Phoenix War III OOC / signup

[Ra]

Sweet. I also like how the other stormies were carrying riot shields.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Sweet. I also like how the other stormies were carrying riot shields.

But... it already happened: once aboard the Death Star (handling the Zergling riots), and the other was on Coruscant (handling the protester).

Anyway, Jon, shall we make the duel like Antonio Banderas vs Catherine Zeta-Jones in The Mask of Zorro?

And where's Dartzap, again?

[Destructionator XV]

For those of you keeping track of my fleet numbers, here is an update on what is left in the Milky Way (military warships and long range science ships only):

1 attack carrier
25 destroyers
17 battlecrusiers
6 science ships
3 general purpose cruisers

52 total.

[Destructionator XV]

Two other things I crammed in here:

"Among us is a madman: Kreshna and Detritus, his rabid dog.
Unprovoked, they came for us.
Ra and his bretheren shall be next.
Over Terra they mark words in their death machine.
Readying their plans to rob us of our soverignity.
Aye, you must follow my lead, help save yourself, help save us all."

Notice the first letters of each line. Where is Aurora? I want it.

Also the "Over Terra they mark words in their death machine" line. Terra has meaning. Mark has meaning. Count the words: 9. Death machine has meaning. I'm quite proud of that little line. Of course, in universe, he doesn't know of Madar's little antics, but he is asking for a Terran Mk. IX gatebuster to find its way onto that Death Star.



In my newest post, I also pointed out that raping a person's memories is so unethical it isn't funny. So if you want to lead into the torture thing you PMed me about, KAN, it can now be done. That will obviously lead to a "I'm getting back my men" situation, but the door is now open if you want to go with that plot.


And something you might also be noticing if you pay attention to the little things I drop, the mirror universe A'millians, all of them, are currently at 242, and so is Khardem. They are mostly there so if the rate of posting slows down again, I'll have something to do, but that is potential for me to use, so don't be surprised of I bring them up.

[Ra]

Last I checked, the Aurora was at some secret location. Since it was used by the whole Alliance, it was kept in a neutral location. In the disasterous PW II, this was on some uninhabited world, kept in a bunker thingy. So, I might indeed be able to get the thing out for us.

And also, I've implied from time to time that Madar only got "most of" our nuclear arsenal, rather than "all of". Meaning, she never found my Mk. IX's.

[Destructionator XV]

Last I checked, the Aurora was at some secret location. Since it was used by the whole Alliance, it was kept in a neutral location.

I assume everyone in character would know where this is, right? My plan with it is pretty much to use the Asgard engine on it on get back home and get the needed supplies to repair the transwarp conduit in a reasonable amount of time.

The A'millian galaxy is far, far away, but Asgard engine powered ships could make the trip in a jippy.

Naturally, the Imperial forces should realize this as a goal, and that can be another potential battle location as we race to get at it before the other guy.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Last I checked, the Aurora was at some secret location. Since it was used by the whole Alliance, it was kept in a neutral location.

I assume everyone in character would know where this is, right? My plan with it is pretty much to use the Asgard engine on it on get back home and get the needed supplies to repair the transwarp conduit in a reasonable amount of time.

The A'millian galaxy is far, far away, but Asgard engine powered ships could make the trip in a jippy.

Naturally, the Imperial forces should realize this as a goal, and that can be another potential battle location as we race to get at it before the other guy.

Um, why do we need the Asgard engine, while we can perfectly use our own hyperdrive?

[Destructionator XV]

Because every one else's engines aren't supposed to make intergalactic trips so easily. It is entirely inconsistent with the rest of the speeds seen.

EDIT: to expand on that, while I seem to be the only one maintaining consistency here, the speeds we see just don't add up to another galaxy. Let's take a look at some numbers.

The Milky Way Galaxy is about 150,000 light-years across. The nearest major galaxy, Andromeda, is over 2,000,000 light-years away. Note that it has never been established that the A'millian Star Empire is located in Andromeda, but lets use the number for example's sake anyway.

