Shadowrun: The true sequel to Deus Ex?

[Hotfoot]

Trailer

I don't know, personally. Granted, cyberpunk is cyberpunk, but will they manage to make it into a deep, involving game, or will it be worse than Deus Ex 2?

Either way, I'm watching this one.

[B4UTRUST]

Not sure. I enjoyed the old games on the snes/genesis. But Deus Ex was a class all of its own. DX2 had a fuckload of potentital...but it was squandered by edios when they decided to release the exact same game for PC and console without any mods. The interface killed a lot of the game and there were just issues with the game as a whole, though I still enjoyed it fairly well.

If they made it like the first DX I would buy it most definatly.

[Something Awesome]

I've always been a fan of the Shadowrun universe, especially the earlier novels and the Genesis game, but never actually played the RPG. I'm going to have to keep an eye on this one.

[Hotfoot]

Well, so much for that. E3 just confirmed it's going to be multiplayer focused game. CTF and the like. Meh.

[B4UTRUST]

Fuck :(

now if they did it as a mmorpg that was actually an rpg then that would be fucking awesome.

[LadyTevar]

... ok... this would be interesting to see as an MMORPG except for one thing: The Decker.

Even in a dicegame, the decker wsn't really in the party half the time. The best deckers might not even be in the same zipcode as they slice into the system and make sure their buddies don't get caught on security camera.

I've sat for 2hrs as a decker did this thing, breaking into a system, bored outta my gourd because all the GMs attention was on him.

[Hotfoot]

Both R.Talsorian's Cyberpunk 203X (sequel to Cyberpunk 2020) and Wizkids Shadowrun 4th Edition drastically changed the hacking dynamics to account for wi-fi and corporate intranets, so that hackers need to be on site and involved in the action.

[B4UTRUST]

And by a show of hands, who here believes that either editions are worth a damn.

Show of hands please?

Anyone?

*cricket*

[Hotfoot]

I don't know that much about SR4ed, but SP203X is actually really good. The rule changes are pretty much all for the best, and if you can get beyond the crappy art, the setting is pretty cool too. Never mind that full support for 2020 is offered in the book.

So yes, I do think 203X is worth a damn.

[LadyTevar]

And by a show of hands, who here believes that either editions are worth a damn.

Show of hands please?

Anyone?

*cricket*

... I think the last one I saw was SR 3rd Ed.

[B4UTRUST]

I haven't heard too much either way for 203x so...

And I'm still a fanboy to the original 2020

[Hotfoot]

I haven't heard too much either way for 203x so...

And I'm still a fanboy to the original 2020

I'm part of the Demo team for R.Talsorian games, so I may be slightly biased, but it's a pretty damn good system. I got to playtest it last year at I-Con, and this year I ran an eight person two-team demo with the demo team lead at this year's I-Con.

Though I suppose this is a thread for the Kitchen table.

On another note, the demo lead and I are working on a merger of the two, the best parts of 2020 and 203X.

[frigidmagi]

Now hear this, now hear this.

Shadow III edition was great shit. Shadowrun IV edition sucks dead monkey balls.

That is all.

[Hotfoot]

Now hear this, now hear this.

Shadow III edition was great shit. Shadowrun IV edition sucks dead monkey balls.

That is all.

I still maintain that the changes to hacking are postive, all things considered. Removing the "let's wait four hours for the netrunner to do his thing" HAS to be positive, and slicing that into the 3rd Ed system can't help but improve it.

[frigidmagi]

Fuck the hacker shit, I don't a rats ass as we solved the problem with the simple rule of all Deckers are NPFUCKINGCs. This lets their bullshit happen offscreen and lets the rest of us get on with running. Why did my group pick this rule? Cause it's not fair to make 6 other people wait on you every fucking time.

No, 4th edition sucks cause it screwed everyone and anyone who liked to play a magical character (in the words of my younger brother after reading it damn my ass hurts). In 3rd edition it's already a struggle to keep up with the fucking cyberweenies. Given the kinda start 4th edition gives us? Damn near impossible. You might as well tell mages, shamens and adepts not to fucking play.

