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Hawkwings
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#76

Post by Hawkwings »

Well to me here's what things look like:

frigidmagi's character - mixed social and melee character
Cavalier's character - thinky character plus expert martial artist (I think you messed up on attributes, increasing them costs 4BP each and you have them too high anyways. It's 8/6/4, not 9/7/4 as you have before bonus point increases)
Hawkwings' character - thinky with a side of archery
Lys' character - spoiled brat who hasn't worked a hard day in her entire life (see that stamina 1? That's what it means! :razz:) Oh, and super socialite, with fancy swordwork too.

My character is probably best described by her First Age incarnation: a vehement supporter of the "Knowledge is power, guard it well" philosophy. Of course, as a small fry currently, she's more interested in acquiring and saving knowledge and solving mysteries than keeping it from others and jealously guarding it for herself.

As for development, she is not going to do sorcery. Maybe she'll learn a bit of thaumaturgy, but that's it. As for craft, well, the Craft (Air) that she's currently got I've been thinking is stuff like small, precise mechanisms. Internal workings of automatons, telescopes and orreries, clocks, etc. She'd be the one delving into the inner workings of the mechanisms controlling a manse, not the Craft(earth) person that does the big stuff.

Willpower, hmm... Considering 7WP is "Extremely strong-willed and determined", 5 suits her just fine at this stage. And the description fits too, "diffident and a little shy". Anything above 8 is considered "unreasonably intense". If you're going to take WP10 then I expect a very domineering attitude and your characters being difficult to work with. And having two of them? Well that's a recipe for some epic intra-party conflict right there. If you two don't regularly argue about differences of thought and opinion, I will consider that a cop-out :razz:
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#77

Post by frigidmagi »

So WP 6 is stubborn but reasonable?
"it takes two sides to end a war but only one to start one. And those who do not have swords may still die upon them." Tolken
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#78

Post by Hawkwings »

WP 6 is described as "sure and self-confident". They're all on pg115 of the core book.
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#79

Post by Cavalier »

Lunars have different character generation rules than Solars. They have three caste attributes, and one chosen favored attribute. Raising them costs 3 bonus points, not 4. And a Lunar with an assigned caste gets one free point to put into a favored attribute. So that went 9/6/4, and then +2 to Dexterity and +1 to Intelligence, spending 9 bonus points to get 10/8/4 attribute spread. Severely imbalanced in social skills, but then lying or being deceitful are problems for the character, as is making friends easily.

Also, some rules from the Core book are modified by the official "Scroll of Errata". It's a free download on drivethrurpg and presumably elsewhere.
Last edited by Cavalier on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#80

Post by Hawkwings »

Ah, silly me, didn't even think to consider that.

And yes, I have the errata.
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#81

Post by Lys »

Hawkwings wrote:Well to me here's what things look like:

frigidmagi's character - mixed social and melee character
Cavalier's character - thinky character plus expert martial artist (I think you messed up on attributes, increasing them costs 4BP each and you have them too high anyways. It's 8/6/4, not 9/7/4 as you have before bonus point increases)
Hawkwings' character - thinky with a side of archery
Lys' character - spoiled brat who hasn't worked a hard day in her entire life (see that stamina 1? That's what it means! ) Oh, and super socialite, with fancy swordwork too
I notice we have quite bit of overlap in abilities. It for example seems redundant that you took linguistics when it's one of my caste abilities, and I am going to start with Old and High Realm. So the difference is one of being able to talk to Realm peasants, who are only present in the Blessed Isle. On the other hand, investigate is one of your caste abilities that I'm taking and it might seem redundant for more than one party member to be investigative. Then there's both your and Cavalier's characters being scholars, though at least with different foci. The biggest overlap may be that fridgidmagi and me both have social/melee builds. I'm not sure how to fix any of this without compromising character concepts, or whether it's even in need of fixing.

The last example is particularly difficult, because Eclipses and Zeniths are both social characters, so to an extent it can't be helped. There is differentiation between the two, but it is rather subtle. An Eclipse is the able administrator and diplomat, whereas the Zenith is the inspiring leader and fiery orator. I tried to reflect this by not taking any points in performance, and focusing on manipulation over charisma, but there are still several similarities.

Your opinion of my character as a "spoiled brat" might change when I'm done writing the account of her exaltation. I wish I could give her more stamina, but there's just not enough points to have her be all I want her to be. I think I'll raise her resistance ability though, because my idea is that she is of a somewhat frail constitution, but overcomes it through skill and sheer willpower.