The biggest number Mike Wong determined for Imperial hyperdrives is 50 million times the speed of light. Important to note that that is the Millenum Falcon, a very fast ship on a very favourable route; the average number is a order of magnitude smaller. But, let's be generous anyway and use it.

Time = distance over average speed = 2M light years / 50Mc = 1 / 25 year = a little more than two weeks. For the trip between galaxies; that assumes you are on the right side already. If not, you must cross the galaxy too, which takes a little over a day at that obscene speed, which is best case scenario seen from the fastest ship in the movies. The trip between galaxies, again best case, is between two to two and a half weeks. The generally seen average speed, 3Mc, would take about 6 months to make the trip, and is probably the more realistic number given the general evidence seen in Star Wars.

Compared to Asgard hyperdrives which can do it in a matter of minutes (SG-1 4x01 "Small Victories").

The Asgard make the Empire look pathetic in speed and general capabilities.


Now, like I said, there has been very little consistency in speeds seen in PW, but still, if the trip was so easy, why even bother with a transwarp conduit? The best argument there would be cost; it spends less fuel, which is indeed one of the arguments I use for them in A'millian canon, but still, if there were no speed reason to have it, they would just pick up and leave, fuel costs be damned.

And also remember, A'millian speeds as seen here are faster than Star Wars speeds seen in the films. The Lightbringer made the trip from 242 to intercept Adam's shuttle in a short enough time so they hadn't received the outcome of the battle yet. That would be under two hours. A very, very conservative estimate based on that shows the light destroyer having a low limit maximum speed at over 100 million times the speed of light. The average speed for the small shuttle, as seen by its trip from I-1071 to Vulcan in less than a day, would calculate out to be closer to 3Mc, about the same as the average Star Wars speed seen in canon, and a reasonable number plot wise.

The best possible speed through the transwarp conduit is one day to make the trip - significantly faster, and a speed that wipes the floor with observed Star Wars speeds. I have to assume the Empire has something similar between their galaxy on the Milky Way to explain the speed discrepancy seen there. The other option is the travel times between the galaxies are in the realm of weeks or months, but these are 'edited' out of the plot as seen, because nothing happens and it would be boring to show the characters waiting for the ship to arrive.


But either way, Asgard ships are so much faster than even our best it isn't even funny. And more fuel efficient. That is why we want it, and why the Empire wouldn't want us to get it.

[Destructionator XV]

Also, I just brought up Star Wars canon there, something I don't like doing too much because I feel the game should be a separate entity (gods know the A'millians seen here aren't much like the canon A'millians, either first or the in progress second edition) for the sake of balance and plot, but speed numbers are one that should be.

First, the speeds seen in the respective canons are reasonable for a galaxy spanning struggle. Star Wars, the Goa'uld, and the A'millians can all cross the galaxy in reasonable time, but it is not so absurdly fast as to be an end all for everything. So it makes sense from a balance perspective and a plot one. Also, they are reasonably consistent with most what we have done, and the inconsistencies can be written off as creative editing if you will (the film was cut to make the trip go by faster on screen), or special situations, like a wormhole or a technological accelerator. Wormhole seems the most reasonable for connecting the Star Wars galaxy to the MW, and of course, the technological accelerator is a prominent plot point for connecting the A'millian galaxy.

So: it makes sense, it is plot convinent, and it is consistent with what we see here. Thus, I see no reason why the canon numbers should not be used.

Now, I don't like bringing up canon for most everything else though, since is doesn't work so well. The first edition A'millian canon (as opposed to the second edition, a new revision I am working on now), shows the ASE as being ass kicking. They can take on Orii toilet ships toe to toe and win. They are fast enough to make the galaxy trip in two weeks on their own power for the average ship. Put simply, they would have been about equal to the Empire on shields and firepower and closer to the Asgard in general technology and speed, possesing transporters, sensors and hologram units like we see them use, which are all way beyond Star Wars and Star Trek combined.

But before PW I, I decided to weaken them, a lot, and continued weakening them throughout a good chunk of PW I. Why? For balance at first and for plot later. What fun would it have been for the Borg and Goa'uld if they stood no chance? So I started by limiting my numbers and limiting my strength to 2 of our ships could take on one Borg cube and win. One v one though, the Borg would take it. My view of the Goa'uld was the opposite: it would take two of them to take one of us, but that was ok because I limited myself to 25 ships while the Goa'uld had far more, for balance's sake.