Magic is what seperates Shadowrun from being another retread of the distopia cyberpunk dream, it's the difference that catches everyone's attention. Hey you wanna play an orc with a gun? No fucking problem. A troll who can throw fireballs? Yeah, we got that! An Elf with razor blades in his fucking wrist? Pg 145 (not the actual page).

Now? A Mage is going to magically weaker than in 3rd, while also weaker in stats than he would have been in 3rd and left with less skill points than in 3rd. Course the metal kids get all brand new tools with which to wreck chaos, but somehow magic has gotten weaker despite the mana levels supposly going up in the Shadowrun world.

I say again 4th edition sucks dead monkey balls and most of us don't give a rats ass about the fancy wireless hack wank. Give Me Back My Magic Assholes!

[Cynical Cat]

That the decker has to be onsite to hack into a secure corporate network is suppossed to be a noteworthy fix? I've been doing that in my Shadowrun games since second edition.

For my opinions on magic nerfing see frigid's post.

[SirNitram]

I can only assume the time I played was 3rd ed; can't recall. I can only recall the story.

Being the Rigger was awesome, though. The Little Black Book was easily the most cool supplemental I've seen done in an in-universe style for a modern/future game(Sorry guys; Draconomicon's in-universe sections still dominate Fantasy).

And damn those bastards for denting Baby! DAMN THEM ALL TO THE FIRE OF... Wait, I nuked them. NM.

[B4UTRUST]

LBB was a 2nd ed sourcebook wasn't it?

And I know what you mean about the denting bit Nit... Chase never did forgive those damned bugs...

[Hotfoot]

Fuck the hacker shit, I don't a rats ass as we solved the problem with the simple rule of all Deckers are NPFUCKINGCs. This lets their bullshit happen offscreen and lets the rest of us get on with running. Why did my group pick this rule? Cause it's not fair to make 6 other people wait on you every fucking time.

That's my point. Under previous rules, the decker/netrunner is an entirely unviable character concept for players because of what it does to the game. I have to give them credit for attempting to fix that. The fact that they boned magic users is another, unrelated issue. Also, I don't really know that much about the new edition to comment on what the changes are.

Magic is what seperates Shadowrun from being another retread of the distopia cyberpunk dream, it's the difference that catches everyone's attention.

An interesting note, recently the creators of Shadowrun were in a panel with the creators of Cyberpunk 2020, and it turns out that the magic was added as a last ditch effort to distinguish itself from Cyberpunk, which released first. It's a nice twist, and it stuck, but it seems like it's been tacked on since day one. That Wizkids fucked it up isn't terribly surprising though. I think, however, that fixing it would simply be a case of patching the character creation system, wouldn't it?


I know that in CP203X the local hacking isn't the only thing that was done, but now hackers operate in real time like everyone else in the party. Now, to be honest, from that point, what happens in cyberspace changes drastically due to the new setting (which is very different from 2020), but is easily adaptable to the old 2020 setting.

[Josh]

I could live with making deckers have to be on-site, but the total genre shift to turn them into 'hackers', which is a term that's hardly even used -now- was fucking lame, as was getting rid of the decks.

As for the RTS game, can't comment on that. I wasn't a big fan of the old Cyberpunk, but I might check the newest version out.

[Cynical Cat]

As for the RTS game, can't comment on that. I wasn't a big fan of the old Cyberpunk, but I might check the newest version out.

I haven't seen the new version but by the mercilous gods of chaos the early version was a munchkin paradise.

[Hotfoot]

I could live with making deckers have to be on-site, but the total genre shift to turn them into 'hackers', which is a term that's hardly even used -now- was fucking lame, as was getting rid of the decks.

Uh, "Hackers" isn't used now? Pick up a newspaper recently? While it's never been an appropriate term, it's one that has been taken by the popular mind and is still in strong use today.

As for taking away the decks, didn't hear about that. Still haven't picked up SR4, haven't had the motivation.

As for the RTS game, can't comment on that. I wasn't a big fan of the old Cyberpunk, but I might check the newest version out.

The new version's setting is vastly different over the old version. 2020 was 80's style cyberpunk, and arguably the classic cyberpunk setting. It did the job well, as far as I'm concerned, and is still the yardstick by which I measure almost all cyberpunk. It's gritty, it's stylish, and it's fun.

