Star Trek: The Quadratic War

[frigidmagi]

The Federation loudly proclaims to have no money, how the fuck could they be on a budget?

[Lys]

The Federation demonstrably has energy and material scarcity, which implies resource rationing, which implies accounting, which implies a budget.

[Josh]

Yeah, Roddenberry's commietopia falls apart if you look at it closely in various areas.

One of the ghostwritten Shatner novels did actually go into how they were reaching the point with nanobot construction where they did essentially not have significant labor investment in the construction of Sovereign class vessels. Just give the bots some rocks to feed on and solar energy for juice and voila, battleship.

[Lys]

Well, the thing is, budgets do not imply money. What they do imply, once they reach a sufficient level of complexity, is a standard unit of account. In general, units of account tend to lend themselves well to also being stores of value and standards of deferred payment, while tokens representing them are useful as mediums of exchange, which taken together makes up the definition of what money is. That is how money was invented, it started as a unit of account, and then progressed from there.

However, it entirely possible to have a unit of account that is not a standard of deferred payment and therefore not money, and it's possible the Federation has done this. More likely they simply do not issue currency, meaning that money is only used within their own internal administration. That would mean the Federation not having money is strictly false, but from the layman's point of view there's no practical distinction between no money and no currency. That means the characters in Star Trek are wrong but not lying when they get on a soap box about the glories of their moneyless society.

Such an arrangement would have the unfortunate effect of making their economy very inefficient, not necessarily disastrously so, but nevertheless far below what it could be. Fortunately for the Federation, this is not a huge disadvantage within the Alpha Quadrant. I mean look at the competition! The other great powers are a militaristic feudal aristocracy, an aristocratic police state, and a regular police state, not exactly societies that are going to be surging ahead of the communists.

[White Haven]

There's also the possibility that the Federation is close enough to being fully post-scarcity for resources only to really be a serious concern on a megaproject level (starships, colonies, etcetera), while being effectively post-scarcity for the level of resource-consumption that any random yahoo manages under normal circumstances. That obviously could only apply to locations where they have full infrastructure set up, hence why we never saw it on Deep Space Nine, on some shithole station in the back end of beyond, or on Voyager, on some shithole script in the back end of beyond.

[Cynical Cat]

They never really put a lot of effort and thought into how the economy works. It's clear that in some areas that they aren't post scarcity (dilithium and latinumn for example). It's also clear that they have some ridiculously powerful labor saving technologies from computers to robots to transporters to replicators. It's possible by essentially directly subsidizing the requirements for every day life for several generations that the societal impact has pushed whatever medium of exchange that theoretically exists even further to the sidelines for every day people. Their society could be essentially moneyless for ninety-eight percent of everyday living and therefore effectively moneyless as far as most people are concerned. Unlike soviet communism, the Federation loves really smart computers and simply directly supporting public works and citizens would be far easier and more efficient than having layers of bureaucracy evaluating, measuring, deciding, etcetera.

[General Havoc]

Of course all of the above requires a massive, complex, post-scarcity economic infrastructure. Which no longer exists.

[Cynical Cat]

Of course all of the above requires a massive, complex, post-scarcity economic infrastructure. Which no longer exists.

Yes. Fortunately, some of us are Klingons.

[Lys]

One of the advantages of aristocracies is that in the event of apocalypse the surviving nobility forms a convenient foundation upon which to rebuild the system. This assumes competent nobles, of course, but apocalypses have a way of weeding out the incompetent, and Ishtar Charvanek fully intends to take care of any the Borg missed.

Anyway, whose turn is it to post?

[rhoenix]

This assumes competent nobles, of course, but apocalypses have a way of weeding out the incompetent, and Ishtar Charvanek fully intends to take care of any the Borg missed.

Yeah, there are now three prominent Romulans in our little fleet, and from the sounds of it, each of the three (Charvanek, Cretak, and Inzeti) has a different endgame in mind.

Moreover, I'd say it's a pretty good bet that all three know quite a bit about one another.

This is going to get interesting later on.

[Lys]

I find it adorable that you think Charvanek has only one endgame in mind.

[rhoenix]

I find it adorable that you think Charvanek has only one endgame in mind.

I'd imagine all the Romulans with only a single endgame in mind are dead by now.

The truly amusing part to me is that the only one of the three with any true claims to legitimacy as it pertains to other Romulans... is the nephew of Praetor Cretak. Ironic, that, considering history.

[Lys]

I'd imagine all the Romulans with only a single endgame in mind are dead by now.

Hardly the case, the system couldn't function with that kind of attrition even among the political class. Outside of it, the population are by and large fairly normal people who just want to get on with their lives. It takes fairly exceptional individuals to live lies and breathe treachery, the narrative just tends to focus on them because they are indeed exceptional.

The truly amusing part to me is that the only one of the three with any true claims to legitimacy as it pertains to other Romulans... is the nephew of Praetor Cretak. Ironic, that, considering history.

It's Senator Cretak, and there is nothing Charvanek has done that would compromise her legitimacy. If anything taking command of a Klingon ship gives her bonus points for exceptional leadership. She would also argue it's actually a Romulan ship wearing a salvaged Klingon hull.

[rhoenix]

Hardly the case, the system couldn't function with that kind of attrition even among the political class. Outside of it, the population are by and large fairly normal people who just want to get on with their lives. It takes fairly exceptional individuals to live lies and breathe treachery, the narrative just tends to focus on them because they are indeed exceptional.