Then the Empire came out of no where with World Devastators and Death Stars, and the Borg had hundreds of cubes, killing all my 25 starters so I was forced to step up the size to 400 ships. But my strength seemed to get weaker and weaker, again for the plot's sake. I started playing the little guy backed into a corner, so the Guardian plot would be at least mildly believable, which still wasn't very in character. Khardem would not have been trusted, but the plot demanded it, so I said we were facing Guardian song troubles domestically and enemies abroad who could beat us, to force the plot upon the characters.

(And if you want to see what our canon revision looks like, wait for the original universe STGOD, coming soon to a forum near you. It is awesome, if I do say so myself.)

New plot trumped original canon. Balance and consistency has been my goal and in those goals, there is little room for original canon. However, for speed, the original canon, as I explained, makes sense in our universe, so I am willing to use it as a starting guideline. But for the above goals of balance and consistency, I am not going to use it as an authoritative source. If we want to override the canon, we can simply do so, as long as we are consistent. But, I really feel the speed makes way more sense than saying you are perfectly good enough. If that were true, again, why the transwarp conduit? Why specifically mention the Aurora has Asgard engines? Hell, why even build the Aurora in the first place if it is worthless compared to your standard stuff?

Asking why like that is part of being a good writer, and if you can't answer that, then there is something wrong with this plot, and we should work on fixing it. But once again, if we stick to the speeds as established in both real canon and PW canon, all those questions are answered already and make sense. Thus, I propose my limitations and reasonings.



Any disagreement here?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

WTF is "A'millan canon"? The only ASE I know is the ASE from Phoenix War.

[Destructionator XV]

That is because I haven't put very much of the first edition up on the Internet. The ASE 1st edition has existed in my mind and in my private notes for over 7 years now, and it evolved out of something else before that.

I have immense details on history, politics, and technology worked out (much of it I am expanding on even more or ditching and redoing in more detail for the Second edition). I have written some of it in this OOC thread. The rest exists among other stuff I have. Most of second edition will be on the Internet, though. I am working on writing it up now.

It is a massive original world of its own, complete with its own canon, just a canon that I don't share with very many people.

edit: But not that it matters anyway, since one of the points I am trying to make is canon is irrelevant: balance, plot, and consistency are what is important.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

That is because I haven't put very much of the first edition up on the Internet. The ASE 1st edition has existed in my mind and in my private notes for over 7 years now, and it evolved out of something else before that.

I have immense details on history, politics, and technology worked out (much of it I am expanding on even more or ditching and redoing in more detail for the Second edition). I have written some of it in this OOC thread. The rest exists among other stuff I have. Most of second edition will be on the Internet, though. I am working on writing it up now.

It is a massive original world of its own, complete with its own canon, just a canon that I don't share with very many people.

So what is the "second edition"? I got the impression that the 1st Edition is the super-powered A'millans you intended, while the 2nd Edition is the PW universe A'millan whose canonicity is established by the Phoenix War 1, am I correct?

Regardless, I'm just thinking: how about making the uber-powerful A'millan you mentioned is actually a future version of the A'millan Star Empire? So the Phoenix War is actually a 'prequel' to the super power A'millan that you have in mind? First, that would make it an easier 'retcon' to Phoenix War continuinty (easier explanation of technological disrepancy between two A'millan 'version'). Second, Lord Adam is an immortal, isn't he? So I guess it won't be difficult that he'll still live several thousand years in the future. That way, the entire Phoenix War story would be an aspect of the A'millan history, and that would give a nice touch of "...a long time ago, in a galaxy, far far away...."

Anyone remember the final episode of Babylon Five that shows the future version, ultra-advanced civilization of human (Minbari?) race? I'm thinking about it actually.

[Destructionator XV]

So what is the "second edition"?

Second edition is a reworking of technology, and all the societal changes that come with them. For one, I am changing from a softer sci-fi like Star Trek to a harder sci-fi, like nBSG. I am also adding more details that I previously glossed over.

