Star Trek: Death of the Federation

[rhoenix]

I will be making a follow-up post as soon as I'm not high on multiple drugs. I want to turn the remainder of the Cube into pretty fireworks.

[Charon]

I will be making a follow-up post as soon as I'm not high on multiple drugs. I want to turn the remainder of the Cube into pretty fireworks.

I think it's gonna take quite a bit more to turn the Cube into pretty fireworks.

[Marcao]

I concur with Charon. The task force definately kicked the Borg in a tender spot, but I am not counting victory until that Cube is an assortment of debris. Sadly, my Warbirds firepower is significantly diminished when the Sword is not involved. As such, I am going to spend the next post letting the Riskadh, Vigilant, Barbarossa, Immortal and others that can try and keep stabbing at the facing do their thing. I have some troops I must disgorge.

[Charon]

Well I'm still pretty fresh to the fight. My brief fight with the sphere ended very quickly and my shields are pretty much at full. I'm also covering the retreat of our more injured ships, and I'm a goddamn D'deridex. In short, I can sit in front of this injured borg for awhile and wail on it with everything I've got while the rest of you get ready for your second attack runs.

[rhoenix]

See, this is what I'm talking about when I say "fireworks."

Its too damn big for just one more shot to kill it, but a good concentrated salvo in its new weak point should make things interesting.

[LadyTevar]

I thought we killed all Frigates!!

[Charon]

So can I get a quick overview of where everybody is and what they're doing?

Barbarossa is currently attacking the Borg cube's injured facing. Though that may have to change soon since I can't keep up to them spinning.

[General Havoc]

There was one frigate that was damaged but not destroyed. It is now eliminated.

[LadyTevar]

Motherfuck... I thought we'd killed all of them


Ok, the Spector is fast enough to keep up with the Cube's face-shift, I hope. I'm gonna try.

[LadyTevar]

An interesting little discussion you boys should know about:

[18:30] (WhiteHaven): If you have a shedload of tractors, try to grab it and earfuck that big gaping hole.
((Cut & Pasted to the GM))

[18:53] tevartahalshia: Could a tractor-hold on the facing drag you with it?
[18:53] tevartahalshia: or slow down the facing's speed?
[18:54] GenHavoc: Hrm
[18:55] GenHavoc: A tractor-hold on the facing could definitely drag you with it
[18:55] GenHavoc: I don't know that one ship could meaningfully slow its speed
[18:55] GenHavoc: The problem is that it would _literally_ drag you, you would be dragged along like an object on the end of a rope
[18:56] tevartahalshia: Add in your engines 'helping', and you might keep up?
[18:58] GenHavoc: You might well
[18:58] tevartahalshia: Well... the Spector's not crazy enough to try it
[18:58] GenHavoc: Hehe, the Spector doesn't need to
[18:58] GenHavoc: Some of the cruisers though, the ones who can't keep up themselves

It's like the old game of "Crack the Whip" -- if the rope (or what it's attached to) breaks, you're going to go flying. HOWEVER, until it breaks, it's doing all the work of pulling you around.

So boys, who's going to try it first?

[General Havoc]

I'll mention that it will have another effect as well. Tractor beams are rigid, for all intents and purposes (in that they don't "bend"), but given that the cube is spinning and you are orbitting it, being dragged by a tractor will also have the effect of pulling you IN closer to the Cube as well as dragging you around it.

[frigidmagi]

I'm already pulling the Argo out.

[Jason_Firewalker]

Captain's Name: Alpha Jervak
Captain's Species: Hirogen
Captain's Background: Raised in the Delta Quadrant, Jervak was a talented Hunter, an amazing warrior and son of the greatest Hunt Master his clan had ever known in recent history, Lord Grath. He made his first hunt at the tender age of twelve. For the next twenty years he climbed tooth and nail through the ranks of his clan climbing all the way to the rank of Gamma. His father was proud of his rising star of a son, until Mervran, the Clan Beta, got the idea into Grath's head that his son was a threat to his control of the clan. By the time this seed of doubt had been placed Jervak was nearing forty years of age, and the youngest Alpha of a Spitz-class Hunting Cruiser ever in clan history, outdoing his father by two whole years. His father was frightened by his son's near meteoric rise through the clan hierarchy despite his son's assurances of no intentions of that kind against his father.

