Death Star vs Unicron

[Comrade Tortoise]

he was coming out of a sun in the movie. Can see the pic in the link, I provided.

The amount of energy he absorbed while inside that sun would be but the smallest fraction of the DS blast.

[Ali Sama]

he was coming out of a sun in the movie. Can see the pic in the link, I provided.

So? The DS blast released as much energy as a yellow star does over the period of seven thousand years, except without that pesky waiting seven mileenia.

Do the Unicron fanboys grasp what an 'Appeal To Ignorance' is, and why it's a fallacy?

yes I do. Do you? Yeah I am sure you do. Same thing others use to say star trek cannot warp strafe etc.

do you know what an "appeal to authority" is?
Ds1 was never show to be able to attack anything smaller then a planet.
It also gets 1 shot.

btw. so you know the scale diffrence.



Also I am not debating this. I am just providing usefull info. If you need anything more tell me.
Ali

[SirNitram]

yes I do. Do you? Yeah I am sure you do. Same thing others use to say star trek cannot warp strafe etc.

It means that because something is not known, it cannot be simply declared superior. You work from observed capabilities.

do you know what an "appeal to authority" is?

Yes. It means that if I said 'Mike Wong said this!' it's invalid. I have not committed one. Accuse me again incorrectly, and I will stop being so polite.

Ds1 was never show to be able to attack anything smaller then a planet.
It also gets 1 shot.

Actually, it gets several; it was ready for a shot at Yavin 4 later the same day. It also has incredible accelerative force, as Comrade Tortoise showed. Finally, it was designed to hit ships; Rogue Planet clearly states this.

btw. so you know the scale diffrence.

So it's a huge lumbering target which must get in mandile range, while the DS can fire from multiple planetary diameters and get an easy hit.

Do you want to crunch numbers? You'll come to the same conclusion I already posted: Even if he's made of eka-lead, a metal so dense and able to handle so much energy it may not even be possible to exist(But we can derive it's capabilities anyway! Science rules.), he's toast.

Also I am not debating this. I am just providing usefull info. If you need anything more tell me.
Ali

Don't lie to my face. That is disrespectful, far more than me calling someone a fucking asshole. You are debating, and badly. Have the spine to admit it.

[Ali Sama]

good day sir. you just lost your help in the subject.

[Narsil]

Ali-Sama...

I don't know you very much, and I don't particularly like Nitram very much...

Now from what I can see, you have lied to his face, and ignored factual evidence, in order to wank a cartoon. I don't know jack shit about Unicron, but from the evidence provided, I'd say that it wins my vote.

[SirNitram]

good day sir. you just lost your help in the subject.

Hah! You weren't any help; you think a TransFan of my magnitude doesn't know Unicron back and forewards? Hell, I can tell you the differences in his power between the UK and US comic series!

You're just being a petulant child because you decided you could declare a position, try and prove it, but when challenged claim 'not to be debating'. This is clearly wrong to anyone reading the thread, and I do not appreciate dishonesty.

I welcome the day when you are more mature about your debating, but it's apparently not today. Ta.

[Ali Sama]

Ali-Sama...

I don't know you very much, and I don't particularly like Nitram very much...

Now from what I can see, you have lied to his face, and ignored factual evidence, in order to wank a cartoon. I don't know jack shit about Unicron, but from the evidence provided, I'd say that it wins my vote.

hmm. actually. I never said. My Opinion. Death star 1 woudl win if it hits first shot. if not then it might with tl along the hull.
but it's chances are lower.
Ds2 would definatly win. It can fire multiple shots without the same recharg time.
that is my opinion.
good day.
Ali

[SirNitram]

Ali-Sama...

I don't know you very much, and I don't particularly like Nitram very much...

Now from what I can see, you have lied to his face, and ignored factual evidence, in order to wank a cartoon. I don't know jack shit about Unicron, but from the evidence provided, I'd say that it wins my vote.

Unicron is powerful.. Within Transformers. Unfortunately, for all that transforming robots kick ass, they are objectively very low on the spectrum. Even Galvatron in the UK series, where he is wanked by the writers to hell and back, can be defeated by such mundanities as rockslides and such.