The Phoenix War A'millians are a separate thing; I do not consider them canon in my universe (which is also why I am willing to go ahead and kill them over and over again). They are based on first edition, but is internal.

See, I classify the Phoenix War as being basically a fanfic. It needs to be internally consistant, but it isn't canon to me and the rest of my work. Second edition is a rework of my actual canon. It is turning out really well, too. As it is turning out, the technology wasn't very important in the first place; most stories were just the Lord and Lady in various situations and them doing their antics / discussions on what to do next.

So the Phoenix War is actually a 'prequel' to the super power A'millan that you have in mind?

Problem is they will probably won't survive PW III. PW III certainly has potential to be finished, but after that, I pretty much want to ditch continuity with the existing Phoenix War, and move into the original universe STGOD Ra and I have been discussing, which will be a 'fanfic' like thing based on my second edition harder sci-fi canon, just like PW is to the first edition.

The PW universe is getting old, IMO, and given what I see coming with the struggle with Darth Kreshna's empire, there isn't going to be much left of this universe by the time this plot is completed.

Second, Lord Adam is an immortal, isn't he?

Nope, he is an old man, but with a limited lifespan. In the PW, he is 1922 years old (or so, give or take a year). He takes care of himself, so will probably live to the upper limit natural age of the A'millians of about 2000 - 2010 years.

So he has under 100 left to go, assuming he is not killed in battle, which is a very real possibility.

His wife is about 1740 years old, and she too won't make it past 2000, excluding unnatural causes. Realsitically, even discounting the very real possibility of death in battle, she likely won't live long after Adam goes. He has been her only friend for a long time, and the two of them are entirely dependant on each other for emotional and mental stability. And the A'millian wedding vows end 'thy last breath shall also be my own', which is often considered to be a poetic figurative thing, but could very well be taken literally, too.

Their impending old age death is a factor in the real canon - they have no successor. What happens to the throne? A very real problem that they don't really want to face.

Anyway, if there is a PW IV set in the future, they won't be around, and with them, odds are the ASE dies too, even if it wasn't for the impending doom at the hands of BDZ, etc.

I'm thinking about it actually.

I am really looking forward to the original universe thing to replace PW. It has so much more potential, so much more to work on. PW has been nice, but it has to end some time, and by going to a new continuity, we can actually wrap PW up, and not alienate potental other players from joining the next game (however, the three of us have been doing these really well, so if we don't get other players, I can't say I would care)

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

So what is the "second edition"?

Second edition is a reworking of technology, and all the societal changes that come with them. For one, I am changing from a softer sci-fi like Star Trek to a harder sci-fi, like nBSG. I am also adding more details that I previously glossed over.

Hm. During the start of Phoenix War I, it seemed you heavily based them on Star Trek: warp drive, transwarp conduit, etc. IIRC there were a flagship that really looked like a Miranda-Class ship.

In PW II, it seems you're swaying to BSG; "Assault Carrier" (Battlestar) and such.

The Phoenix War A'millians are a separate thing; I do not consider them canon in my universe (which is also why I am willing to go ahead and kill them over and over again).

"Kill them over and over again" I thought the reason why you insisted the superlaser to be disarmed on the first place is because you really love your creation (the ASE, that is).

So the Phoenix War is actually a 'prequel' to the super power A'millan that you have in mind?

Problem is they will probably won't survive PW III.

=========================================

Anyway, if there is a PW IV set in the future, they won't be around, and with them, odds are the ASE dies too, even if it wasn't for the impending doom at the hands of BDZ, etc.

Um, not necessarily. Total destruction of the enemy is rarely the goal of a war (otherwise, nobody would need the infantry). Just take a look at Iraq and Afghanistan.

PW III certainly has potential to be finished, but after that, I pretty much want to ditch continuity with the existing Phoenix War, and move into the original universe STGOD Ra and I have been discussing, which will be a 'fanfic' like thing based on my second edition harder sci-fi canon, just like PW is to the first edition.

So whatever would happen in this new STGOD won't have a significant impact on the 'new version' of ASE either, am I correct?

