STGOD rules thread

[Steve]

True, though on the other hand it means smaller countries with larger industries and/or bigger armies could, if not conquer such a nation, lop off pieces of it and fortify them if said country is too weak in forces, population, and/or infrastructure to protect its massive frontiers.

I suppose you could create an interlocking set of prerequisites and bonuses, with the bonuses never coming closer than, say, 2 points of the actual value spent in said category (a 5 in a category would only give 3 points in bonuses). As it is the current system, if that's not been changed, gives bonuses to a focus of the player's choice at various Industry levels, counterbalanced by the fact that the higher your industry the more you need to spend in non-military categories.

[The Cleric]

This system is already way WAY to cumbersome :/.

[Steve]

Well, another possibility is to just keep the pre-requisites and Focus boosts as they have been voted and leave them like that.

[Hotfoot]

I did post a draft of possible alternate rules set, I'll be posting a more concrete version tonight.

[Hotfoot]

Here is a somewhat cleaned up version with several suggestions made by others so far. Tell me what you think.

1930's STGOD Rules

Homeland
This is more an amalgam of Population, Infrastructure, Industry, and Economy than its own score. It shows the relative value of the land you have. It is used for pre-requisite calculations for technology and so forth. This value goes down as combat damages or destroys parts of the nation, attacking nations can add the subtracted value in certain circumstances. In the event of espionage in R&D, this value will be used to provide a baseline to work with.

Colonial
Colonies allow for improved trade across the globe as well as remote military bases and ports for armies of the parent nation, but they are not as developed as the parent nation. Treat all colonial territories as having an Infrastructure of one step below the nation's overall infrastructure rating (Alternatively, Colony rating). Also, as long as the colonies remain happy and free, they provide a trade bonus equal to their rating to the parent nation.

Population
High population nations are able to throw more men into the fray, increasing the numbers on the ground. A higher population affects army reserves.

Economy
Economy affects trade, and how well the government can improve their war effort in times of emergency. Higher economies allow for increased wartime production and sustaining the production itself for longer. Also, the Economic rating is used when determining trade relations. (Trade rule: Must maintain a trade route for 1 turn before trade benefits kick in. Trade is determined by multiples of your nation's economy value. To get +1 Economy, you must maintain trade equal to your economy rating (If you have economy 5, you must trade with at least a +5 rating nation, multiple trade agreements can be added together, so a 2 economy and 3 economy nation count as 5 trade relations as long as both are maintained. You can only effectively double your economy by trade. Note that for a 5 economy nation, that would involve 25 points of trade in order to achieve)

Note that if one's Colonial score is higher than their Economy score, they do not get a bonus to trade unless they have at least one active trade agreement.

When in wartime production, you choose how much economy to sacrifice for military purposes. Each level gives you +25% and once the production is finished, the economy remains lowered for a number of turns equal to the total commitment of sacrifice. If your economy is lower than your population, you are considered to have entered rationing (if this is the norm, consider penalties for happiness/loyalty) and will be faced with general dissent after a number of years (turns?) equal to your normal economy rating.

Industry (Industry Level 1 should be able to produce escorts and a few cruisers, light infantry and fighters reasonably well, and support a little beyond that. Industry Level 3 should be able to maintain construction of light mechanized, fighters and bombers, and up to a battleship with support. Level 5 should be able to build all heavy attack from all options and rearm depleted units well)

Level 1: 200 points (yearly, 50 points per season)
Level 2: 300 points (yearly, 75 points per season)
Level 3: 400 points (yearly, 100 points per season)
Level 4: 500 points (yearly, 125 points per season)
Level 5: 600 points (yearly, 150 points per season)

Industry can also be used to increase industry and infrastructure, with the cost being spent over the course of at least a year. Costs are as follows:

1->2: 150pt
2->3: 200pt
3->4: 250pt
4->5: 300pt

Infrastructure
Allows for fast resupply to the fronts in territory you control, troop mobilization, and for forward bases in colonial holdings, is a primary resource for Airpower Reserves.

Military
Standing Military:
Pre-Game Military Units Cost Half normal, points can be spent as the player desires, but using a solid combined arms doctrine is highly recommended.

Level 1: 400
Level 2: 600
Level 3: 800
Level 4: 1000
Level 5: 1200

Reserves: Reserves are based on your population, infrastructure, and industry. Points allowed are based on standing military points, but using the following values instead of the Standing Military Value. Once the reserves run out, you must pay double normal cost for new additions. If you spend more than double your reserves value, you then pay triple, and so on.

