Love them cuz they're pretty, or pretty cuz you love them?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 2:50 pm

If I hear one more woman go 'I'm not pretty enough!' 'I'm never going to be worthy of him!' or 'I can't ask him out, I'm so ugly!', I might just snap and conquer the Earth.

I doubt anyone here has the problem, but I'm gonna do the tirade anyways. Cause people need reminded.

Ladies, you're not as ugly/fat/plain/boring as you think you are. You have listened to Hollywood and magazines too long. We are real guys. This, sadly, means we are not going to save you from villains or spontaneously take trips to the Carribean. On the other hand, it means we're not expecting you to look like a woman who gets four hours of attention from a team of specialists to make her a feminine ideal.

You want the difference between a plain or pretty girl, and a drop-dead-gorgeous sex goddess who makes the guys beg for attention? Attitude. Presentation. It's nothing physical. The body has it's limits. But the right clothes, the right walk, the right glance.. Trust me, we go weak.

Ask Tev sometime. She's convinced she's not pretty. But let me tell you; when she hits the dancefloor at MarCon, when she dresses up for a fancy dinner or day at the theatre, or just when we're being romantic, she turns into a vision.

So please. For the sake of your platonic friends and the poor guys who are gazing at you dreamy eyed: Don't be so hard on yourselves. You're still a miracle and we're glad to have all of you.

Rant mode: Off.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:29 pm

Nitram wrote:I might just snap and conquer the Earth.

I thought you were already planning to do that

But in all seriousness:
I think the issue requires its own thread in the 'Morality' section. It's quite clearly a very fucking big problem and makes me, myself, feel rather angry that many pretty young women feel that they're inadequate as human beings, simply because of what appears in a fucking magazine. Ah, the beauty of modern media, and its 'positive' effects on humanity

. And meanwhile, my sister continues to watch America's/Australia's/Britain's Next Top Model... *shakes head* why?

For a moment, let's look at (Insert Country)'s Top Model... and think about it for a second; did some fucking network exec think to themselves "Oh, I know, 99% of women feel inadequate about themselves, let's broadcast a fashion show with supermodel-type women competing against each other as if only one of them is adequate... it's a brilliant idea!"

Fucking media, needs to be keelhauled.

Shark Bait · Post by **Shark Bait** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 3:44 pm

Narsil wrote:Fucking media, needs to be keelhauled.

I'm sorry I was going to hold my tongue but I can't. The media is not the problem its human nature we seem to have an inate desire to hold up some standard of beauty and say this is what beauty is. You could easily make the argument that that has been the basis for much of art throughout history, for example Greek sculptures of Aphrodite using concealing revealing design, Rubinâ€™s nudes, hell even Michelangeloâ€™s The David.

That being said yes I can agree with Nitram's origional post, I think on some level everyone is a bit insecure its just a question of how much you let it get to you.

Rukia · Post by **Rukia** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:45 pm

I'm guilty of everything that Nit has spoken off...

wanna talk about social conditioning? Ask me... I'm the worlds worst. Ask Allen and Scottie they'll tell ya in a heartbeat how difficult I am. B/c I'll tell you in a hearbeat how 'not pretty' I am.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:52 pm

Rukia wrote:I'm guilty of everything that Nit has spoken off...

wanna talk about social conditioning? Ask me... I'm the worlds worst. Ask Allen and Scottie they'll tell ya in a heartbeat how difficult I am. B/c I'll tell you in a hearbeat how 'not pretty' I am.

Pfffft. Pfffft, I say to you, ma'am!

The prom pictures you posted are the epitome of what I'm talking about: It's all attitude and presentation. You looked great.

And I've no reason to flirt or exagerrate, I'm the married guy.

Shark Bait · Post by **Shark Bait** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 10:58 pm

I have to agree that how you carry yourself has much to do with "beauty" though my perspective may be a bit tainted. I have to say that attitude has much to do with mate selection in humans probably has something to do with our social nature and the subtext of body language.

Rukia · Post by **Rukia** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:22 pm

SirNitram wrote:Pfffft. Pfffft, I say to you, ma'am!

The prom pictures you posted are the epitome of what I'm talking about: It's all attitude and presentation. You looked great.

And I've no reason to flirt or exagerrate, I'm the married guy.

Thank you. I really do appriciate the kind words. But, You have to realize that I took about two and half hours getting ready. On a normal day... I look like shit ran over. So I take a few good pics for a big occasion. People pass me on the street and don't look twice. Especially if I'm with my friends.. I turn invisable. Ask the guys, telling me I'm pretty is like talking to a wall. I don't compare to say... xBF or Caz... I just don't. I've come to accept that. *shrugs* Like I said, social conditioning, it's tamed my spirit.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:41 pm

Rukia wrote:Like I said, social conditioning, it's tamed my spirit.

It's bullshit, plain and simple. It may have wormed it's way into your head, it may have convinced you it's true, but it's a load of crap. You're invisible because you want to be. You are, as I said in the opening post, alot prettier than you beleive. You just need some confindence. You need to listen to those telling you you're beautiful.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:42 pm

Nitram, I hate to say it, but some people really are just unattractive. No amount of coddling will change that fact. Granted, there are many women who decry themselfs as ugly who truely aren't, but then again I've met a few who think they're the most beautiful thing ever who I wouldn't talk to before drinking enough alcohol to drown a dolphin in.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:42 am

The Cleric wrote:Nitram, I hate to say it, but some people really are just unattractive. No amount of coddling will change that fact. Granted, there are many women who decry themselfs as ugly who truely aren't, but then again I've met a few who think they're the most beautiful thing ever who I wouldn't talk to before drinking enough alcohol to drown a dolphin in.

Like that crazy fundie ladie on Trading Spouses that looked like she and Jabba the Hutt could be very very happy together?