He was quickly sent to the Maradgra Quadrant (what Starfleet refers to as the Alpha Quadrant) to determine how good a hunting grounds it was for the clan to move to. The Razor's Edge arrived in mid-2390. Hunting well along the Romulan and Gorn borders, even venturing into Tholian space at times, the Razor's Edge was just about to turn around to return home from its twenty year Hunt when the Borg invasion of the Romulan Star Empire began. Largely ignored for the most part in the first days of the war, the Razor's Edge swung its bow for the Delta Quadrant at maximum warp. Quickly realizing that there was no viable way home through the path of destruction laid by the Borg, Jervak swung around again after his first encounter with a Borg Sphere and towards the fabled "Earth" spoken of by the crew of the USS Voyager. Contacting then Admiral Kathryn Janeway, Jervak offered a proposition, a fully crewed and gunned Hirogen ship with 1550 Hirogen aboard to aid in the fight against the Borg in exchange for protection from the Borg.

It was a choice of desperation. Having no way home, having no where to run, Jervak had come to the conclusion his fate and the fate of his hunters was all in the hands of the Federation and its allies, and if he could help them survive then maybe some day his hunters or their progeny could make it home to the Delta Quadrant with trophies never seen before by any other Hirogen.

Having fought valiantly along the side of the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans and all others, Jervak and his crew are distinguished Borg Hunters now. Using their skills as Hunters they have kept hidden for the most part since the fall of Earth, repairing the Razor's Edge, resupplying her torpedo bays and preparing to make the run to the system known to them only as "B-jer".

Ship Name: Razor's Edge
Ship Class: Hirogen Spitz-Class Hunting Cruiser

Dimensions:
Length: 665 meters
Beam: 472.47 meters
Height: 194.42 meters

Armament:
10x Heavy Charge Tetryon Beam Arrays (Equivalent to Starfleet Type XII Phaser Arrays)
4x Fore firing Rapid Burst Fire Torpedo Launchers
2x Aft firing Rapid Burst Fire Torpedo Launchers

Torpedo Compliment: 97 Photon Torpedos, 24 Quantum Torpedos, 15 Heavy Plasma Torpedos

Crew composition: 1097 Hirogen Hunters, 205 Hirogen technicians, 1 Tholian prisioner/living trophy/curiosity to the Hirogen. Original compliment was 1400 Hirogen Hunters, 300 Hirogen Technicians.

Special Systems and other Acquisitions:
1: Two additional computer cores: These are secondary computer cores scavenged off the wreck of the Galaxy-Class USS Magellan. They are used to run the holograms for systems two and three at any time.

2: Holo-Hunting: Called the Artificial Hunt, the ship has been outfitted in every nook, crany, jeffries tube equivilent, corridor and room with holo-emitters allowing the Hirogen to create prey to hunt as well as additional troops to fend off boarding actions. Can remain online for an hour before being required to be shut off.

3: Ship Scale Holo-Projection Grid: A series of holographic generators are mounted along the hull of the Razor's Edge, allowing it to for short periods of time project holograms into space. Lasting no more then a matter of minutes, these holograms are realistic to the Nth degree, capable of dishing out damage and soaking it up as well. Unable to fire anything but directed energy weapons (if a vessel or some equivalent), they are such quality holograms that they are able to fool even the most detailed scans for a time, but they would not stand up under true massive long term scrutiny, but thankfully (in a sense) dissipate well before such a scan can reveal them for what they really are.

Secondary Specials (Useless against Borg opponents as they have already adapted to this technology due to previous assimilation of Hirogen technology):

1: Subnucleonic Beam Scanner

2: Monotanium Hull Plating

3: Stealth Mode/Silent Running

Ship's Weakness:

1: Mish-Mosh Technological Upgrades: Hirogen ship and power systems running Starfleet computer cores that are operating Ferengi holo-emitter technology. This prevents the holo-grid systems from remaining active at all times and requiring cool-down periods between uses. The Holo-Hunt and Ship-Scale grid may not be operated at the same time and require at least a minute or two between activating the next system.