Willpower, hmm... Considering 7WP is "Extremely strong-willed and determined", 5 suits her just fine at this stage. And the description fits too, "diffident and a little shy". Anything above 8 is considered "unreasonably intense". If you're going to take WP10 then I expect a very domineering attitude and your characters being difficult to work with. And having two of them? Well that's a recipe for some epic intra-party conflict right there. If you two don't regularly argue about differences of thought and opinion, I will consider that a cop-out :razz:
The game is a bit inconsistent about these things. While it may say that a person with high willpower is intense, that doesn't actually make much sense. What's the conviction virtue for, then? I tend to think of willpower as mental health levels. Just like someone who is very tough and muscular need not necessarily be a brute, I don't think someone with high willpower is necessarily unreasonable.

Now, someone with high willpower and high conviction is a different matter. My character in particular makes conviction her crutch. She charges into battle, helps the needy, and turns down drunken orgies; but she doesn't do any of these things because she is brave, or because she cares, or because she disdains carnal pleasures. Rather she does what she does because it is Right and Necessary. Gods help you if you disagree.

This is not to say that she doesn't have inner emotions, and that everything is dictated by cold logic. Like I said, she's based a bit on Saber, so so she has real emotions but they are suppressed because she believes that's what has to be done. None of this is good for her mental health, and it expresses itself in the limit break I made for her: Crippling Indecision, or maybe Crushing Despair. The idea is that her conviction simply collapses from the strain put upon it, and she becomes unable to make decisions or commit to anything.
Last edited by Lys on Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#82

Post by The Nomad »

Agh! So many charsheets to review, it buuuurns :mad: (I have a game starting on another board too...)

Couple comments Lys:

Be careful with your backgrounds. You have no Resources, which means that for some reason your allowance has been suspended - you'll receive suitable apparatus for official occasions through Backing but will have nothing to spend on personal pursuits. There is also this Merit that turns into twice its worth in background points upon coming into your inheritance, but I'll have to check it for balance.
Likewise your daiklave - what's its dominant material (ie the one on which attunement and bonuses will be based)? Orichalcum I expect. Also, if you want a sword with special powers, explain them to me beforehand so that I can assign a proper cost - it might end up being Artifact 3 or 5 just as 4 unless it's ripped off a canon artifact (and I might need to adjust the cost of some of them), a piece of information which I must have missed.

I also had the idea of having you travel a bit and adventure to discover your tombs (well at least I did so in my other game, though I don't remember if I posted it here), and therefore your artifacts. The downside is that you start without shiny stuff, but on the plus side if you do well you're likely to get more shinies in there that you could get at chargen without making... sacrifices. Plus, it makes for good adventure!
(Remember it starts vanilla, so there'll be no heavy politics for the first few stories, it'll be relatively simple so that frigid and Hawkwings can get to know the system).

Regarding WP - not only is it a vital resource in gameplay terms, but fluffwise 99.9% of Exalts start as ambitious, larger than life heroes (and the remaining 0.1% become so as well, else they wouldn't Exalt). A WP of 8 or more is not surprising in Exalts, and the new chargen has been tweaked to indulge in that bit of optimization.
It also doesn't really translate into stubborness - it's Conviction and Valor that will really guide your character's behavior.
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#83

Post by Cavalier »

I can probably use a lot of experience actually working with the mechanics and seeing how it goes in practice, so going easy at first is quite fine with me.

I did wind up putting a lot of background into artifact, though I'll plead extenuating factors. A Lunar generally wouldn't have the lavish tombs of a Solar, and I had little enough to use background dots on. Resources, meh; a Lunar doesn't need money to sustain herself. And a lot of backing or allies or reputation or a high-dot mentor would mean he has undesirably strong ties to the Silver Pact. And forming a cult just isn't a really Lunar thing either.

