WEREWOLF: When will you Rage

[frigidmagi]

Oh man I don't know where to start, the mangled history that leaves whole chunks out? The fucked up geography? The misunderstanding of how the roman machine worked? It's this perfect ball of wrecked. Plus you forgot to mention spicio's dad.

[Josh]

Dude, do you really want Paul going into deeper detail?

He's an oral historian! Facts are mutable in favor of the moral!

[Josh]

Also, writing that really made me want to reinstall Medieval:TW and shoot the shit out of some Mongol cannon elephants.

[General Havoc]

...

Must... not... read... awful... history...

*Dies*

[LadyTevar]

Ok, before we start playing, some things need worked out.

Those who came back from my last game? You're now a genuine Pack, having completed the quest to find and return the Mammoth's Bone to the Garou Nation. Unfortunately, you didn't get to to KEEP the Bone, it was determined to be too powerful an artifact to be in the hands of young warriors.

As a Pack, you have 3 choices for a Totem:



+Raven
Raven is perhaps the cleverest bird. He likes to play, baiting wolves and then flying out of range when they lunge for him. Raven is wise, for he feeds without hunting, by following wolves and picking over their kills. If he finds an animal dead in the snow, he summons the wolf to tear open the carcass for him. For time out of mind Raven has been companion to the wolf, finding his food and feasting with the hunters, teaching him wisdom through his games. (After all, who wants to look foolish by trying to catch the uncatchable bird?) Raven is also a totem of wealth, making sure the wolves want for nothing, although he himself is always hungry.
Traits: Raven grants his packs three extra dice in Survival, one in Subterfuge and one in Enigmas. Each pack member gains one Wisdom point. Wereravens are sympathetic to Raven’s Garou followers.
Ban: Raven expects his Children to carry no wealth, instead trusting him to provide.

+Weasel
Some homids are surprised to learn Weasel is a totem of War, expecting her to be a Totem of Cunning, instead. And whilst Weasel is cunning indeed, se is no mere trickster, but a sneaky, dexterous and relentless warrior. Like Flea, Weasel favors quick strikes and surprise above sheer muscle. Unlike Flea, she will never back down until a foe is destroyed. This attitude has made her popular among many young Shadow Lord packs.
Traits: Weasel gives one point of Dexterity and an additional die to Dodge pools to each of her children, and they all gain an extra die of damage on bite attacks as well.
Ban: Weasel packs must never show fear.

+Mammoth
Mammoth is a powerful spirit whose children no longer walk the earth. This giant only exists in the Umbra. Mammoth symbolizes awesome power coupled with the ability to use that power wisely. Mammoth teaches his adopted children to exercise their might wisely and conservatively. Even when punishment is justified, for example, Mammoth frowns upon any more (or less) punishment than necessary. He is most popular among the Get of Fenris, Children of Gaia and especially the Red Talons. Ancient humans once hunted the mammoth, which, like the bison, provided food and clothing for many individuals. Mammoth’s bones were sometimes used in the building of shelters for early peoples.
Traits: Each of Mammoth’s children gains Enigmas +2; the pack gains two dice of Strength. Once per season, his children can use the Gift: Summon the Great Beast, calling a mammoth to appear.
Ban: Children of Mammoth must never be bullies and must avoid the temptation to seek power for its own sake.

[LadyTevar]

Now, if you guys can find and agree on another totem no Grandfather Thunder, sorry, I've no problem with you taking it instead. However, I *will* expect you all to RP the Ban.

[frigidmagi]

He's an oral historian! Facts are mutable in favor of the moral!

*sniffs disdainfully* Some bard you are, you even fucked up the moral! :P

Now, if you guys can find and agree on another totem no Grandfather Thunder, sorry, I've no problem with you taking it instead. However, I *will* expect you all to RP the Ban.

Hey guys! GUYS! I got a crazy idea here... Pick the Mammoth!

Do it!

[Hotfoot]

Grandfather Thunder is busy helping out a Virtual Adept. :P

[rhoenix]

Mammoth or Weasel would be my votes, but I think we would still have to ask them first.

[Cynical Cat]

Why can't we choose our own totem?

To clarify, these are terrible choices for the pack.

Raven's ban will fuck both Alexander and Sophie.

Mammoth's ban fucks Alexander both for the power seeking and by limiting his ability to get his way via intimidation which includes Tribal Gifts and abilities he's already paid for.

Weasel is pure combat which means its great for Alexander but not so much for anyone else.

These are bad totems for our pack. We needs totems which we can all agree to take and benefit from, not one that benefits half the pack while harming the other half.

We need the freedom to choose our Totem so no one gets fucked over.

AND WHY NOT THUNDER?

Seriously, he's a great totem and thunder is everywhere. His ban is reasonably easy to keep and his benefits are broad (Free Willpower points, what's not to love?) allowing a wide range of characters to benefit fully from his patronage.