2: Blown Optronic Relay: On deck 7 there is a blown relay that controls warp drive activation and course plotting/corrections. The relay could be replaced easily in Hirogen territory but unfortunately they are not in Hirogen territory. The relay is operating at only 60% efficiency, severely limiting all warp abilities of the vessel in terms of maneuverability, initiating warp drive, stopping from warp and accelerating/decelerating in warp. This does not prevent use of the warp drive or maximum speed.

3: Ventilated Deck 35: Deck 35 is exposed to space due to a multitude of mico-borings in the hull, there is no atmosphere, at all... Hope you brought EVA gear...

4: Radiological Field: An odd unknown radiation field exists on decks 19 thru 21. None of the ships sensors work to scan this 7x7x7 meter area. It is dangerous for any biological organism/substance to be exposed to it. The Hirogen have no idea what this field is, how to get rid of it or even if there is a way to get rid of it. It has never expanded or decreased.

Service history to-date:

Battle For Kithkar Pass: A subspace fast zone exists in the Kithkar region of space and was a hotly contested piece of ground during the Borg invasion. The pass fell about 12 days after the Battle for Earth ended. The Razor's Edge was damaged severely in the fight and has been fairly on the run since.

Encounter with FTV Profit Margin: The USS Magellan was encountered adrift and abandoned in the Psi Velorum Region of space by the FTV Profit Margin. The Profit Margin salvaged what it could off the Magellan taking to warp at the first flicker of a Borg vessel dropping out of warp. Ten days later it encountered the Razor's Edge, and not of its own volition. The Razor's Edge used it's subnucleonic beam to disable the Profit Margin and boarded the vessel, stripping it of all serviceable parts and hunting its crew down to the last lobe.

Repair Facility Turond One: Encountering an abandoned space dock facility in the Alpha Gemara sector, the Razor's Edge set in for a short time to initiate repairs and install its new systems acquired from the Profit Margin. This refit took the Hunters out of the game for nearly nine months, somehow entirely avoiding any contact with the Borg till just before the installation of equipment was complete. The Razor's Edge was almost fixed when a Borg Sphere dropped out of warp 400 km off the aft section of the vessel. Its first hit damaged the optronic relay that controls warp drive. The Razor's Edge swung with all its might, disabling the Sphere and warping out.

Varying Encounters: The Razor's Edge has become a hunter again, hunting down single or very small groups of Borg vessels. It has a running tally on its side of kills. Red slices indicate Cubes (has 7, all from the battle for the pass), Blue slices indicate Spheres (26, 10 from the battle for the pass, the rest from hunting), purple indicate lesser Borg vessels (47, from varying encounters).

[Cynical Cat]

Jesus fucking Christ Firewalker. You've managed to submit an idea that's ridiculously overpowered and full of stupid. Go back to the beginning, do not collect $200 dollars, and pray to whatever gods you worship that Havoc never gains the ability to hate people to death.

[Jason_Firewalker]

Cyn, you really live up to your name, you are one cynical son of a gun. I actually spoke of this with Havoc over AIM for 3, almost 4 days before submitting this, walked through exactly what armaments he would allow, as for the special powers, I took the idea from the Photonic Fleet from Star Trek Online (I like the concept because of the relative newness of Holo-Tech to the Hirogen people and their apparent enamoration with said technology). I am assuming your reference to OP in your opinion is in relation the the Photon-Fleet. If it is not, please do inform me of what is and where I went wrong in your opinion.

[rhoenix]

Alright, some questions.

1. Your "Holo-Hunt" fixture - what are its limits, apart from only being on for an hour?

2. the "Holo-fleet" ability - what are its limits, apart from only "a few minutes" per hologram? How many can you have active at once, and what are their limitations beyond "beams only"?

[Jason_Firewalker]

Alright questions!!!

Alright, some questions.