Still, if it's troublesome I can certainly skip on them.
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#84

Post by Lys »

The Nomad wrote:Be careful with your backgrounds. You have no Resources, which means that for some reason your allowance has been suspended - you'll receive suitable apparatus for official occasions through Backing but will have nothing to spend on personal pursuits. There is also this Merit that turns into twice its worth in background points upon coming into your inheritance, but I'll have to check it for balance.
Well, I had this idea of making a background called "Royalty" and have it be worth 4 Resources, but I figured Backing would do just as well. I didn't want to just buy Resources because it implies that it comes with no strings attached, but for a Princess nothing comes free of strings. I don't think I want to get both Backing and Resources because the backing would have to be worth something. The situation back home is a bit delicate and her family is not exactly happy about her going in some damn fool quest when her powers would be of more use at home. She can't just ask them to send a detachment of the Royal Guard if she needs some backup. On the other hand she's also a hero and they trust her, so they are willing to let her keep her usual allowance.

Likewise your daiklave - what's its dominant material (ie the one on which attunement and bonuses will be based)? Orichalcum I expect. Also, if you want a sword with special powers, explain them to me beforehand so that I can assign a proper cost - it might end up being Artifact 3 or 5 just as 4 unless it's ripped off a canon artifact (and I might need to adjust the cost of some of them), a piece of information which I must have missed.
It's a preliminary character sheet, so I kept it simple. Clarent is a custom artifact and I'll give stats with the more complete sheet.
I also had the idea of having you travel a bit and adventure to discover your tombs (well at least I did so in my other game, though I don't remember if I posted it here), and therefore your artifacts. The downside is that you start without shiny stuff, but on the plus side if you do well you're likely to get more shinies in there that you could get at chargen without making... sacrifices. Plus, it makes for good adventure!
(Remember it starts vanilla, so there'll be no heavy politics for the first few stories, it'll be relatively simple so that frigid and Hawkwings can get to know the system).
There are three shinies I want to discover over the course of the game, compared to which Clarent is merely a fashionable accessory. I'll explain later in more detail over PM so we don't clutter up things here.
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#85

Post by Hawkwings »

Alright, responses going down the line:

Overlap: yes, we have quite a bit of overlap. This isn't a bad thing, it just means that we're going to have to work to differentiate our characters. And nobody took the social/mental mix since we're supposed to be good at combat and all. My character needs linguistics because she's a scholar, and specifically a scholar studying the Realm. No historical scholar worth her salt would be without Linguistics. It's not like she doesn't need it now because someone else has it. And it's not redundant at all for more than one character to be investigative. Unless of course, you're trying to optimize the party. And unless I missed the memo, that's not what we're trying to do here.

And I'm poking fun at you regarding character concept. I don't actually think your character is a spoiled brat - I know nothing about your character really. No need to get defensive about it.

Willpower: I can see your point, and if I rearrange some points I might put two into willpower, but I just have it say it's awfully boring and cheesy for everyone to start with willpower at 10, even if it is "easy". I fully intend for her to gain willpower as the story progresses, it's just that she doesn't start out like that. She starts out recently-exalted after all. It makes a lot of sense for her to start out thinking and acting more or less as she would when she was mortal. As her experience and powers grow, then confidence, ambition, and ego would as well.

Resources: I'm going to need some clarification here. Does Resources represent regular income, or stuff your character already has and owns? I chose to interpret it the second way, because that's what fit with the dot level descriptions and also regular income makes no sense for someone who has left to go adventuring.

Questing: I'd be fine with starting out with no artifacts, and then discovering them through our first few adventures. It makes a nice, simple and straightforward intro to ease us into the game. It would be good to get a ruling on this soonish though, so we can make the necessary adjustments now.

Just to say this now because I see it's going to come up sooner or later: I like creating powerful characters as much as the next guy, but I don't need an optimized character to have fun playing. Heck, I don't even need a particularly powerful character. Failure is far more interesting than success. Being perfect is boring. Things like flaws, character development, realistic interactions in an extraordinary setting, those are interesting. And I do have a fondness for "normal mundane person thrust into greatness and questing to discover what it really means" so that's what I am choosing to play here. And this is especially true because it's a new system for me. I want to see what the system has to offer, not blow off challenges because my character is tailored to overcoming them.
Last edited by Hawkwings on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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#86

Post by fgalkin »

Hmm...what are people's opinions on Sidereals?

Have a very nice day.
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#87

Post by Lys »

Hawkwings wrote:Resources: I'm going to need some clarification here. Does Resources represent regular income, or stuff your character already has and owns? I chose to interpret it the second way, because that's what fit with the dot level descriptions and also regular income makes no sense for someone who has left to go adventuring.
Page 363 of the Core has a sidebar showing the conversion of resource value to cash in terms of income rather than assets. For example Resources 3 is equivalent to 1 jade talent or 5 silver talents or 8000 koku per year. In game mechanics terms a person with R3 can buy as many R1 and R2 items as they want, but cannot afford any R4+ items at all, and can only afford a single R3 item every year. However, because resources are an abstracted value there is no particular reason why they cannot be taken to mean assets on hand.