Will there be a third edition following the new STGOD, just like a second edition following PW?

I am really looking forward to the original universe thing to replace PW. It has so much more potential, so much more to work on. PW has been nice, but it has to end some time, and by going to a new continuity, we can actually wrap PW up, and not alienate potental other players from joining the next game

Well actually we did not alienate other players from joining PW. The PW 1 had Robert, Ace, and even Josh. PW 2 originally had Narsil, DesertFly, and Allen. It's just that not all people are interested to follow through.

(however, the three of us have been doing these really well, so if we don't get other players, I can't say I would care)

Um, mind you, an STGOD with only THREE playes won't be that much interesting. An STGOD with only two players is kinda almost pointless, I guess (yes, it is still an STGOD, but still...)

[Ra]

Um, mind you, an STGOD with only THREE playes won't be that much interesting

Look in the mirror, Kresh. This game only has three players (right now), and it remains somewhat interesting.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Um, mind you, an STGOD with only THREE playes won't be that much interesting

Look in the mirror, Kresh. This game only has three players (right now), and it remains somewhat interesting.

Mind you, we're heading into a war. A war would be much more interesting if more factions are involved. Anyone remember the early days of PW1? And of course, in Deep Space 9, there were many factions involved as well. At least we need Dartzap and DesertFly to go back, I guess.

EDIT: oh and Jon, I'm still waiting for Madar.

[Destructionator XV]

Hm. During the start of Phoenix War I, it seemed you heavily based them on Star Trek: warp drive, transwarp conduit, etc. IIRC there were a flagship that really looked like a Miranda-Class ship.

Recall the Genator I was a Galactica class attack carrier as well. I take ideas I like from various shows and use them, discarding what I don't like.

Also, I take names a lot, but not so much characteristics. Obvious examples are the warp drive and transwarp conduit: Star Trek names, but nothing like their Star Trek counterparts. My warp drives are faster and can't do as much technobabble, also allowing for instant short range jumps (like nbsg, seen many times right from the beginning) and also are hard to blow up. My transwarp conduits require one at both ends to start and stop the process, Trek one's don't.

"Kill them over and over again" I thought the reason why you insisted the superlaser to be disarmed on the first place is because you really love your creation (the ASE, that is).

It is, but I am still willing to kill them off. PW I, I nearly destroyed my core worlds with the unicron thing. PW II, I killed my lead. PW III, I start a war with the Empire.

While I don't want to see them go, in or out of universe, I am willing to do it for the plot's sake.

Um, not necessarily. Total destruction of the enemy is rarely the goal of a war (otherwise, nobody would need the infantry).

Tell that to the guys with Death Stars and BDZs. Even if they don't do that, it is going to be bloody as hell.

So whatever would happen in this new STGOD won't have a significant impact on the 'new version' of ASE either, am I correct?

Nope. I might work out more details and characters that I will merge back into the canon, but I will be required to keep nothing. Like the Star Trek novels with relation to the show: the novels aren't canon, but sometimes the writers reference them anyway in canon.

Will there be a third edition following the new STGOD, just like a second edition following PW?

Very unlikely. The creation of my second edition canon is a response to me learning more about science and writing more than anything else. I expect it to be around for a long time, like first edition was.

Well actually we did not alienate other players from joining PW. The PW 1 had Robert, Ace, and even Josh. PW 2 originally had Narsil, DesertFly, and Allen. It's just that not all people are interested to follow through.

PW I you expect more: it started as a TGOD without any backstory; the barrier of entry was very low.

This one got a few others to come in, but they didn't stick around long. It is hard to get established as a newbie. There was no place for Narsil, his guys were marginalized from the beginning. DesertFly played very well, and who knows, he might still return (he might just be reall busy IRL, I don't know), but he still had the hard time of getting to know everyone and everything.

By breaking with this continuity and the name, it opens it up for everyone again.

Um, mind you, an STGOD with only THREE playes won't be that much interesting.

Look at PW. You, I, and Jon have been the main players in all three of these, and they are going pretty well. This one is still alive, with apparently no minor players even left.

