Superman vs Emperor Papaltine

[Narsil]

Palpy was the only one that I'm aware of who could actually make the force storms and he could make them large enough to take out a fleet of starships. They're basically contained areas of warped space/time from what I know of.

Considering how it's Palpy versus Superman...

The fact that only Palpy could do it is kind of a moot point.

[Batman]

Methinks this is mainly to answer my 'Um-so what do forcestorms actually do' question.

[SirNitram]

Jedi precog appears to be rather limited in temporal range when making precise predictions ('always in motion is the future'). Can Palpy react fast enough to compensate for Supes' speed?

Battle precog != Predicting events far away and several hours/days away.

And given all he has to do is the Force Storm in Supes' way.. It's not like he must do much.

[Batman]

That was sort of my point, you know. assuming that the Force storm can hurt Clark, will Palpy have enough time to start it? The guy's fast these days.
I think we need more information on the setup.

[SirNitram]

That was sort of my point, you know. assuming that the Force storm can hurt Clark, will Palpy have enough time to start it? The guy's fast these days.
I think we need more information on the setup.

What part of 'Know it's coming beforehand' is obscure? And it's not like the things take ages to set up.

[Batman]

What part of 'Know it's coming beforehand' is obscure? And it's not like the things take ages to set down.

We're not talking ages, we're talking fractions of a second unless Clark starts out lightseconds away. Assuming, as I said, smart Clark as opposed to canon Clark.

[frigidmagi]

Uh Gentlemen, I said Palpatine as of Return of the Jedi. Is there any evidence for him being able to do Force Storms in that time frame?

[Comrade Tortoise]

Even if he cant, SUperman has a more or less human mind last I checked. Palpy is not clouded by the dark side like the Jedi were in the prequels. He WILL know in advance that Supes is coming. He may well know significantly in advance.

Now, a lot of this depends on timeframes, but given sufficient lead time, palpy could just mindfuck supes.

[frigidmagi]

They are already face to face CT. It doesn't matter if he can see it coming, Superman can break the damn sound barrier.

[Comrade Tortoise]

They are already face to face CT. It doesn't matter if he can see it coming, Superman can break the damn sound barrier.

Can he beat the nerve conduction barrier? He does have a reaction time.

[frigidmagi]

Yes he does have a reaction time, however it's several massive orders higher than the Emperors.

[Batman]

Yes he does have a reaction time, however it's several massive orders higher than the Emperors.

Is that just bad wording or a leftover from April 1st?

[Narsil]

Uh Gentlemen, I said Palpatine as of Return of the Jedi. Is there any evidence for him being able to do Force Storms in that time frame?

Well... considering that it was a direct reborn clone of that exact Palpatine that did the storms. My guess would be: he can do them.

[frigidmagi]

The clone is not Palpatine from Return of the Jedi. He's a Sith Lord reborn after a time in direct contact with the force.

Therefore the claim that the clone did it does not cut it with me.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Sorry if this is breaking any thread necromancy rules or anything, but I had to weigh in on this.

It is well established that a Force User can anchor his "spirit" (for lack of a better term) to the physical world. This is how Obi-wan can talk to Luke and Yoda after Vader kills him.

So, here's my theory:

Thanks to his precognitive abilities, Palpatine is aware of Superman's approach by at least a few fractions of a second. Superman, once he gets within close range, can and does easily defeat Palpatine. Palpatine, however, anchors his spirit to the physical world as I described above. Given Palpatine's immense experience and ability at influencing people's minds with the Force (witness the prequel films, and we have no reason to think he stopped after taking over), and his ability to basically follow Superman wherever (Ben showed up on Hoth, Dagobah, and Endor, all parsecs distant from each other), I think it's safe to say that even if the Force does not exploit Superman's weakness to magic, over time, Palpatine will eventually be able to take over Superman's mind, perhaps even to the point of actually possessing his body. Then you have Palpatine's mind in Superman's body, with all the powers of both.

Victor: Palpatine.

[Batman]

Sorry if this is breaking any thread necromancy rules or anything, but I had to weigh in on this.

It is well etablished that a Force User can anchor his "spirit" (for lack of a better term) to the physical world.

No it isn't. Actually as per HTTE it is heavily implied that a Force User can anchor his spirit to ANOTHER Force User.