Unicron himself is mostly scary for the fact no matter how many times you obliterate his body, eventually he'll come back together. Given that the Transformers always fought attrition battles and used one-shot tricks for victory, this was bad. When your matchup is against something which can repeatedly acheive the same feat(The DS), it's not that scary, especially when it takes ages for Unicron to reconstitute himself.

[Narsil]

hmm. actually. I never said. My Opinion. Death star 1 woudl win if it hits first shot. if not then it might with tl along the hull.
but it's chances are lower.

Well, that's the only thing I disagree with Mike Wong on...

There's evidence against the Death Star I having a "one-shot-a-day" main weapon...

Listen to this sequence of events:

• Alderaan is destroyed
  Causes Obi-Wan to have headache
  Obi-Wan fights Vader later that day...
  Vader states, as the Death Star is on its way to Alderaan, "This will be a day long remembered, it has seen the end of Kenobi, it will soon see the end of the Rebellion.
  This indicates, instantly, that Yavin's destruction was set to happen on the same day as Alderaan's.
  So, the Death Star I has just as much chance of nailing Unicron regardless.

[Ali Sama]

good day sir. you just lost your help in the subject.

Hah! You weren't any help; you think a TransFan of my magnitude doesn't know Unicron back and forewards? Hell, I can tell you the differences in his power between the UK and US comic series!

You're just being a petulant child because you decided you could declare a position, try and prove it, but when challenged claim 'not to be debating'. This is clearly wrong to anyone reading the thread, and I do not appreciate dishonesty.

I welcome the day when you are more mature about your debating, but it's apparently not today. Ta.

what position did I take?
cool. well consdiering we are both in agreement. that is cool. I have no doubt as to your knowledge in tf.
ali

[Narsil]

Unicron himself is mostly scary for the fact no matter how many times you obliterate his body, eventually he'll come back together.

That's a staple of Anime and Cartoons in general though, it's to be expected.

Given that the Transformers always fought attrition battles and used one-shot tricks for victory, this was bad.

That might have been why I never liked transformers that much, although it's hard to remember since the last time I tried to watch the "Robots in Disguise" was a decade ago. One-shot tricks have never really been my thing... I prefer for the heroes to just blast the buggers and be done with it.

When your matchup is against something which can repeatedly acheive the same feat(The DS), it's not that scary, especially when it takes ages for Unicron to reconstitute himself.

Well, what if Unicron's entire body-mass itself was annihilated, leaving nothing left but the odd atom, which the Death Star seems more than capable of doing with combined turbolaser and superlaser fire.

[SirNitram]

Unicron himself is mostly scary for the fact no matter how many times you obliterate his body, eventually he'll come back together.

That's a staple of Anime and Cartoons in general though, it's to be expected.

I'd disagree, if only because my knowledge of cartoons and anime with permenant death is pretty wide.

Given that the Transformers always fought attrition battles and used one-shot tricks for victory, this was bad.

That might have been why I never liked transformers that much, although it's hard to remember since the last time I tried to watch the "Robots in Disguise" was a decade ago. One-shot tricks have never really been my thing... I prefer for the heroes to just blast the buggers and be done with it.

That's probably because apart from Armada, there's not been a Transformers, really, in a decade or so.

Armada was... Well, it grew up in it's second season, and I enjoyed it. But I really will never expected G1 fans to enjoy it.

When your matchup is against something which can repeatedly acheive the same feat(The DS), it's not that scary, especially when it takes ages for Unicron to reconstitute himself.

Well, what if Unicron's entire body-mass itself was annihilated, leaving nothing left but the odd atom, which the Death Star seems more than capable of doing with combined turbolaser and superlaser fire.

Annihilation is unlikely, but such catastrophic disruption that he can't drag himself back together? Or vaporization(Quite possible, if he's too massive to exceed the gravitational binding energy with the SL blast)? He'll be stuck fleeing into another rock as he did in the beginning of the universe. He almost definately hasn't lost the ability to, atom by atom, transform a bare, barren rock into a new Unicron body, but this is gut-wretchingly long, as you can guess(How many atoms in the Earth? Exactly.). It took millions of years the first time, and would likely take that long to repeat. In short, there wouldn't be an Empire by the time he got a second go, or the Empire would have gone on to eventually reach Culture/Xelee levels.