I believe it was Frank Herbert's Dune which says the tripod is the most unstable of structures, and a political tripod leads to the most awesome tension, in his book is was the Landsraad of the Great Houses and the threat of their atomics, the Guild and its monopoly on space travel, and the Emperor and his Sardaukar. Here, we have three forces, but the balance is upset, so the little guys are lashing out to restore that balance, either by alliances or terrorism freedom fighting.

I think it is an interesting premise in itself, and we are doing all right. A tripod like Dune showed us would also be an interesting game to play, but it would be pretty different: the Houses, Emperor, and Guild are all part of the same thing, all interdependant on each other. As we stand right now, any one of our powers doesn't need the other at all, we just want the others to leave us alone, which makes more sense when they are separate nations.

An STGOD with only two players is kinda almost pointless, I guess (yes, it is still an STGOD, but still...)

I'm not so sure. Lots of games are great one on one, and if it has a good setting and good established rules, it could certainly work out. Though, I would prefer 3 or more.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I believe it was Frank Herbert's Dune which says the tripod is the most unstable of structures, and a political tripod leads to the most awesome tension, in his book is was the Landsraad of the Great Houses and the threat of their atomics, the Guild and its monopoly on space travel, and the Emperor and his Sardaukar. Here, we have three forces, but the balance is upset, so the little guys are lashing out to restore that balance, either by alliances or terrorism freedom fighting.

I think it is an interesting premise in itself, and we are doing all right. A tripod like Dune showed us would also be an interesting game to play, but it would be pretty different: the Houses, Emperor, and Guild are all part of the same thing, all interdependant on each other. As we stand right now, any one of our powers doesn't need the other at all, we just want the others to leave us alone, which makes more sense when they are separate nations.

Well I'm actually thinking about the Dominion War (Deep Space Nine). With more players, there could be more maneuvers (political and military alike) during the war.

In Dominion War, the players are the Federation, the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Star Empire, the Cardassian Union, and the Dominion (five players).

Now, first the Romulans and the Cardassians performed a covert bombardment on the Founder's homeworld (The Die Is Cast episode), and upon their failure, their government suddenly changed their allegience in a butt-saving maneuver: the Romulans declared neutrality, and the Cardassians joinde the Dominion, leaving the Feds and the Klingons fighting the Dominions.

Now imagine if there's only three party in the example above: Dominion, Romulans, and Cardassians. And then the Romulans declared neutrality, and the Cardassians joined the Dominion... and then, what's left? Suddenly the war is over because no faction left to fight against.

I'm not saying that the STGOD should imitate the plot of Dominion War (although a The Die Is Cast attempt on the Death Star would be interesting.....), but my point is that with more players, there will be more variations and unpredictability.

Well I do hope that Dartzap and DesertFly will join the incoming war, and Jon, since you've been playing multiple factions, could you have more factions getting involved (or at least concerned) with the war? The Asgard? The Vulcans? (although my suggestion could be a little bit overwhelming for ya! )

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Ghetto Edit:

Um, not necessarily. Total destruction of the enemy is rarely the goal of a war (otherwise, nobody would need the infantry).

Tell that to the guys with Death Stars and BDZs. Even if they don't do that, it is going to be bloody as hell.

The United States nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but they didn't obliterate the entire Japan, did they? Few of A'millan planets may be BDZed or DeathStared, but if we assume the Imperial Mandate act rationally like nations in the real world, I guess the total obliteration of the A'millan Star Empire won't be their goal. Unless, of course, you leave me with no choice.

This one got a few others to come in, but they didn't stick around long. It is hard to get established as a newbie. There was no place for Narsil, his guys were marginalized from the beginning. DesertFly played very well, and who knows, he might still return (he might just be reall busy IRL, I don't know), but he still had the hard time of getting to know everyone and everything.

By breaking with this continuity and the name, it opens it up for everyone again.

I'd just like to point out that it is not a guarantee. Anyone remember our urban combat, "Underworld-esque" STGOD, where Vampires and Wizards and Elves mingle around with mercenaries and secret agents? (remember "Kreshna Iceheart" the assassin? And Scottie's The Watchmen?) That was an interesting game, and quite many players were involved. Alas, it was short-lived.