Army Reserves: Population
Air Force Reserves: Infrastructure
Naval Reserves: Industry

-Army (All units can have one upgrade apiece)
Infantry 5pt
Guard Infantry 15pt
Mounted Infantry 8pt
Cavalry 10pt
Motorized Infantry 15pt
Tank (light) 20pt
Tank (heavy) 40pt

Upgrades:
Artillery 3pt
Siege Artillery 5pt
Engineers 3pt
Guards 5pt
Light Tank 5pt
Heavy Tank 10pt

-Air Force (Fighters and Bombers can have one upgrade apiece, Zeppelins may have two)
Fighter Group (48 planes) 20pt (Air Attack: High, Ground Attack: Low, Range: Low)
Bomber Group (48 planes) 40pt (Air Attack: Medium, Ground Attack: Medium, Range: Medium)
Zeppelin Group (48 blimps) 60pt (Air Attack: Low, Ground Attack: High, Range: High)

Upgrades:
Long Range 5pt (+ Range)
High Ground Attack 10pt (+Ground Attack)
Airlift 5pt (+Airdroppable Unit, -All Attack, Bomber/Zeppelin only)
Air Defense 10pt (+Air Attack)

-Navy (Escorts may have one upgrade, Cruisers may have two, Battleships may have three, Submarines cannot have any upgrades, a positive upgrade makes the effective increase one step better, and a negative attribute makes it one step worse. No single attribute can be lowered more than twice through upgrades. Battleships can opt to have no penalties for their upgrades, but pay double cost)

Escort: 20pt (Speed: High, Armor: Low, Attack: Low, +sub attack standard)
Cruiser: 50pt (Speed: Medium, Armor: Medium, Attack: Medium)
Battleship: 120pt (Speed: Low, Armor: High, Attack: High)
Submarines: 30pt (Speed: Medium/Low (Surface/Submerged), Armor: Low, Attack: Medium, Can only be attacked with +sub attack options and other submarines when submerged)

Carrier versions of cruisers and battleships can be opted for instead, with carriers able to carry 48, and 96 fighters depending on size, respectively. Carriers have very low attack and very low armor. Wings are purchased separately.

Upgrades:
Scout Vessel 5pt (+speed, -armor or weapons)
Anti-Air 5pt (+AA function, -Surface or sub)
Anti-Sub 10pt (+Sonar, -Attack vs. surface and air, +attack vs. submerged vessels)
Anti-Capital 15pt (+weapons, -speed or armor)
Reinforced Bulkheads 10pt (+armor, -speed or weapons)
Previous Generation (-30% cost, -30% effectiveness on all values) (One step?)

Carrier Wings (Cannot use upgrade options from Air Force):
Fighters (12 Fighters) (5pt)
Bombers (12 Fighters) (10pt)

[rhoenix]

I like this ruleset much better than the ones previously shown, as it is far more concise and sensible.

My preference would be to simplify things further, but this is a good baseline for the game.

[frigidmagi]

How do we get Homeland and Colonial? You say it's an amalgam but don't say how it's done.

Are you using the same scale for population and economics?

What are the point values for reserves you don't list them?

Other then that, I like the system. It's up to y'all however, if you rather stick with the old one, we will.

[Hotfoot]

How do we get Homeland and Colonial? You say it's an amalgam but don't say how it's done.

Homeland is just Population + Industry + Infrastructure + Economy. Colonial is something you put points into. On that note, I should clarify: You put points into the following:

Population
Industry
Infrastructure
Economy
Colonial
Military

That's six things to put points into. We can keep the 3 average system, meaning we get 18 points to spend. Alternatively, we could make it 20 points to make it so we don't have any "purely average" nations, but I leave that up to everyone else.

So, for example, using the proposed system, let's say I build the USA, as it is now.

3 Population
4 Industry
3 Infrastructure
3 Economy
2 Colonial
3 Military

Homeland: 13 (3+4+3+3)

While that might not be how I ultimately end up building the nation (especially if I have another two points to spend from a 20 point buy), it's a good example. The homeland score right now is mostly a basic measure of how built up my nation is overall. As Industry and Infrastructure get attacked, and as population is depleted through the course of a war, it will go down to show the ravages of war on a nation.

Are you using the same scale for population and economics?

Population, yes, I think that should work. Economics is a different system, since it behaves in a different way from the old economics system.

What are the point values for reserves you don't list them?

I'm using the Standing Military Points, but since you don't pay half (or pay double, depending on how you want to look at it), it runs out quite a bit faster. Basically, if you've got a Population of 4, you have 1,000 points of Army Reserves before you've got to pay extra for your units. If you have Infrastructure of 2, you have 600 points of Air Force Reserves before you start paying extra, and so on.

[Hadrianvs]

I don't like Hotfoot's system, I thought the older one was finally comming together into something useable. This is something completely out of the blue and I'm having trouble making heads or tails of it, nor do I care to learn it anew.

[rhoenix]

I don't like Hotfoot's system, I thought the older one was finally comming together into something useable. This is something completely out of the blue and I'm having trouble making heads or tails of it, nor do I care to learn it anew.

I was near dropping out of the game because of the previous one, due to its complexity.

To me, Hotfoot's system cuts right to the heart of the essentials of having a nation, allowing all the rest to be in how one uses them. I don't care about spending hours looking up or making ships in some program to have such tonnage or something, for instance. I simply do not have the time or the interest to devote to such details for something that's supposed to be a form of enjoyable relaxation.