[B4UTRUST]

This will be my last post on this subject regardless of anything else. I've got some stuff to deal with at work involving the military and exercises so my online time to debate will be limited for the short-term future.

Issues #146-151 of Transformers details a lot of Unicron's past and shows the following in regard to Unicron:

1) He is capable of destroying large quantities of the universe as he did so in one of his epic battles with another god, Primus. He destroyed planets, stars, entire solar systems with use of his destructive powers. In one of the larger battles between the two that were discussed Primus actually became concerned that the sheer destruction that the two were doing battling each other would destroy the universe which he was the protector of.

2) He displayed the ability to shift his entire form into the astral plane. He is capable of affecting physical objects while inside of the astral and if so desired can exist on both planes at once and has done so.

3) He is capable of devouring stars of varying sizes and taking the entirety of the star into himself and converting it to energy. No, this does not result in a black hole or an explosion. He doesn't give any indication of injury or even what would amount to heart burn after doing so. Of course if you follow US origins he consumed an entire universe because he was hungry. That would include suns, moons, planets, black holes, asteroids, etc. Everything. Not a solar system, not a galaxy, a universe. But hey, what's that compared to picking off planets and moons one at a time? When the Death Star can wipe out a universe by itself it might win on who has the bigger destructive capabilities. Otherwise it doesn't even rank close.

And for the record, Unicron has consumed stars and such while bound to his physical prison, not just as an unbound god.

4) He is capable of taking control and using machinery and technology that is not connected to him and is foreign to him.

5) He is capable of seperating the mind and spirit of beings from their physical body, rendering them more or less unconcious and unable to move. He was shown to use this powers on beings other then transformers and on beings he had no prior contact with.

6) He is capable of precognition. The amount of time this covers is unknown but he has in other issues proven to have knowledge of events years, even centuries into the future as well as events that transpire in timeline potentials.

7) He is capable of altering and controlling time. This was proven by reaching forward and pulling into the past a Galvatron from over a century into the future of the current issue. He was also shown in subsequent issues to influence events in the future and manipulating multiple versions of reality along seperate timelines, bringing in multiple versions of Galvatron from multiple timelines. Issues 199-205 are good displays of this power where he is shown to be capable of manipulating and even taking control of Rodimus Prime, the then holder of the matrix, dispite that Rodimus was in another time and apparently another timeline entirely.

These are reasons the Death Star won't win:

1) He doesn't have to be in the physical realm to assault it. While he has the ability and power to bridge between astral space and physical space, the Death Star does not.

2) He could manipulate and control the gunners of the main gun rendering it a null point. If they gunners can't or wont fire it it can't attack him.

3) It's entirely possible that he could see what sort of power the Death Star was capable of long before he ever encountered it and would be well prepared to avoid the laser with his precog. He was also capable of using farsight to view events that were happening long distances away without being present.

4) He could, upon knowledge of it, destroy it in the past long before it could post a threat to him, rendering the entire battle over before it began. And if for some reason he couldn't do it "in person" so to speak he could simply have a minion do it for him. He was proven to be able to create life, install insane amounts of power into his creation and be able to move them around in time.

And regardless of the measurable output of the deathstar, there is no way to accurately state what sort of damage the death star would/could inflict on him. He's been attacked by weapons capable of destroying planets before and they didn't stop him. There is at least one instance that I can recall of a weapon being built with the sole purpose behind it to destroy him completely. It was built by two of the best minds on cybertron and even it failed to completely destroy him.

Aside from the massive character shield of the matrix being the only thing that can stop him(and so far in TF cannon, it more or less has been), the exact makeup of materials of Unicron is unknown and it is unknown in what way an energy blast like that would damage him. I'll easily grant that it would damage him and probably hurt him like nothing else short of Primus has. The weapon the constructicons designed for Galvatron to use against Unicron was probably the most damage dealt to his physical body outside of the matrix detonating inside of him. It didn't completely destroy him however.