[Destructionator XV]

Well I'm actually thinking about the Dominion War (Deep Space Nine). With more players, there could be more maneuvers (political and military alike) during the war.

Indeed. More is better, unless it gets too crowded and we are all waiting on everyone else to post, but we can do fine with fewer players.

Now, first the Romulans and the Cardassians performed a covert bombardment on the Founder's homeworld (The Die Is Cast episode), and upon their failure, their government suddenly changed their allegience in a butt-saving maneuver: the Romulans declared neutrality, and the Cardassians joinde the Dominion, leaving the Feds and the Klingons fighting the Dominions.

Don't forget the Founders turning the Federation and Klingons against each other (Way of the Warrior), and the Federation against the Federation (Paradise Lost). And the Bajorans were occupied for a short time (up to Sacrifice of Angels), and they had internal problems (prior to the introduction of the Dominion they had a split, see The Circle).

DS9 had so much potential going for it. Some of it they botched, some of it was done really well (like In the Pale Moonlight where Sisko and Garak assassinate a Romulan and frame the Dominion to bring the Romulans to their side).

Now imagine if there's only three party in the example above: Dominion, Romulans, and Cardassians. And then the Romulans declared neutrality, and the Cardassians joined the Dominion... and then, what's left? Suddenly the war is over because no faction left to fight against.

It is either game over; the story is complete, or the Cardies or Dominion get greedy and go after the Romulans anyway. At which point the Romulans probably would have been forced to bring in their WMDs to defend themselves, like France did toward Russia in the Cold War. Remember the Charles De Gaulle quote I adapted in character?

but my point is that with more players, there will be more variations and unpredictability.

True, it would be nice, unless we all trip over each other and wait on everyone to post. I agree with you, just saying we don't need more players to have a good game.

Well I do hope that Dartzap and DesertFly will join the incoming war, and Jon,

One thing that also is bad here is there is no balance of power. None. The Empire outguns and outnumbers all the rest of us, combined. With DS9, the Dominion had the potential to be the strongest, which is why protecting the wormhole was so important, and also led to the Cardassians joining them instead of crusing their Alpha Quadrent forces.

Everyone was about equal in DS9, which led to more goodness. Here is a graph of their power:

Code: Select all

Cardassians ===
   Dominion ====== ========= (split by wormhole)
 Federation =====
    Klingon ====
   Romulans ====

In PW, the power graph looks like this:

Code: Select all

   Empire =========================================== ====================================================================================== (split by Allen's move)
   Trolls ===================
  Goa'uld ==
A'millian = === (split by conduit)
     Zerg ==

(Though however the Trolls got so powerful is beyond me, but you said their ships have the power of ISDs)

It doesn't matter what factions we have, the winner is obvious. Politics are irrelevant, alliances irrelevant. 200 gigatons and 20,000 ISDs and a Death Star simply steamrolls everyone else, combined.

That is one of the other reasons why I want to get rid of this PW continuity: the Empire is obscene. In DS9, the Dominion was big enough to take everyone, but ship to ship they were about equal, and the wormhole was between the defenders and the rest of the Dominion's forces. In real life, Russia could have annihialated Britain or France, but not without massive loss of life from their nukes, and of course retaliation from the United States. The point is everyone at least had a chance on their own, even though there were two bigger powers (the US / USSR), so alliances popped up (NATO / Warsaw Pact), and of course WMDs popped up to try and ensure MAD (such as De Gaulle's Force de Frappe).

With the Empire here, the only possibility we have is De Gaulle's policy of 'we will kill 80 million Russians, even if they can kill 800 million Frenchmen, assuming we had 800 million French to be killed'. And even that doesn't work so well, since there are orders of magnitude difference.

[Destructionator XV]

The United States nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but they didn't obliterate the entire Japan, did they?

The difference is Japan surrendered. If they didn't, we would have kept nuking them until they did or there was nothing left.

Either way, Imperial Japan was no more. Same would happen here. If we aren't all dead, our government as we knew it would be gone. Surely dependant on the Empire for our capital, as they are dependant on us for cars and video games. ;-)

I'd just like to point out that it is not a guarantee.