[SirNitram]

Possibly because he is easy to please and powerful to be in good with.

[General Havoc]

I'm not averse to knocking out overpowered Totems, but it's true that Raven (and Weasel, to be honest) really would mess Sophie up. Carrying wealth can be interpreted fairly broadly, especially as she has access to bank accounts via her smartphone. Weasel's powerful and all, but never showing fear is... worrisome. And as to Mammoth, don't get me wrong, Strength and Enigmas never goes awry. But Sophie's gonna have some... concerns about a totem that's primarily Red Talon-focused, given her own tribe and background.

[LadyTevar]

Why not Grandfather Thunder? Allow me to list the reasons:
1. Thunder watches out first for his Shadowlords. What would he think of the REST of this mixed-Tribe pack?
2. Very few people will trust Thunder's Children. Think of all Alexander had to do just to get the Appalachian Werewolves not to look at him sideways. There's still a lot of suspicion, why cause more?
3. BAN: Children of Thunder usually do not tell the truth to those they do not respect. They never respect those whom they dominate. I think I need say more than that.
4. Shadow Lords will want to know what packs of Grandfather Thunder are doing at all times. Now, I don't see where you bought off a certain problem you had, Alexander, but do you really want someone knowing exactly where you (and a certain fetish) are at all times?

So... No, Grandfather Thunder looked you over through his StormCrow's eyes, and it flew away cackling in laughter that you had the balls to even ask.


NOW: Ya'll do have a point about the other options I put up there. I was trying to find something that would be found in Appalachia or based on the (mis)Adventures you'd gone through. What do you guys have in mind? What do you find that would work for ALL of you.

[rhoenix]

Just to throw this out there (Theurge - what're you going to do, right?) - we wouldn't necessarily be limited to something found in Appalachia. Totems related to the Appalachia area would be easier to find, sure, but the Umbra goes everywhere.

Why not have it be one of the first quests we do once the game starts? We'd go into the Umbra together as a pack, and look at what's available.

After leafing through the 20th edition, here are some ones I think that would be within our reach at this point. If I missed one or miscounted one, by all means post away.

- Rat (War Totem, p.374. Cost:5, -1 to diff. for biting, -1 to diff. for stealth/quiet; grants a collective pool of 5 willpower per story for the pack, but we can't kill vermin.)
- Chimera (shut up, it's good. Wisdom Totem, p.375. Cost:7, -2 to diff. to solve enigmas, 2 points Wisdom renown, can roll Gnosis (diff. 7) to disguise ourselves as something else while in the Umbra. We're required to "seek enlightenment," but Chimera is mercifully vague as to how.)
- Owl (Wisdom Totem, p.375-376. Cost:5, allows pack to fly while in the Umbra, -2 to diff. for stealth/silence, +2 points of Wisdom renown, but we have to leave rats hogtied in the forest for Owl.)
- Coyote (Cunning Totem, p.376. Cost:7, -1 from all awards to Wisdom renown (which would hurt Sees-Faces most), but gains 3 dots in Stealth, 3 dots in Streetwise, 1 dot in Subterfuge, and 1 dot of Survival. No pack ban.)


Of all the ones shown in the book, I'd honestly lean toward Owl or Chimera the most, if we can't have Grandfather Thunder. If Chimera would have the same problems as Grandfather Thunder would have (Chimera being the Stargazer Clan Totem, after all), then we'll go from there.

[Cynical Cat]

Why not Grandfather Thunder? Allow me to list the reasons:
1. Thunder watches out first for his Shadowlords. What would he think of the REST of this mixed-Tribe pack?

Thunder isn't an exclusively Shadow Lord Totem so this isn't a problem.

2. [Very few people will trust Thunder's Children. Think of all Alexander had to do just to get the Appalachian Werewolves not to look at him sideways. There's still a lot of suspicion, why cause more?

Some werewolves will think that, but lots of werewolves think that anyway. If I'm doing the time, might as well do the crime.

3. BAN: Children of Thunder usually do not tell the truth to those they do not respect. They never respect those whom they dominate. I think I need say more than that.

That's not the Ban. From 20th anniversary edition: Thunder's Children must not accord their peer and their rivals more respect than those werewolves have earned with their actions. Sycophancy goes against Thunder's nature.

4. Shadow Lords will want to know what packs of Grandfather Thunder are doing at all times. Now, I don't see where you bought off a certain problem you had, Alexander, but do you really want someone knowing exactly where you (and a certain fetish) are at all times?

This is a problem, but not a reason not to do it. Wanting to know and knowing are two different things.

So no, none of that is sufficient reason to arbitrary ban Grandfather Thunder.

As for being "over powered" Grandfather Totem costs more than most other totems and several other totems provide similar benefits. I'm cool with going with another Totem, I'm not at all cool with it being banned.