Just to say this now because I see it's going to come up sooner or later: I like creating powerful characters as much as the next guy, but I don't need an optimized character to have fun playing. Heck, I don't even need a particularly powerful character. Failure is far more interesting than success. Being perfect is boring. Things like flaws, character development, realistic interactions in an extraordinary setting, those are interesting. And I do have a fondness for "normal mundane person thrust into greatness and questing to discover what it really means" so that's what I am choosing to play here. And this is especially true because it's a new system for me. I want to see what the system has to offer, not blow off challenges because my character is tailored to overcoming them.
Generally I like characters who are very good at what they do, but have large ability gaps that need to be covered by others. It's sort of like character classes in games such as Dungeons and Dragons, except that I don't like class based systems because the developers shouldn't be telling me what my character is and isn't good at. In this case my character is supposed to be the best at melee, mounted combat, and social engineering; but she knows little of performance, the occult, magitech, crafting, or outdoors survival.

fgalkin wrote:Hmm...what are people's opinions on Sidereals?
We've been over this, it's on the first page of this thread. Short version: They're broken. The person who did the change over from First Edition to Second Edition did a total hackjob.
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#88

Post by fgalkin »

Looking at it , it seems that Lys's problem is the poor port from first ed, and the whole "day job" issue. Not having played Sidereals before, I can't really say how they stack up against other Exalted types (although it shouldn't even be a point- Exalted was never designed to be balanced, but you can, and people have, played heroic mortals in mixed parties with Celestials and it worked). The whole Celestial Bureaucracy thing, well, you are right that awesome God-slaying mortals shouldn't be stuck behind a desk and drowned with paperwork, but neither should they be turned into brainwashed sex toys for the Solars, yet this is exactly what happened to the Lunars. Sidereals being stuck in Yu-Shan was probably a deliberate attempt to sideline them by the new wanktastic kings of Creation, just like the whole Solar Bond thing was put in by Luna at Sol's insistence to ensure the Lunars' loyalty.

So, the issue is, just how broken are the Sidereals mechanically? Are they completely useless? Are they good only in certain areas (like the Lunars which can be either combat monsters or sneaky infiltrators, but nothing else)?

Having said that, what do people think of gods? :grin:

Have a very nice day.
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Last edited by fgalkin on Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#89

Post by The Nomad »

The player base has been promised a Sidereal errata for nearly a year now. I'm starting to think it'll never happen.
(Also, I think I'll have to close the game for now, at least until one of the current players drops out. I'm being slightly overwhelmed now).

@Hawkwings: Resources can mean a regular income, from owned land or shares in a Guild enterprise, for example. Just read the background's description. It can fluctuate if you neglect it, or events cause the economy to crash.

Regarding WP, your character is already supposed to be pretty strong minded and wilful. 5 is the bare minimum to qualify as an Exalt; your character should be larger than life, else he wouldn't Exalt as a Solar.
I must warn you that your risk crippling your character's power growth, as WP is extremely cheaper at chargen, and extremely costly to raise later. And I must stress out that it is a vital resource: it is your mental fortitude, which will allow your character to remain master of his thoughts and opinions against social-fu gurus, and fuel powers and Combos to stay alive. At the start of the game I don't intend to hammer you with difficult fights, but even later it can be costly to catch up...
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#90

Post by fgalkin »

Awww, so much for sneaking up on my enemies and giving them the Essence Bite from behind. :grin:

Have a very nice day.
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#91

Post by frigidmagi »

Question and this is a dumb one but...

I can't find the instructions on how to calculate my join battle and soak? Also what do I put down on attacks?

The online essay says join battle is wits+awareness?
Last edited by frigidmagi on Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#92

Post by fgalkin »

Natural Soak: [Stamina]/2 in Lethal (Round down), [Stamina] in Bashing.
Join Battle/Debate: Wits + Awareness.
Join War: Wits + War

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#93

Post by frigidmagi »

Thanks Fima.

Edit: I have added my join battle, soak, equipment and limit break. My equipment I know seems crappy but well Amoneth just walked out of the wilds.
Last edited by frigidmagi on Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#94

Post by Hawkwings »

So can we get a verdict on artifacts?