1. Your "Holo-Hunt" fixture - what are its limits, apart from only being on for an hour?

Its limits are much like those of a standard holodeck on any starfleet vessel. With one exception, the saftey protocol can be turned off with the push of a button and the "prey" can be turned to only target certain types of people (i.e. Borg, Remans, Jem'Hadar etc...). Basically this feature allows the Hirogen to create from files already in their computer, holograms that can engage Borg boarding parties on-board the ship. Think of the episode of Voyager where the Hirogen basically turn the entire ship into a Holodeck and you have Nazis and Klingons and American GIs running through the corridors shooting things at each other, punching walls in bulkheads with holographic explosives, shooting holes in doors with disruptors.

[quote="rheonix] 2. the "Holo-fleet" ability - what are its limits, apart from only "a few minutes" per hologram? How many can you have active at once, and what are their limitations beyond "beams only"? [/quote]

This is pretty much an extension of the Photonic Fleet from Star Trek Online. I would be able to create a small number (yet to be determined but between 2 and 4) Hirogen Hunting Vessels that must remain within 80 km of my vessel for the entirety of the duration of the activation of the ability. These vessels are effectively frigates with no torpedo weapons. As the episode of ST:TNG A Matter of Perspective when the holodeck was used to recreate the Krieger wave device it was burning holes in bulkeads all the way on the other side of the ship, a holodeck recreates the abilities of that device entirely. Effectively this ability recreates a small number of hirogen vessels at my command for a span of 5 min at which point the emitters begin to go into overload and the saftey mechanisms shut them off.

Now as a piece of note, going from using the hunt to the fleet or vise versa the systems require a 90 second refresh. Re-using the hunt or the fleet requires 240 second refresh. I cannot have both active at the same time.[/url]

[General Havoc]

Firewalker, I would rather you not speak for me like that. I said that some of those special systems were at least theoretically workable, not that you were allowed to have six different special systems, half of whom I've never heard of before.

I will go into this in detail later.

[Jason_Firewalker]

Firewalker, I would rather you not speak for me like that. I said that some of those special systems were at least theoretically workable, not that you were allowed to have six different special systems, half of whom I've never heard of before.

I will go into this in detail later.

If you look at my exact wording I only referred to you in relation to the armament, and I did provide you with the three links in my post last night and the night before. The other ones (what I created) were gone over between us last night also and your exact words is they are workable, I did not say approved on anything but the armament on my ship in terms of beams and torps.

[Cynical Cat]

I'll address your problems Firewalker. I'll drop the issue of misrepresenting your conversations with Havoc because it's entirely his business how much of your hide he chews off for that.

1) Subnucleonic Beam: A one shot ship disabler. You don't mention any drawbacks, costs, or situations where it won't work. Totally broken.

2) Monotanium Armour: Ship armour that is nearly invulnerable. Again without any mentions of offsetting costs, weaknesses, or limitations. Again, totally broken.

Then lets get to the Photonic Fleet, an idea only fit for an MMO.

Lets go over how Holographic technology works. Holograms and force fields create solid seaming objects that can interact with real objects. They can also simulate the effects of said objects, subject to the limitations of the emitters to generate the appropriate effects.


So why is a photonic fleet totally unworkable? Let me start the list.

1) Emitters. You need force field and holo emitters all over your ship in sufficient quantity to manage several fake starships and their maneuvers. That equipment will also take up considerable room inside your hull.

2) Power. Force fields the size of starships that can sustain multiple hits from high energy weapons requires gigantic amount of power.

3) Weapons fire. This is where we get especially silly. Inside a holodeck their are emitters surrounding everything that can simulate whatever you need. That's not the case in space. The ship isn't real, isn't made of matter, doesn't have a power plant, circuitry, and phaser banks. It's a force field that looks like a ship. The only emitters are on your ship. So your holo emitters now double as phaser banks. And, of course, where does the power come from? Your ship.

What does your ship tear out in order to fit in all these new beam weapon banks, force field generators, and hologram projectors? How does it power them? This on top of your battlecruiser arnament, your disabler beam, and your super armour? This is Scimitar class wankery alloyed with stupidity.

[rhoenix]

Alright, time for the jaws.