Nitram holds that if destroyed it would take ages upon ages for Unicron to rebuild his body. Here's my question though: If he was trapped against his will into the binding physical form, why in the name of the Pits would he want to go and rebuild it for? If anything it probably limited his powers, not helped them. This was a being who devoured a universe whole and beat the Lord of the Light Gods, Primus. Unicron himself was a god. In my mind this is similar to God in the movie Dogma. He was trapped in the mortal body and unable to use a large portion, if any, of his divine powers. As soon as the mortal body died and he was free from its restraints all of his powers would be restored. So wouldn't destroying his mortal body be helping Unicron, not killing him? He could turn right around after his body was completely wiped out and no atom remained to constrain his essence and devour the death star for breakfast. He would be returned to unfettered goddom then and without a physical object to attack the death star would be rather useless. In every "return" of Unicron in the series there was also some part of him that survived the destruction, always something there to keep him tethered to his prison. It's easy to consider that the only reason he wanted his physical body rebuilt was that if he couldn't escape the prison at this point he could build it into something he could use to further his own cause regardless. It's hard to destroy a universe with just a disembodied head. It'd be far easier to do so with the rest of his body.

And Nitram, for a self proclaimed TF fan and a Unicron fan you state that Unicron fled into his rock? That's incorrect. He never fled. He was tricked and trapped by Primus when Primus shifted the field of battle into the astral and back into the physical trapping them both in the rocks they inhabitated. See Origin of Unicron for that one. Primus fled, not Unicron. It was the same in both UK and US comics. The only real difference in stories there was one held that Primus and Unicron were both gods and had always been so while the other held that Unicron was a god with power beyond measure who actually devoured an entire universe whole which sated his immense hunger. Sated, Unicron slept. Primus started out as a single solitary fragment that had escaped Unicron's devouring. Primus then rebuilt the universe around Unicron without waking him. When Unicron did wake however he simply resumed his feeding. Eventually Primus grew powerful enough to confront him, the battle seriously fucked up the sections of the universe in which they fought and Primus shifted to astral then to physical trapping them both in the planetoids.

In both cases, Nitram, it was Primus that fled, not Unicron. In both cases, Primus got his ass handed to him. Also the exact time taken for Unicron to manipulate his form on his own is unknown and is speculative at best. By directing others to do it, however, it didn't take the Junkions to damned long to do this once he enslaved them.

But, as I said, this is my last post on the subject. So gentlemen, it's been a plesure but I must drop the debate. If you feel this entitles you to an automatic win, feel free to claim as such if that's your wish. I however, admit no defeat on the subject at hand and still hold that Unicron would win.

[Comrade Tortoise]

1) He is capable of destroying large quantities of the universe as he did so in one of his epic battles with another god, Primus. He destroyed planets, stars, entire solar systems with use of his destructive powers. In one of the larger battles between the two that were discussed Primus actually became concerned that the sheer destruction that the two were doing battling each other would destroy the universe which he was the protector of.

By discussed, do you mean shown? Because frankly, the emorie has the ability to do all of that. And the shields on the second death-star once complete, could have shrugged off the destruction of a solar system.

2) He displayed the ability to shift his entire form into the astral plane. He is capable of affecting physical objects while inside of the astral and if so desired can exist on both planes at once and has done so.

And he still has to move in the astral plane, and he requires some sort of mechanism for affecting things while in astral.

(shit, at this rate, i could put Karsus up against him... now that would be a fun match)

3) He is capable of devouring stars of varying sizes and taking the entirety of the star into himself and converting it to energy. No, this does not result in a black hole or an explosion. He doesn't give any indication of injury or even what would amount to heart burn after doing so. Of course if you follow US origins he consumed an entire universe because he was hungry. That would include suns, moons, planets, black holes, asteroids, etc. Everything. Not a solar system, not a galaxy, a universe. But hey, what's that compared to picking off planets and moons one at a time? When the Death Star can wipe out a universe by itself it might win on who has the bigger destructive capabilities. Otherwise it doesn't even rank close.

I am going to ask one question and only one question. Are these comics cannon?

That should be all the info I need.

[The Cleric]

btw. so you know the scale diffrence.

That website grossly underestimates the size of the DS II. As in, it shows it at 1/5th of it's true diameter.

[Narsil]

In fact, it also shows the DSI at about 60% of its actual diameter...

It's, by ILM Background information, 220km in diameter... not 120km or 160km