Cheating at the high school level

[Ace Pace]

Lately I've come across a series of tests in which there was pretty much blatent cheating, including today.

Some of the things I've come across is teamwork(I'm guilty of this one), reading your own notes during the test, notes inside the matirial, and up to outright blatently asking other people for answers.

The final to that was today, this test in programming is our last one before a series of finals. The teacher had to go home so a TA was watching over, now this TA is nice, helps people and all that, but this is all out of proportion. As part of her job assisting kids with problems, she also lets someone like me come over and help them answer questions. This is partially understandable.

What makes me scratch my head is people litterally whispering loudly with each other, teamworking on a class level all.



Now we all agree cheating on a Uni/Collage level is bad, due to it being relevent to actual jobs. But in cases like this, with BS subjects or even a serious one like this, is it really wrong to cheat, or alternatively to help others in the test?

I'll add my own opinion, I dispise cheating, but I will make use of it in BS subjects. I will also help other kids cheat if there is no danger to myself. However, such widespread cheating to me, is too much.

[Narsil]

With my view of what constitutes a BS Subject...

You needn't cheat because it is that far beneath your level that it's not really worth bothering with. Which is why I hate my current course so much, no less than four key skills lessons per week. We don't do anything but sit around in one of which, the class doesn't turn up to another, and the other lessons are AON (Compulsory) which is basically a glorified maths lesson (on a computer course where you have to have a workable qualification already) and the other is the last hour of another lesson, so we leave an hour early.

BS lessons such as the ones you're describing. I wouldn't cheat, there's skills in those which could prove useful when you least expect it. It's really a case of the way you learn, basically.

[Lindar]

Cheating at any level is not good.

If you can cheat at something like a test, you can cheat at other things. I've honestly *hand over heart* never cheated as far as i know, because i'm afraid to. If i was to get caught I'd be afraid as to what the repurcussions might be.

Call me a coward if you want, but i can't help it.

NOw as to the situation you're describing I'm not really sure what to think, since it seems that the teacher his/herself doesn't really seem to know about the situation (or if they do well that's a different story). If you were to possibly mention it, there might be the off chance that they might make you retake the test in a more..."locked down" testing area... but other than that i'm not really sure what to think.

[Robert Walper]

I define cheating as any means of answering or acquiring answers to questions that are outside the rules of the tested subject.

Cheating means the individual concerned is not truely familiar with the material at hand, and will fail in practical application of the knowledge. This can lead to harm solely to themselves, but also harm to others.

If the subject material is trivial, it's not that a big of a concern other than ethical behavior. But if the material is important, the behavior becomes a far more serious issue.

[B4UTRUST]

It's not cheating. It's superior tactics. Face it, in a cut-throat corporate environment like the one you'd most likely go into, while cheating is frowned upon, chances are your co-workers would lie, cheat, steal, kill and stab you in the back for that promotion or raise.

[Scottish Ninja]

Yeah, but as all teachers will say, cheating is only cheating yourself.

I suppose that's true to an extent; you should know the information well enough so that you don't have to cheat.

Knowing the answers beforehand, I think, would help you more in the world than having to cheat.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Now we all agree cheating on a Uni/Collage level is bad, due to it being relevent to actual jobs. But in cases like this, with BS subjects or even a serious one like this, is it really wrong to cheat, or alternatively to help others in the test?

Cheating is not really bad as long as you understand the subject matter. In fact, I did cheat in my certification exam despite I understand my field so well. See, there's no way in hell I (or any DBA) could ever memorize such trivial details; when it goes our job, we can always read those PDF reference manuals if we forgot what parameter should be changed.

Mind you, in actual jobs, almost everyone cheat, although it is a different kind of cheating. Ass-kissing is the name of cheat we usually do to superiors, backstabbing is the cheat we do to equals, while people on top usually do the testicle stomping to their underlings, and such.

[Robert Walper]

It's not cheating. It's superior tactics. Face it, in a cut-throat corporate environment like the one you'd most likely go into, while cheating is frowned upon, chances are your co-workers would lie, cheat, steal, kill and stab you in the back for that promotion or raise.

True to an extent, but in any situation where actual knowledge on a subject is necessary to complete an objective, you don't want a cheater in the field.

Take your job area for example B4U. Say in the field facing the enemy where your life and the life of your buddies is on the line...do you want someone by your side who cheated their way through training, or someone who actually does know what they're doing?

[Robert Walper]

Cheating is not really bad as long as you understand the subject matter. In fact, I did cheat in my certification exam despite I understand my field so well. See, there's no way in hell I (or any DBA) could ever memorize such trivial details; when it goes our job, we can always read those PDF reference manuals if we forgot what parameter should be changed.

Have to disagree there, KAN. It's one thing to not know every trivial detail. But if by definition the details are trivial, they should not be on a test, or at least not count towards much of your score.

As far as I'm concerned, any test should be asking the questions you should know the answers to. And if you don't know enough of them, you fail.