Precisely my point, actually. ;)

It's Senator Cretak, and there is nothing Charvanek has done that would compromise her legitimacy. If anything taking command of a Klingon ship gives her bonus points for exceptional leadership. She would also argue it's actually a Romulan ship wearing a salvaged Klingon hull.

Perhaps it might appear so to some, but Riov Cretak here is the only one of the above three who's a) flying a Romulan ship, and b) has a Romulan crew. Neither Inzeti nor Chavanek can say that.

[Lys]

Perhaps it might appear so to some, but Riov Cretak here is the only one of the above three who's a) flying a Romulan ship, and b) has a Romulan crew. Neither Inzeti nor Charvanek can say that.

You speak as if the Romulan Imperial Fleet hasn't flow Klingon designs before. Besides, Charvanek's crew is over three quarters Romulan once you account for the fact that most Klingons aboard are soldiers and thus passengers rather than crew, unlike the Romulan soldiers who are an integral part of the crew's security contingent.

[rhoenix]

You speak as if the Romulan Imperial Fleet hasn't flow Klingon designs before. Besides, Charvanek's crew is over three quarters Romulan once you account for the fact that most Klingons aboard are soldiers and thus passengers rather than crew, unlike the Romulan soldiers who are an integral part of the crew's security contingent.

Commander Inzeti can say the same regarding Federation designs, for that matter. Her surviving former crew all became new crew of the Gilgamesh, after all.

However, the good Riov Cretak doesn't have to.

[General Havoc]

I've never heard anyone describe a Klingon as "just a passenger" before. We'll see if that comes back to haunt anyone...

[Lys]

And you've still not seen it, by the looks of it.

Besides, I was just making an accounting joke.

[Comrade Tortoise]

"Inertial dampers to protect the crew in the event of catastrophic shifts of position due to weapons fire or subspace events?"

"That's way too damned expensive. Next you'll go on about the surge protectors in the bridge consoles. We're on a fucking budget here!"

-Starfleet ship design conference

Hey man, there are inertial dampeners and then there are inertial dampeners. Accelerate to .25 c in a matter of seconds? No problem, so long as you tell the computer your are doing it so it can make the adjustments. Get hit with a subspace distortion.... well, for at least a few fractions of a second, the computer just got hit upside the head. Unfortunately for the crew...that is sufficient.

[Josh]

"Inertial dampers to protect the crew in the event of catastrophic shifts of position due to weapons fire or subspace events?"

"That's way too damned expensive. Next you'll go on about the surge protectors in the bridge consoles. We're on a fucking budget here!"

-Starfleet ship design conference

Hey man, there are inertial dampeners and then there are inertial dampeners. Accelerate to .25 c in a matter of seconds? No problem, so long as you tell the computer your are doing it so it can make the adjustments. Get hit with a subspace distortion.... well, for at least a few fractions of a second, the computer just got hit upside the head. Unfortunately for the crew...that is sufficient.

Sure, failure from the fabric of the universe coming unglued is one thing, but ST has repeatedly shown us crew getting tossed about from routine weapons fire.

[Comrade Tortoise]

"Inertial dampers to protect the crew in the event of catastrophic shifts of position due to weapons fire or subspace events?"

"That's way too damned expensive. Next you'll go on about the surge protectors in the bridge consoles. We're on a fucking budget here!"

-Starfleet ship design conference

Hey man, there are inertial dampeners and then there are inertial dampeners. Accelerate to .25 c in a matter of seconds? No problem, so long as you tell the computer your are doing it so it can make the adjustments. Get hit with a subspace distortion.... well, for at least a few fractions of a second, the computer just got hit upside the head. Unfortunately for the crew...that is sufficient.

Sure, failure from the fabric of the universe coming unglued is one thing, but ST has repeatedly shown us crew getting tossed about from routine weapons fire.

Yeah. Something the computer cannot adjust for. Think about it. Ship gets hit with photon torp, a 64 mt yield matter/antimatter annihilation. The shields create a physical barrier, so the ship itself does not take the worst of it, but...Newton. He Lives. Such a reaction is going to generate a lot of KE, because it is happening directly on top of what is in effect a huge strike plate. Think "Project Orion". And the crew only gets tossed around a little? I call that a win. Granted, my crew has quick release harnesses at their duty stations.

[Josh]

And some kind of restraint system makes sense when the style of combat involves getting the ship rocked about in three dimensions on a regular basis.

But I've never been one to rigidly stick to SoD-style analysis of series when the obvious answer is rule of cool in television production, and the cool involves everyone flinging themselves back and forth across the bridge.

It's especially funny to think about logically when you look at the Galaxy-class bridge layout and realize that the two most unsecured positions are the engineering and tactical consoles, which would logically rank up there with the helm on 'places you want the operator of securely in place during combat.'

[frigidmagi]

For the record I am still in the game. I just haven't posted because there's nothing meaningful I can add right now. Other then my poor starship is likely closer to living up to the name the vomit comet then the immortal right now.

[Hotfoot]

I'll likely make a post this week

[Cynical Cat]

It's especially funny to think about logically when you look at the Galaxy-class bridge layout and realize that the two most unsecured positions are the engineering and tactical consoles, which would logically rank up there with the helm on 'places you want the operator of securely in place during combat.'

Love the Klingon tactical positions on the K't'inga in first Star Trek movie.