[LadyTevar]

You're right, I was looking at an older version of Thunder's Ban. Mea culpa.

I am still interested in seeing what other options you guys can come up with, because I was going to allow it *without* anyone needing to pay the Background Cost. I was going to assume it was handled during the downtime. I've got most of the stats for a 'basic' Jaggling, the final stats will depend on whether it's Respect, War, Cunning, or Wisdom (ie: more Rage for a War, more Will for a Wisdom, etc.)

[SirNitram]

Can we skip ahead of the whole Thunder thing? Arguing with the GM is a good way to cause Rocks Fall.

Of the canon ones, I like Wasp. Mindspeak for the pack/sept, unarmed beatdowns, and the ban is about singing. SINGING AS WE WORK. Tell me that wouldn't be hilarious.

[General Havoc]

Singing?

[SirNitram]

Singing?

Yes. Nowhere does it say it has to be on-key, tasteful, or anything beyond singing.

[General Havoc]

Well while we're deciding this, I had a question about a Fetish shift.

There's a description of a Glasswalker fetish in the 20th anniversary book that is basically an iPad which you can use to "record" a spirit ritual of some sort (even someone else's), which causes the ritual to fizzle without effect. However, any time you want later, you can have the iPad "play back" the ritual in question, which causes it to go off right then and there. I have to look over the details again, but I was considering seeing if it's all right for me to change my fetish to it.

I haven't decided finally yet, but still thought I'd check.

[Josh]

Just to throw this out there (Theurge - what're you going to do, right?) - we wouldn't necessarily be limited to something found in Appalachia. Totems related to the Appalachia area would be easier to find, sure, but the Umbra goes everywhere.

Why not have it be one of the first quests we do once the game starts? We'd go into the Umbra together as a pack, and look at what's available.

After leafing through the 20th edition, here are some ones I think that would be within our reach at this point. If I missed one or miscounted one, by all means post away.

- Rat (War Totem, p.374. Cost:5, -1 to diff. for biting, -1 to diff. for stealth/quiet; grants a collective pool of 5 willpower per story for the pack, but we can't kill vermin.)
- Chimera (shut up, it's good. Wisdom Totem, p.375. Cost:7, -2 to diff. to solve enigmas, 2 points Wisdom renown, can roll Gnosis (diff. 7) to disguise ourselves as something else while in the Umbra. We're required to "seek enlightenment," but Chimera is mercifully vague as to how.)
- Owl (Wisdom Totem, p.375-376. Cost:5, allows pack to fly while in the Umbra, -2 to diff. for stealth/silence, +2 points of Wisdom renown, but we have to leave rats hogtied in the forest for Owl.)
- Coyote (Cunning Totem, p.376. Cost:7, -1 from all awards to Wisdom renown (which would hurt Sees-Faces most), but gains 3 dots in Stealth, 3 dots in Streetwise, 1 dot in Subterfuge, and 1 dot of Survival. No pack ban.)


Of all the ones shown in the book, I'd honestly lean toward Owl or Chimera the most, if we can't have Grandfather Thunder. If Chimera would have the same problems as Grandfather Thunder would have (Chimera being the Stargazer Clan Totem, after all), then we'll go from there.

The problem with the Rat God and Owl is that we're running with both a Silent Strider and a Gnawer in the pack, which makes the totem relations tricky.

Does Coyote's bennies add to pre-existing stats or just substitute? Paul's running pretty heavy on Stealth, Streetwise, and Subterfuge already, adding three dots here and a dot there would make him into Super-Ninja-who-lies-like-Politician.

[frigidmagi]

Guys, you're running a very varied pack and all of you have different strengths and weaknesses.

So it's time to ask, what do you guys need?

[LadyTevar]

Thank you Frigid! Thats what I'm trying to drive them to think about. :)

[Cynical Cat]

Does Coyote's bennies add to pre-existing stats or just substitute? Paul's running pretty heavy on Stealth, Streetwise, and Subterfuge already, adding three dots here and a dot there would make him into Super-Ninja-who-lies-like-Politician.

Coyote's traits are pack traits, which means that those dots are added but only to one character's stats at a time. The pack can switch who gets the benefits between rounds, but only one Garou at a time gets them. As what we want/need this is why I like Totems of Respect like Grandfather Thunder. Everyone can make good use of Willpower points. Rat, which has been mentioned, is also good for that. We need to step the fuck away from Totems that are only good for one or two characters and burn half of the rest of the pack.


This isn't something we should be deciding now. I like free stuff and all but this is something I feel our characters need to RP and settle in game.

[Josh]

Well just to give an idea of where Paul goes (I didn't post his sheet for various mysterious mystery reasons) he leans toward combat support, lies, sneaky-sneak, and that sort of thing. Smooth Operator plays in the background as magical diegetic music wherever he goes.