Mind you, in actual jobs, almost everyone cheat, although it is a different kind of cheating. Ass-kissing is the name of cheat we usually do to superiors, backstabbing is the cheat we do to equals, while people on top usually do the testicle stomping to their underlings, and such.

You're confusing cheating (falsifying knowledge) with brown-nosing, treachery and cruelty (having to do with attitude and behavior).

[Narsil]

You're confusing cheating (falsifying knowledge) with brown-nosing, treachery and cruelty (having to do with attitude and behavior).

Cheat: (or at least one defenition)
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.

Trickery and most other modern business practices are cheating.

[Robert Walper]

You're confusing cheating (falsifying knowledge) with brown-nosing, treachery and cruelty (having to do with attitude and behavior).

Cheat: (or at least one defenition)
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.

Trickery and most other modern business practices are cheating.

Since we're talking in the context of falsifying knowledge about subjects, thanks for the Red Herring.

[Narsil]

Since we're talking in the context of falsifying knowledge about subjects, thanks for the Red Herring.

Is there truly that much of a difference?

It's still dishonesty and trickery either way you look at it Walps.

[Robert Walper]

Since we're talking in the context of falsifying knowledge about subjects, thanks for the Red Herring.

Is there truly that much of a difference?

It's still dishonesty and trickery either way you look at it Walps.

We're talking in the context of cheating on tests, which is effectively a person lying about their knowledge on a personal level.

I'm not talking about business ethics or behavior. Clear enough?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Cheating is not really bad as long as you understand the subject matter. In fact, I did cheat in my certification exam despite I understand my field so well. See, there's no way in hell I (or any DBA) could ever memorize such trivial details; when it goes our job, we can always read those PDF reference manuals if we forgot what parameter should be changed.

Have to disagree there, KAN. It's one thing to not know every trivial detail. But if by definition the details are trivial, they should not be on a test, or at least not count towards much of your score.

The problem is that such trivial questions actually exist, even in professional certifications too. As for the uni, I don't know how things evolve today, but such things already existed during my college days.

I don't reccommend cheating, but during my days, some students (including me) compensated by re-studying the subject again after the exam. I know it sounds like ridiculous, because we should have done that before the exam, but some university students seems to have a bad sense of timing.

And of course, cheating is fun. *ducks*

As far as I'm concerned, any test should be asking the questions you should know the answers to. And if you don't know enough of them, you fail.

Mind you, in actual jobs, almost everyone cheat, although it is a different kind of cheating. Ass-kissing is the name of cheat we usually do to superiors, backstabbing is the cheat we do to equals, while people on top usually do the testicle stomping to their underlings, and such.

You're confusing cheating (falsifying knowledge) with brown-nosing, treachery and cruelty (having to do with attitude and behavior).

Hey, I said it is a different kind of 'cheating', didn't I?

[Robert Walper]

The problem is that such trivial questions actually exist, even in professional certifications too. As for the uni, I don't know how things evolve today, but such things already existed during my college days.

I never questioned the existence of such trivial questions. Only that their definition as trivial should make it obvious why they shouldn't be a hinderance to passing an exam or test.

I don't reccommend cheating, but during my days, some students (including me) compensated by re-studying the subject again after the exam. I know it sounds like ridiculous, because we should have done that before the exam, but some university students seems to have a bad sense of timing.

And of course, cheating is fun. *ducks*

I suppose it's a matter of degrees. If one is cheating to get a high scroe on trivial material, that's not such a big issue by definition. On the other hand, cheating to fake a knowledgable understanding of more necessary material is definitely a bad thing.

You're confusing cheating (falsifying knowledge) with brown-nosing, treachery and cruelty (having to do with attitude and behavior).

Hey, I said it is a different kind of 'cheating', didn't I?

Side tracking the thread, eh? *breaks out Moderator hammer of doom*

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I suppose it's a matter of degrees. If one is cheating to get a high scroe on trivial material, that's not such a big issue by definition. On the other hand, cheating to fake a knowledgable understanding of more necessary material is definitely a bad thing.

Yup. In a context of harming the cheaters themselves (due to the fact that they're less knowledgeable that the exam shows), it is a bad thing. Except, of course, if the cheater managed to re-cramming through the materials after the test; like I said before.

However, in the context of being unfair to people who do not cheat, it is a bad thing nonetheless. Not to mention if the cheater actually achieves higher score than those who don't cheat. And mind you, such cases actually happen.

Side tracking the thread, eh? *breaks out Moderator hammer of doom*

Mod power abuse! Robert is sexually abusing his mod power, with hammer, whip, and chains! Ace, cover your eyes; this is for mature audience only.


PS: feel free to move this spam part to Testing if we want to continue engaging in a rather weird discusion like whether a mod power can actually get pregnant or such.

[Ace Pace]

No more spam, this is an englighting discussion.

Quick note.

However, in the context of being unfair to people who do not cheat, it is a bad thing nonetheless. Not to mention if the cheater actually achieves higher score than those who don't cheat. And mind you, such cases actually happen.

This, has been, my pet annoyance of the past two weeks, in every single test where I've helped a friend, he's recieved 5-8 points more then me.