2: Holo-Hunting: Called the Artificial Hunt, the ship has been outfitted in every nook, crany, jeffries tube equivilent, corridor and room with holo-emitters allowing the Hirogen to create prey to hunt as well as additional troops to fend off boarding actions. Can remain online for an hour before being required to be shut off.

This I'm okay with. It makes sense, and it fits with existing themes.

3: Ship Scale Holo-Projection Grid: A series of holographic generators are mounted along the hull of the Razor's Edge, allowing it to for short periods of time project holograms into space. Lasting no more then a matter of minutes, these holograms are realistic to the Nth degree, capable of dishing out damage and soaking it up as well. Unable to fire anything but directed energy weapons (if a vessel or some equivalent), they are such quality holograms that they are able to fool even the most detailed scans for a time, but they would not stand up under true massive long term scrutiny, but thankfully (in a sense) dissipate well before such a scan can reveal them for what they really are.

No.

After some time to reflect on this, it just doesn't work.

I don't care if it was shown on Voyager.

Given existing limitations on how holograms work, I do not see any way for them to damage anything - they'd be essentially floating apparitions in space at best.

1: Subnucleonic Beam Scanner

I note you conveniently left the descriptions off for these, and yet you still want them.

Yes, the Borg have likely assimilated Hirogen ships and therefore have a defense against this. Still though, it's a giant no-limits fallacy.

A subnucleonic beam can perform rapid scans of an enemy ship and can also severely disable it. The subnucleonic beam works by disrupting a ship's propulsion systems, communications systems, weapons and its navigational sensors. Once a target ship is disabled, the Hirogen use their tractor beam technology to draw in their prey. (VOY: "Hunters")

Now, if its purpose was rapid scans of a ship to find weaknesses, I'd be okay with it. However, it's "lol u = disabled" aspect is just weaksauce.

2: Monotanium Hull Plating

This is another thing you didn't elaborate on.

Monotanium is a metallic alloy typically used in the armor plating of Hirogen warships and space stations. It also has the added effect of scattering targeting beams. (VOY: "Hunters") On their first encounters, USS Voyager's weapons were relatively ineffective against the Hirogen ships' armor. (VOY: "Prey")

Ok. Its active property appears to be "scatters targeting beams", which didn't and doesn't take much to adapt to. Given the lack of other description of this armor, if all it does is basically act as stealth paint, that's fine.

3: Stealth Mode/Silent Running

No notes, no elaboration, no description apart from a very generic description of "Stealth."

No device listed, no limits listed.

In short: No.


The rest is pretty generic stuff, apart from using tetryon DEW instead of something else.

...Except for there being no listed effects of tetryon weapons, apart from in STO - which, as we know for purposes of Havoc's game, Does Not Exist.

Firewalker, you're going to have to do better than that.

=====

I'll even help here. You said you wanted basically a Sovereign that's a little faster, and has a bit more of a glass jaw. That's fine - but you're instead focusing on "HOLY SHIT THIS WOULD BE AWESOME" to the exclusion of workability, or efficacy.

What you want can be done - but you're going to have to sit down and create a theme, and then create a ship from there. This is not a shopping spree - you are on a budget so to speak. Yes, you can have some cool shit, but they must be well-defined, have limits, and make sense in-universe.

Voyager, sadly, does not make much sense in-universe.

[Jason_Firewalker]

Rheonix, Star Trek First Contact laid out the ability that even a holographic bullet can kill when the saftey protocols are turned off, as show by Capt. Picard in the scene where he and Lily are on the holodeck in a Dixon Hill novel program and he plasters a pair of drones with a holographic Tommy Gun. Goto approx 51 min 30ish seconds into the movie. Its also been made clear on several TNG and DS9 episodes.

Now, the only reason I included the subnucleonic beam, the monotanium hull and the stealth mode (which prior to me actually looking directly at Hirogen tech, which was after I decided I would create a character, but the concept of a Hirogen hit me before my El Aurian character concept did) was because it was listed as technology they have, I don't really care about those things at all. I can loose those without a second thought.