This is how Obi-wan can talk to Luke and Yoda after Vader kills him.

Wrong. See above.

So, here's my theory:
Thanks to his precognitive abilities, Palpatine is aware of Superman's approach by at least a few fractions of a second.

Debatable at best and even if true irrelevant given Clark moves at significant fractions of c if need be. Palpy can't REACT fast enough to matter in a tactical situation.

Superman, once he gets within close range, can and does easily defeat Palpatine. Palpatine, however, anchors his spirit to the physical world as I described above.

Which even if it works requires another Force User. There's exactly zero[ accounts of Jedi anchoring their spirit to inanimate objects.

Given Palpatine's immense experience and ability at influencing people's minds with the Force (witness the prequel films,

Where there is no evidence of him doing so in the first place,

and we have no reason to think he stopped after taking over), and his ability to basically follow Superman wherever

Which is, again, evidenced by nothing whatsoever,

(Ben showed up on Hoth, Dagobah, and Endor, all parsecs distant from each other),

So?

I think it's safe to say that even if the Force does not exploit Superman's weakness to magic, over time, Palpatine will eventually be able to take over Superman's mind,

except he won't live long enough for that to happen.

perhaps even to the point of actually possessing his body. Then you have Palpatine's mind in Superman's body, with all the powers of both.

Happily ignoring the fact that Clark can wipe out Palpy in a fraction of a second without noticing.

Victor: Palpatine.

Or not.

[SirNitram]

Debatable at best and even if true irrelevant given Clark moves at significant fractions of c if need be. Palpy can't REACT fast enough to matter in a tactical situation.

I tire of this nonsense. THis presumes Palpatine's reaction time is a positive number, or zero. It is not. It is negative. He has combat precognition; he knows what Superman is doing well, well before Superman is doing it. It does not matter if Superman is uber-fast, because Palpatine can start reacting beforehand and it will take effect when the Boy Scout completes.

This blatant repetition of 'No, no, no' in the face of this simple logic tires me to no end.

[Batman]

Debatable at best and even if true irrelevant given Clark moves at significant fractions of c if need be. Palpy can't REACT fast enough to matter in a tactical situation.

I tire of this nonsense. THis presumes Palpatine's reaction time is a positive number, or zero. It is not. It is negative. He has combat precognition; he knows what Superman is doing well, well before Superman is doing it

Completely unproven. Jedi have Combat Precog sufficient to enable them to react fast enough to deal with blaster bolts which apparently travel at a rather pathetic fraction of c. Clark can move faster than that, though admittedly not neccessarily without a considerable run-up.
And Palpy's reaction time IS positive. He can indubitably start reacting before Clark does whatever he eventually does, but as Clark can finish whatever he's doing long before Palpy does anything (extreme Force Powers may be powerful but they don't seem to be all that fast) Clark wins.

It does not matter if Superman is uber-fast,

Yes it does. See above.

because Palpatine can start reacting beforehand and it will take effect when the Boy Scout completes.

Assuming that Palpatine's Force Powers , unlike Clark's doings, do NOT actually have a duration.

This blatant repetition of 'No, no, no' in the face of this simple logic tires me to no end.

Funny given that YOU are the one doing it. Clark can move at significant fractions of c, if need be in-atmosphere. Palpy has Jedi Precog. My money is sure as hell not on the Senator.

[SirNitram]

Debatable at best and even if true irrelevant given Clark moves at significant fractions of c if need be. Palpy can't REACT fast enough to matter in a tactical situation.

I tire of this nonsense. THis presumes Palpatine's reaction time is a positive number, or zero. It is not. It is negative. He has combat precognition; he knows what Superman is doing well, well before Superman is doing it

Completely unproven. Jedi have Combat Precog sufficient to enable them to react fast enough to deal with blaster bolts which apparently travel at a rather pathetic fraction of c. Clark can move faster than that, though admittedly not neccessarily without a considerable run-up.

Sorry, but the canon is quite clear that blaster fire is a massless shot at cee. You may not like Dr. Saxton, but ultimately, Lucas gave him the nod.

And Palpy's reaction time IS positive. He can indubitably start reacting before Clark does whatever he eventually does, but as Clark can finish whatever he's doing long before Palpy does anything (extreme Force Powers may be powerful but they don't seem to be all that fast) Clark wins.

