tech. Without frame-by-frame, we'd never notice the TL effect.

I'm generally inclined to AGREE that hand blasters and TLs work on the same principles because frankly I don't like the idea that they don't what with the visuals being nearly identical and, as you say, the operating principles apparently being similar. However the fact that we NEVER witness the damage before visible bolt hit effect in hand blasters (to my knowledge anyway) or see Jedi react to blaster bolts before they are visibly underway indicates to me that those bolts are not that fast to begin with.

You clearly think you're being reasonable, but now you're just being childish. You literally say you don't 'like' that Jedi have negative reaction time: Tough, they do.

No they don't. And again, I've already explained why I dislike the term negative reaction time while ADMITTING that Jedi start reacting to events before they actually happen. I'm not the one being childish here.

No, you are. You're being petulent, and very ignorant, much like a child, as shown whenever you make declarations on what happens in canon. Again, you're the one who said the movies explicitly showed blasters are nothing like TLs, but are still hemming and hawing without evidence.

There is not a single incidence of hand blaster bolts moving faster than the visible portion. Every incidence of a Jedi NOT moving to block a blaster bolt before the visible bolt is underway implicates that no they aren't, or not by any margin worth mentioning.

I've shown it repeatedly.

No you haven't. You showed that Jedi can, thanks to precog, START reacting to events before they happen (in battle apparently by less than a second). The time they take to FINISH reacting, if longer than the range of their precog (which doesn't seem to be much) means their EFFECTIVE reaction time remains positive.

'Which doesn't seem to be much'. Right. Prove it. Quantify. Anything, kid.

Why? It's not like YOU did. The temporal range of Jedi battle precog is apparently nothing to brag about yet you assume they can compensate for dealing with a being that regularly outruns bullets.

I'm tired of this vague handwaving, 'I don't want to admit anything' crap of yours.

Funny, you're doing the same thing WRT Palpy.

You have yet to prove otherwise, just assert it to be so. Of course, I'd love to see you show me a single sonic boom created by Superman acting so-super-duper-fast he would smash a Jedi or Sith before they could react even with their lead time. What? His fist has never done such? Gee willikers, better claim that makes someone unreasonable for suggesting he can't do what we can't see!

Somebody has a reading comprehension problem. We KNOW FOR A FACT that in the DCU you CAN do such stuff WITHOUT creating sonic booms leave alone the much more severe problems associated with fractional-c in-atmosphere movement. We know for a fact that Clark can fracture a moon with a single punch.We know for a fact that he can outrun bullets, that he can go from Metropolis to the North Pole in a matter of minutes low-end, yet NONE of the side effects that should entail ever happen. Neither does it for people going orbital in a matter of seconds. The various Flashes. The Green Lanterns.

By the way...
You're wrong.
Clark does create Shockwaves. Death Of Superman. While Frigid answered it, it was a primitive logic trap to see if you knew what you babbled about. You don't. Superman creates shockwaves when he goes all out.

Curious how that DOESN'T happen on any number of OTHER occasions, then. Occasions where we know that yes he DOES move at speeds that would result in that kind of side effects in the real world.

There's no Kryptonian Force, or whatever, acting on Superman.

Then how can he move fast enough to intercept bullets without anybody noticing? Go from Metropolis to the North Pole in a matter of minutes? Run through a desert at Mach 3.3 or thereabouts with the only side effect being a little raised dust?

The 'I refuse to accept the Force is magic' is truly laughable. Force Lightning flays souls, Force powers act like magic.. When will you define what makes magic magic? Oh right, you won't.

I never said I REFUSED the Force might be magic. There simply is nothing about the Force that is unique to Magic as opposed to Psi powers, for example. GL Power Rings act like magic too by your definition as do Lensmen lenses or a ton of Perryverse high level technology. Does that make them magic?

Explain what makes it uniquely magical. Now.

YOU are the one claiming that the Force has to be magic, not me. I showed a number of phenomena that fit your definition of magic while not actually BEING magic. I don't have to show a thing.

I don't have to show it isn't, YOU have to show it IS if I understand the rules right.

Since you claim(Even if you fuck it up in execution) to know the canon: Define what makes Magic, Magic.

YOU are the one claiming the Force is magic. YOU do. There's nothing about the Force that ISN'T evidenced by NON-magical phenomena.

There. I'm done. Unless you're going to debate honestly for once, this necro is over. Your pathetic handwaving just shows you to be a comic fucking wanker. Too bad. So sad.

Let's see-tons of evidence for Clark being faster than a speeding bullet at the very lowest end, tons of evidence for him having the power to paste any Jedi, NO evidence for Jedi reacting in time to compensate for Clark's speed, NO evidence for the Force actually exploiting Clark's magic weakness even if Palpy had the time to exploit it in the first place...

Bullshit from front to back. But that's not a surprise.

Same here.

Oh, by the by. If you still think you can win this one without addressing any of my arguments with data as opposed to.. ..Your silly little 'likes', calculate and quantify how many newtons of force Superman uses when punching someone out.

Several GT. Saturn has one less moon thanks to him. Next.

And you claim I have a reading comprehension problem? 'Punching someone out', dumbass.

Ah yes. Clark can blow a moon to smithereens but he can't apply the same force to an opponent?

Gods, you're too easy. There's no Speed Force for Supes

except he rarely creates the side effects one would expect from him moving at the speed he does. It's probably not the Speed Force but there is SOMETHING about Clark's superspeed that saves Earth from suffering from him being inconsiderate about employing it.

, he creates shockwaves when he takes off the gloves.

...every once in a blue moon.When the vast majority of his fights have no side effects along those lines whatsoever.

[Josh]

"And now, young Skywalker, your thread will be... locked."

This one just ain't going anywhere, guys.