Just as a clarification, from the episode of Voyager where they chase the holograms (which is the episode where their Silent Running mode is introduced BTW) it basically means they are really hard to pick up on Long Range Sensors, but does nothing at all to short range sensors, targeting sensors etc... Basically makes it so they are hard to see while they track you.

[rhoenix]

Rheonix, Star Trek First Contact laid out the ability that even a holographic bullet can kill when the saftey protocols are turned off, as show by Capt. Picard in the scene where he and Lily are on the holodeck in a Dixon Hill novel program and he plasters a pair of drones with a holographic Tommy Gun. Goto approx 51 min 30ish seconds into the movie. Its also been made clear on several TNG and DS9 episodes.

Yes. When they were within Holodecks.

What you are talking about is doing so OUTSIDE of a Holodeck, and that's precisely what I have a problem with.

Now, the only reason I included the subnucleonic beam, the monotanium hull and the stealth mode (which prior to me actually looking directly at Hirogen tech, which was after I decided I would create a character, but the concept of a Hirogen hit me before my El Aurian character concept did) was because it was listed as technology they have, I don't really care about those things at all. I can loose those without a second thought.

It's not a question of just chopping them off - you didn't elaborate on what they did or how they worked. There were no limits defined as to their use.

Just as a clarification, from the episode of Voyager where they chase the holograms (which is the episode where their Silent Running mode is introduced BTW) it basically means they are really hard to pick up on Long Range Sensors, but does nothing at all to short range sensors, targeting sensors etc... Basically makes it so they are hard to see while they track you.

...So, stealth paint that only works at long range.

Really?

[Jason_Firewalker]

Rheonix, Star Trek First Contact laid out the ability that even a holographic bullet can kill when the saftey protocols are turned off, as show by Capt. Picard in the scene where he and Lily are on the holodeck in a Dixon Hill novel program and he plasters a pair of drones with a holographic Tommy Gun. Goto approx 51 min 30ish seconds into the movie. Its also been made clear on several TNG and DS9 episodes.

Yes. When they were within Holodecks.

What you are talking about is doing so OUTSIDE of a Holodeck, and that's precisely what I have a problem with.

Now, the only reason I included the subnucleonic beam, the monotanium hull and the stealth mode (which prior to me actually looking directly at Hirogen tech, which was after I decided I would create a character, but the concept of a Hirogen hit me before my El Aurian character concept did) was because it was listed as technology they have, I don't really care about those things at all. I can loose those without a second thought.

It's not a question of just chopping them off - you didn't elaborate on what they did or how they worked. There were no limits defined as to their use.

Just as a clarification, from the episode of Voyager where they chase the holograms (which is the episode where their Silent Running mode is introduced BTW) it basically means they are really hard to pick up on Long Range Sensors, but does nothing at all to short range sensors, targeting sensors etc... Basically makes it so they are hard to see while they track you.

...So, stealth paint that only works at long range.

Really?

Alright... well then, now that I am fully clear that issue with the holo-system was the lack of containing walls I can progress with a solution/replacement.

As for what the others do, basically from the episodes of Voyager that they come from, the Subnucleonic beam shuts down or severely decreased the power to the majority of Voyagers systems for a short time (since its hard to keep track of time when they are flashing around and air time doesnt always equal time elapsed on TV and in movies) I would guess that it lasted somewhere around a minute.

The monotanium just meant that they were somewhat harder to hit and Voyagers shots more often then not still hit, just less often then normal, Tuvoc had no issue compensating well within a minute for the issue.

Third, its not a paint job, what they do, since there is not technobabble or YATI on it this will be supposition, would be to run all systems except a few at minimum power and project a dampening field around the vessel, making it hard to detect them at long range. Its like submarine warfare, the whole "Run Silent Run Deep" ideal at play in space.

[rhoenix]

Look - there are far simpler ways of going about this.

Want stealth? Use a cloaking device. End of story.

Want added armor? Your ship won't be as fast, which throws up a landmine to your "I want to be fast and hit hard" theme. Think carefully about this. If Havoc allows it, ablative armor would be better.

As for the magic power-draining subnucleonic beam... either drop it, or change it into a targeting system of some sort instead.