Prove it's positive. You just asserted it and then failed to back it up. This bores me.

It does not matter if Superman is uber-fast,

Yes it does. See above.

because Palpatine can start reacting beforehand and it will take effect when the Boy Scout completes.

Assuming that Palpatine's Force Powers , unlike Clark's doings, do NOT actually have a duration.

No, the time to execute just has to coincide with Clark starting his action.

This blatant repetition of 'No, no, no' in the face of this simple logic tires me to no end.

Funny given that YOU are the one doing it. Clark can move at significant fractions of c, if need be in-atmosphere. Palpy has Jedi Precog. My money is sure as hell not on the Senator.

This is because you don't know what you're talking about, as evidenced by the fact you loudly proclaim you're right, that Palpatine's reaction time is positive, and utterly fail to demonstrate this. Jedi Precog can extend hours, days ahead, and that was Luke in his training. A Sith Lord of Palpy's calibur is going to simply hit Superman in the chest with Force Lightning and flay his soul.

[The Silence and I]

I have a question, Nitram. What is the limit? Palpy's reaction time is negative, but how negative it is still matters. If the absolute value is too low compared with Superman's top speed, Palpy cannot react in time.*

Here's a simple working example:
For the sake of argument I'm saying Sups can go from his starting point to striking Palps in 0.001 seconds. Further I am stating Palps can see 0.25 seconds into the future, and based on the two opponents' starting positions he can effectively defend himself in no less than 0.15 seconds (arbitrary limit on body speed).

0.25 seconds before Sups does a thing Palps knows where he will strike, and begins taking the fastest possible defensive action. This is time t=0. 0.15 seconds later Palps finishes his defensive action, with 0.999 seconds to spare. He is saved! Seems to look bad for the boy scout, but what happens if Sups delivers a chain of attacks, and not one?

The above happens and Sups' first attack is blocked, maybe his second too (Palps has 2 arms) but no amount of precog will save Palps from the third. For the hell of it I'll say Sups can throw a punch every 0.0001 seconds. Palps can neither move fast enough nor has sufficient independently moveable body parts to defend against that.


Here's a second, less simple, working example:
Previously I assumed Sups is some kind of preprogrammed machine which does not react to Palps' movements. Now I will assume he has a brain and uses it. I will use the same arbitrary numbers.

0.25 seconds before Sups does a thing Palps moves. Stop. It's a new game now! Sups can react to that. I'll give him a reaction time of 0.001 seconds considering how fast he is. Now 0.001 seconds after Palps moves Sups has the option to change his attack. Here is where it gets sticky for Palps: Sups can change his attacks faster (literally orders of magnitude faster) than Palps can change his defenses. Now instead of beginning his attack at time t=0.25 seconds Sups can decide to begin at time t=0.001. He will finish his attack at time t=0.002, a full 0.148 seconds before Palps can finish his defensive action. Palps goes down hard.

'But wait! You say, what about the precog, you all but ignored it up there!' I don't have a choice, Sups can react to, get in, strike 1470 times, and return to his starting position in the time it would have taken a healthy Palps to complete ONE defensive action. All the precog in the world cannot compete with that. You could say Palps will see all this coming, but what can he possibly do about it? If he expects Sups to change his attacks, and knows what must be done to defend against them, he is still powerless to effect those defenses before he is paste. For the more math inclined people: If Sups' reaction time (T) added to his time to target, attack (A) is less than Palps' time to defend (D) then Palps' precog will only show him his own death.


If I grant Sups the power to react to his environment Palps cannot be expected to block a single attack. If I take this power away Sups will still overwhelm Palps's defenses the same way a barrage of blaster fire will.


*To paraphrase Rock Lee from the anime Naruto: 'it does not matter if your eyes can see, if your body is too slow to react.'



EDIT: This post evolved as I wrote it, as my posts often do, and to clarify I'd like to point out that the opening lines are less important now than I thought they were when I wrote them. The real limiting factor I Palps' movement speed, not so much his precog abilities.