Post by **Dark Silver** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:46 am

The Cleric wrote:Nitram, I hate to say it, but some people really are just unattractive. No amount of coddling will change that fact. Granted, there are many women who decry themselfs as ugly who truely aren't, but then again I've met a few who think they're the most beautiful thing ever who I wouldn't talk to before drinking enough alcohol to drown a dolphin in.

Yes, but what Nitram is talking about, Cleric, is those who are NOT but fucking ugly, but instead are rather pretty, hell, even beautiful, but because thier trying to compare themselves to super models and actresses who have professional makeup people, they think thier ugly as shit.

Rukia, is one such example, with horrid self esteem and a self-image which belies the reality we've seen.

Post by **B4UTRUST** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:05 am

Rukia wrote:I'm guilty of everything that Nit has spoken off...

wanna talk about social conditioning? Ask me... I'm the worlds worst. Ask Allen and Scottie they'll tell ya in a heartbeat how difficult I am. B/c I'll tell you in a hearbeat how 'not pretty' I am.

Yes dear, you are very frustrating. But I still insist with my plan that maybe if I tell you enough times you'll believe me and not think I'm insane or crazy. Well thats my hope at least.

But yes, a lot of guys and gals are like this. Myself included.

If we're not a calvin klein model or blond beach bum surfer boy in looks we tend to think we're not that attractive ourselves guys. It's not just girls.

But it is a problem...

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:02 am

I'll tell you in a hearbeat how 'not pretty' I am.

'Not pretty' my arse. You're absolutely beautiful, and don't let anyone tell you any different.

Hashava · Post by **Hashava** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:03 am

Shark Bait wrote:
I'm sorry I was going to hold my tongue but I can't. The media is not the problem its human nature we seem to have an inate desire to hold up some standard of beauty and say this is what beauty is. You could easily make the argument that that has been the basis for much of art throughout history, for example Greek sculptures of Aphrodite using concealing revealing design, Rubinâ€™s nudes, hell even Michelangeloâ€™s The David.

That being said yes I can agree with Nitram's origional post, I think on some level everyone is a bit insecure its just a question of how much you let it get to you.

The ideal woman in classical art was a healthy creature, with some belly and hips and everything.
What we see today in the media is sick, women that have a "guy-ish" body structure - small hip bones, thin pelvises, broad shoulders.
Real women don't look like that.
Real women need some fat if they want to get their period.

Everyone is insecure, but the media wants us to be more insecure.
Some people want to make money, you know

Shark Bait · Post by **Shark Bait** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:20 am

I was not saying the idea of beauty has not changed, hell Rubin's nudes were down right chunky and would (even by medical terms) be considered over weight. More classic Greek/Helenistic body types yes that is closer to healthy, but The David, hell its crazy dissproportional and impossible for any guy to look that way. The point was not to say what is and is not beautiful but to instead say that perhaps it is our nature to hold up and point to what people of the time think is beautiful.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:23 am

All I ask from the female body is the hourglass. That is, there should be a slight curve inwards between the boobs and rear. Which most women have. Boobs are also nice, and should be appreciated. Regularly.

LadyTevar · Post by **LadyTevar** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:04 am

I'm beginning to lean towards the Rubinesque, myself. I've never been thin, I've always been hippy with a small bust. I used to joke with my sis LadyJules/Devonie that she could have breast reduction surgery and I'd take what she lost.

I also had/have all the self-esteem issues that Rukia is complaining about... no boyfriends in high school, half the guys not even talking/looking at me.

Then I hit college, and found that there were guys out there who appreciated not just my looks, but my brain. In the three years between highschool and me 'settling down' with my ex-husband, I hand a doublehandful of lovers because I felt Pretty. (Scadian dress tends to do this, so did Devonie showing me how to acentuate my positives. We won't get into Devonie's positives)

Sometimes, I wonder if I'd have been as down on myself when I got into college if I'd had the internet and good friends outside my smalltown-life like Nit, B4, DS, and the rest of the guys telling me how pretty I really was.

No one can tell, can they...

vampykat · Post by **vampykat** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:18 am

I can understand where Rukia is coming from. Just because someone says you are good looking and if you can "clean up good" at times, it doesn't make a person feel particuarlly good about themselves.

I grew up being told I was stupid and ugly and no matter what anyone says, I believe it to this day.

Allen and I have discussed this before and he knows I can have a very very low self esteem.

When you see the women that men do get all googly eyed over, it can be very hard to ever picture a man going after yourself, knowing the way you feel about yourself.

Rukia · Post by **Rukia** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:31 pm

HA HA!

I'm not the only one!

*RRRRAAAAAZZZZZZZZ*

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:37 pm

Rukia wrote:HA HA!
I'm not the only one!
*RRRRAAAAAZZZZZZZZ*

Um-didn't her Ladyship show that you ain't, and didn't B4 show that us guys are by no means immune to it?

Rukia · Post by **Rukia** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:43 pm

Yea well

*rrrrrraaaaaazzzzzzzzzz*

LadyTevar · Post by **LadyTevar** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:22 pm

Young lady, what *have* I told you about sticking your tongue out?!

The Village Idiot · Post by **The Village Idiot** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:46 pm

LadyTevar wrote:Young lady, what *have* I told you about sticking your tongue out?!

put it to better use? *GRIN*

LadyTevar · Post by **LadyTevar** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:21 pm

The Village Idiot wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:Young lady, what *have* I told you about sticking your tongue out?!
put it to better use? *GRIN*

Good Boy!

*cyber-cookie*

Shark Bait · Post by **Shark Bait** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:22 pm

Damn it dont encourage him, I've been trying to make him socially acceptable for years.

LibriumArcana.Games

Love them cuz they're pretty, or pretty cuz you love them?

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