It is not a guarentee, but the odds are better than without.

[Ra]

I'd just like to point out that it is not a guarantee. Anyone remember our urban combat, "Underworld-esque" STGOD, where Vampires and Wizards and Elves mingle around with mercenaries and secret agents? (remember "Kreshna Iceheart" the assassin? And Scottie's The Watchmen?) That was an interesting game, and quite many players were involved. Alas, it was short-lived.

Yes, I loved Maelstrom, and my two characters from it, the Ferenci couple. It had a lot of potential; it had tie-ins from RA2, Underworld, Blade, original stuff, it was cool.

It could have even expanded vastly; what if Selene had to fight BloodRayne (well, Narsil already knows the answer, but still)? What if Yuri had to face Marcus, the bat-dude from UWE? Or for that matter, what about Marcus or Viktor getting bitchslapped by Castlevania's Dracula? Ashame it didn't work out. I blame myself for letting it die.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The United States nuked Nagasaki and Hiroshima, but they didn't obliterate the entire Japan, did they?

The difference is Japan surrendered. If they didn't, we would have kept nuking them until they did or there was nothing left.

Either way, Imperial Japan was no more. Same would happen here. If we aren't all dead, our government as we knew it would be gone. Surely dependant on the Empire for our capital, as they are dependant on us for cars and video games. ;-)

Or Hentai.

However, such ending enables you to set the A'millan version 2 as the future version of the A'millan version 1. I'm not saying you should; just saying you could.

I'd just like to point out that it is not a guarantee.

It is not a guarentee, but the odds are better than without.

I actually doubt it. Don't anyone notice that there are only few ongoing STGOD these days? Except Phoenix War and the FSTGOD, what else? Are people getting fed up with STGOD or what?

Yes, I loved Maelstrom, and my two characters from it, the Ferenci couple. It had a lot of potential; it had tie-ins from RA2, Underworld, Blade, original stuff, it was cool.

It could have even expanded vastly; what if Selene had to fight BloodRayne (well, Narsil already knows the answer, but still)? What if Yuri had to face Marcus, the bat-dude from UWE? Or for that matter, what about Marcus or Viktor getting bitchslapped by Castlevania's Dracula? Ashame it didn't work out. I blame myself for letting it die.

Come on, it ain't your fault. It is everybody's fault (including myself) for not going on with the game.

Just wonder: can we revive it someday? It's an interesting game after all.

[Ra]

Just wonder: can we revive it someday? It's an interesting game after all.

I would love nothing better.

[Destructionator XV]

However, such ending enables you to set the A'millan version 2 as the future version of the A'millan version 1. I'm not saying you should; just saying you could.

Wouldn't quite work, for many reasons. Technobabble and history are the two big ones, it just wouldn't make sense.

I actually doubt it. Don't anyone notice that there are only few ongoing STGOD these days? Except Phoenix War and the FSTGOD, what else? Are people getting fed up with STGOD or what?

Well, they do take quite a bit of time. People just might have other things to do and don't have the time to devote to more than one or two games.

Also, this is a nitpicky thing, but I'm not sure Phoenix War should really be categorized as a STGOD. I see it more as a collaborative fanfic, since STGODs seem to have more structure and rules than we do; we just do whatever we want for a plot. We also step on each other's characters more often than other STGOD's I've seen, and have a different kind of interaction between characters.

I like this format, but I think it is different than what most other people think of when they say STGOD.



About Maelstrom, I had a harder time doing it, partially because I am not a big fantasy fan, and partially because I had no clue what I was doing in it. Taking existing characters, like Khan, is hard to play because you have his established characterization getting in your way. The setting felt somewhat bland, too. I think you either have to go big, like PW did, with a major focus on the strategic aspects with nations, etc, or small, like small teams of characters in one city, to work well for a game. Maelstrom was somewhere in the middle, we were small characters in a huge, but not very fleshed out setting. If we limited it to a few (probably original) characters for each player instead of factions (like Khan had) and one or two more detailed cities as the setting, I think that would have worked out far better.