203X is far more cinematic, drawing less from Gibson and more from Shirow. Imagine Bubblegum Crisis, Ghost in the Shell, and Appleseed, rather than Blade Runner. Compared to 2020, 203X is MUCH more high powered. In reality, 203X is more styled after Cybergeneration than 2020.

Cynical: Which version are you talking about? 2020 was hardly a munchkin's paradise. Cyber up too much, and you go cyber-psycho. Nanotech is prohibitively expensive, and the Eurosource stuff is rare as hell in the US. The most powerful weapons were hard to get ahold of, expensive, and if you were caught with them, C-SWAT would be on your ass in a New York Minute.

203X is a much higher-power setting, where supertech is everywhere and each Alt-Cult has their own special techs which they jealously guard. While I admit some Alt-Cults have some serious advantages in combat (Desnai and Cee-Metal), they do end up lacking elsewhere, and face a fair amount of suspicion and distrust by other Alt-Cults and the general population of MegaNight City.

[Cynical Cat]

I only played briefly, but from what I saw the ability to turn your character into a massively armoured cyber tank was easily obtainable while retaining humanity points and the Solo class ability (and don't get me started on having character classes) was munchkin paradise.

[Hotfoot]

I only played briefly, but from what I saw the ability to turn your character into a massively armoured cyber tank was easily obtainable while retaining humanity points and the Solo class ability (and don't get me started on having character classes) was munchkin paradise.

I honestly don't know how that's really that possible, unless the player cheesed out his starting empathy. A single cyberlimb costs 2d6 humanity. To simply replace all four will, on average, cost you 28 humanity (~3 Emp), and that's before you put on specialized hands and feet, not to mention other options.

Cowl, Faceplate, and torso plate will cost you, on average, 8d6, that's another 28 humanity (~3 Emp). Throw on armor for the limbs, that's another 14. Permenant +1 to speed is 3, Smartgun link is 2, the eyes to use the smartgun link are another 14 for the eyes, 2 for the smartgun scope, plus any other options you may want to throw on. Oh yeah, and 3 for the neuralware processor to run that stuff.

Total so far? 94 humanity. That's the AVERAGE, by the way, it could easily be DOUBLE that if you roll poorly. The maximum humanity anyone can start with is 100 (10 EMP). Assuming that's the case, then right now, this character has a whopping 0.6 Empathy left (counts as 1, barely). Dangerously close to cyberpsychosis, and that's without using all the options in your arms, legs, or eyes.

Many full conversions in the standard game require constant therapy. Which of course means that they're registered and can be picked up by the cops at any time for any reason.

By the way, the cash money cost for all this hardware? 10,000 for the limbs ALONE. Another 2,600 for the plating to the head and chest. 800 for the limb armor, 1,000 for the eyes, 400 for the scope, 500 for the booster, 1,000 for the neuralware, 100 for the smartgun link. Oh yeah, and 700 for standard feet and hands. Grand total for that is 16,200. The ONLY way you can possibly get that much money is to have a special ability score of 9 or more at start and roll high on how long you've been employed, or selling your soul to the mafia, government, or military.

So no, I'd have to say it's not easy to powergame in CP2020. Chances are what you saw were people abusing the system with house rules so they could cyber up and do what they want. It happens, but it's no more a fault of the system itself than a novice GM letting his group of level 2 heros slaughter an ancient red dragon and make off with his horde, including a strangely powerful ring of invisibility.

Second, the character classes were never a favorite part of mine, but to be fair, they're only "classes" in the way Morrowind and Oblivion have "classes", with the exception of each class getting a single special ability that sets them apart from the others. Whoop-dee-doo. It's nothing like D&D 3.X where classes are so fundamentally different that you can't have a stealthy character that hits well in combat.

The solo special ability was badass, but not insurmountable. All it did was give you a boost to initiative, not to-hits or damage. I've seen lowly techies lay out higher level Solos.

Meanwhile, CP 203X does away entirely with classes (not a huge leap, it was a skill based system anyway). Now special abilities are perks that you buy. So now anyone can pick up combat sense or charismatic leadership if they want to.