[SirNitram]

I have a question, Nitram. What is the limit? Palpy's reaction time is negative, but how negative it is still matters. If the absolute value is too low compared with Superman's top speed, Palpy cannot react in time.*

When not obstructed by the Veil Of The Dark Side(Which Palpatine will never be), and not hindered by Force Users(Because Clark has none), we've never seen an experienced warrior put down, of course.

Well, again. We have examples of minimally trained folks seeing things minutes beforehand, or hours with blur. Again, I see no reason, none whatsoever, that Palpatine could not have the sixty seconds required for him to erect a Force Wall, or toss Lightning into Clark.

If anyone has any evidence against, I welcome it. Until they present evidence, I am going to demand they shut their pie holes.

[The Silence and I]

I have a question, Nitram. What is the limit? Palpy's reaction time is negative, but how negative it is still matters. If the absolute value is too low compared with Superman's top speed, Palpy cannot react in time.*

When not obstructed by the Veil Of The Dark Side(Which Palpatine will never be), and not hindered by Force Users(Because Clark has none), we've never seen an experienced warrior put down, of course.

Well, again. We have examples of minimally trained folks seeing things minutes beforehand, or hours with blur. Again, I see no reason, none whatsoever, that Palpatine could not have the sixty seconds required for him to erect a Force Wall, or toss Lightning into Clark.

If anyone has any evidence against, I welcome it. Until they present evidence, I am going to demand they shut their pie holes.

While that is interesting as trivia, I tried to convey in the edit I made (which you may have missed) that I now believe the real limit is Palps' body speed. See my examples above.

Palps needs to move his hand to make a force wall, or shoot force lightning. If Sups can see that movement, he can splatter Palps' body over and over 'long' before Palps even gets a chance to finish his action(s). This imbalance in body speed kills Palps' precog advantage.

That assumes a tactical situation of course. If you suggest Palps could be ambushing Sups with hours of foreknowledge then things might play different, as Palps could set things up so he can shoot Sups walking around a corner or something, but that was not my assumption. Further, in a fair tactical situation Sups can likely dodge lightning, and Palps isn't winning if all he does is prevent Sups from harming him with a force wall (which may not survive Sups' direct hits, and wouldn't do much against his heat vision).

[Lord Iames Osari]

No it isn't. Actually as per HTTE it is heavily implied that a Force User can anchor his spirit to ANOTHER Force User.

I'm not familiar with that abbreviation. Since none of the movies fit, I'm assuming it's some part of EU that I haven't become familiar with. I wasn't going to invoke EU, but since you have, I will feel free to.

There's exactly zero[ accounts of Jedi anchoring their spirit to inanimate objects.

Wrong. Since EU is now a valid reference, I direct you to the EU novel Children of the Jedi, in which a Jedi is discoverd to have anchored herself to the computer system of an abandoned Imperial superweapon, the Eye of Palpatine.

[SirNitram]

That assumes a tactical situation of course. If you suggest Palps could be ambushing Sups with hours of foreknowledge then things might play different, as Palps could set things up so he can shoot Sups walking around a corner or something, but that was not my assumption. Further, in a fair tactical situation Sups can likely dodge lightning, and Palps isn't winning if all he does is prevent Sups from harming him with a force wall (which may not survive Sups' direct hits, and wouldn't do much against his heat vision).

Why would he be able to dodge? Palpatine will see the dodge before Superman even thinks of which direction to go. You seem to have a huge lump of solid steel where your brain should be on this issue. He knows the future. You can't dodge because he knows which way you're going to before you've decided.

[SirNitram]

No it isn't. Actually as per HTTE it is heavily implied that a Force User can anchor his spirit to ANOTHER Force User.

I'm not familiar with that abbreviation. Since none of the movies fit, I'm assuming it's some part of EU that I haven't become familiar with. I wasn't going to invoke EU, but since you have, I will feel free to.

Heir To The Empire, beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy.

There's exactly zero[ accounts of Jedi anchoring their spirit to inanimate objects.

Wrong. Since EU is now a valid reference, I direct you to the EU novel Children of the Jedi, in which a Jedi is discoverd to have anchored herself to the computer system of an abandoned Imperial superweapon, the Eye of Palpatine.

Indeed, the original incident of a Jedi anchoring himself is not to anyone. Qui-Gon goes to the afterlife and then comes back, as revealed by Yoda in Ep III.