And fine, I'll max out willpower. Just need to figure out where to take points from.
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#95

Post by Cavalier »

Well, you don't have to max out right away, but getting 7 or 8 is probably a good target. Maxing out is mechanically optimal, and as Solars taking a couple of dots out of ability won't hurt too badly. Maxing out requires more sacrifice, probably from attributes or charms.

As far as artifacts, well, the chargen rules do assume you're playing an Exalt a year or more after Exaltation. Lunars do have an existing support network in the Silver Pact (and no convenient tombs, usually) but Solars are pretty much on their own. Unless the Cult of the Illuminated gets their hooks into them, anyway. Limiting the number of artifacts or even forbidding them absent Very Good Justification might not be unreasonable. I know Lys has a particular plot in mind with her artifact she's discussing with Nomad, but mine are kind of... chosen for optimization purposes, and I don't think frigid or hawkwings have characters where artifacts are vital to concept, either.
Last edited by Cavalier on Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#96

Post by frigidmagi »

I do have Amoneth walking around with a Dire Lance that he found, but that's pretty much it.
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#97

Post by The Nomad »

Well technically artifacts, especially orichalcum ones, don't just appear out of nowhere - you have to find your past incarnation tomb. I'd like to roleplay that part, so you'd start without artifacts, but generally speaking you'd get something like 8+ dots of Artifacts each for your travails - not something to sneeze at (yeah, First Age Dragon-Blooded loaded the tombs of the Solars they murdered, both out of lingering respect for their radiant, demented overlords and to placate their still very powerful ghosts). And you can put the chargen background points in interesting things like Contacts, Allies, Followers or Cult.

Lunar (moonsilver) artifacts, well generally have already been retrieved by past incarnations, or crafted by them, so either they've been lost in the Wyld or to the Wyld Hunt (and stored under guard), or are in custody of a past incarnation's friend who might hand them out immediately or test the new Exalted. In the latter case it's functionally the same storyline. Going by that angle, it'd be ok to take dots in Silver Pacts background, just not enough to have responsibilities with, say, the Winding Path (social engineers) or Wardens of Gaia (Greenpeace, with fangs). Being a member of the Swords of Luna (monster-slayers) or Crossroads Society (savants & sorcerers) is ok, as is a Mentor. And of course Lunars can start with Tatoo Artifacts right away - they're crafted at the same time as the tatoos and can't be added or erased after.

@Lys: oh by the way, just forgot...

*takes newspaper*

*slap* NO YOU CAN'T GET THE DIRECTIONAL TITAN! BAD, BAD LYS!

:razz:

Well, regarding the artifacts, we'll see. If I find it convenient, one of them would be in your tomb in addition to Clarent (if I go that route, it wouldn't be fair or justifiable to have you start with it while the others get nothing).
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#98

Post by frigidmagi »

Look Nomad, none of those backgrounds work with the character. So I'm not taking them. I'm not intentionally trying to be difficult but I'm not going to warp the character either. That left me Artifact and Familiar. Frankly I would have been happy to ditch that whole section. Let me stress guys that I am not creating this guy to be mechanically optimized, there's a concept I came up with and I'm sticking with it. He can get better in game.

I'm staying rather firmly at 2 Artifact and 5 Familiar. As for the Dire Lance, he found it in an old battlefield or in the camp, when I figure it out I'll write it up.
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#99

Post by The Nomad »

And I must stress out that artifacts do not appear like that, they're the ancient heritage of an Age of Legends, not a +2 Sword of Demon Hacking - "I found it in my bedroom" is not going to cut it either. The other possibility is taking a jade artifact - you can attune it for a higher mote cost but it has several benefits - namely, you can expose it and pass for a Dragon-Blood, while orichalcum artifacts would single you out as Anathema. Jade is also much more common than orichalcum; you could explain getting it by having taken it from the body of a Wyld Hunter sent after you.
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#100

Post by fgalkin »

What about Merits? IIRC, there is nothing preventing Solars from taking them, right? So, frigid can take 5 points of merits (he's a tree-dweller, so he should get Omnidexterity and wield the dire lance with his feet :D) or learn thaumaturgy.

Or, yes, get a jade weapon. He can attune normally to it, and lose the material bonus. That's how the Bull of the North got his sword, IIRC.

Have a very nice day.
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