[Hotfoot]

I don't like Hotfoot's system, I thought the older one was finally comming together into something useable. This is something completely out of the blue and I'm having trouble making heads or tails of it, nor do I care to learn it anew.

It's hardly out of the blue. I've given the link in the chat before and once before on this forum. I've mentioned it several times and my Naval system that I posted earlier was drawn wholesale from an earlier version. It's also functionally very similar to the old system, but with several overcomplicated bits removed.

The one thing I know I will need to reword is the Economic/Trade system, as it is a bit wordy and not quite direct enough, though it does illustrate the point well enough on its own, it could be clearer.

However, if you have specific issues, rather than a blanket condemnation, I'm more than willing to listen. I've made numerous changes since the original version, many at Steve's suggestion.

[Hadrianvs]

I don't care about spending hours looking up or making ships in some program to have such tonnage or something, for instance. I simply do not have the time or the interest to devote to such details for something that's supposed to be a form of enjoyable relaxation.

That level of complexity had just recently been rightly eliminated from the old system.

[rhoenix]

That level of complexity had just recently been rightly eliminated from the old system.

We have different opinions, then.

[Hadrianvs]

However, if you have specific issues, rather than a blanket condemnation, I'm more than willing to listen. I've made numerous changes since the original version, many at Steve's suggestion.

Put simply, I don't "get it". I can't be any more specific that that. The old one always seemed clear as day to me, and this one I read it over and over and I come to the same conclusion, "Whet the hell is that thing?"

[Hadrianvs]

We have different opinions, then.

Difference of opinion? We just switched to a system where you buy ships ships by class, completely bypassing the tonage issue!

[rhoenix]

We just switched to a system where you buy ships ships by class, completely bypassing the tonage issue!

That was but one example.

I'm not saying that Hotfoot's system there is perfect, as it could use some adjusting still. However it works excellently as a concise point-value based system, while allowing for growth.

[Hotfoot]

However, if you have specific issues, rather than a blanket condemnation, I'm more than willing to listen. I've made numerous changes since the original version, many at Steve's suggestion.

Put simply, I don't "get it". I can't be any more specific that that. The old one always seemed clear as day to me, and this one I read it over and over and I come to the same conclusion, "Whet the hell is that thing?"

I feel like I've walked into a Mathematician's house and stumped them with simple arithmetic after they've been nose-deep in number theory for years.

I find it difficult to believe that you followed the old system with perfect clarity and simply cannot understand something that is essentially the same system, stripped down, cleaned up, and clarified. Believe me when I say that I took pains to make this system recognizable and similar enough to the existing system that most anyone could follow what I was doing. If I had been given free reign to make something from scratch, it would be very different indeed. I would encourage you to compare and contrast the two systems and see what objective differences exist and how you feel about the changes. It shouldn't take too long, neither system at this point is that lengthy.

[Charon]

Here is a somewhat cleaned up version with several suggestions made by others so far. Tell me what you think.

1930's STGOD Rules

Homeland
This is more an amalgam of Population, Infrastructure, Industry, and Economy than its own score. It shows the relative value of the land you have. It is used for pre-requisite calculations for technology and so forth. This value goes down as combat damages or destroys parts of the nation, attacking nations can add the subtracted value in certain circumstances. In the event of espionage in R&D, this value will be used to provide a baseline to work with.

I kind of like this idea, the only minor niggle I can think of is "What does having a Homeland of 13 mean?"

Colonial
Colonies allow for improved trade across the globe as well as remote military bases and ports for armies of the parent nation, but they are not as developed as the parent nation. Treat all colonial territories as having an Infrastructure of one step below the nation's overall infrastructure rating (Alternatively, Colony rating). Also, as long as the colonies remain happy and free, they provide a trade bonus equal to their rating to the parent nation.

You're gonna have to get into some details on what exactly a "trade bonus" is. I assume that Colonial will use the same basic point value that the current system is using? Including the bonuses?

Population
High population nations are able to throw more men into the fray, increasing the numbers on the ground. A higher population affects army reserves.

Economy
Economy affects trade, and how well the government can improve their war effort in times of emergency. Higher economies allow for increased wartime production and sustaining the production itself for longer. Also, the Economic rating is used when determining trade relations. (Trade rule: Must maintain a trade route for 1 turn before trade benefits kick in. Trade is determined by multiples of your nation's economy value. To get +1 Economy, you must maintain trade equal to your economy rating (If you have economy 5, you must trade with at least a +5 rating nation, multiple trade agreements can be added together, so a 2 economy and 3 economy nation count as 5 trade relations as long as both are maintained. You can only effectively double your economy by trade. Note that for a 5 economy nation, that would involve 25 points of trade in order to achieve)

Note that if one's Colonial score is higher than their Economy score, they do not get a bonus to trade unless they have at least one active trade agreement.

When in wartime production, you choose how much economy to sacrifice for military purposes. Each level gives you +25% and once the production is finished, the economy remains lowered for a number of turns equal to the total commitment of sacrifice. If your economy is lower than your population, you are considered to have entered rationing (if this is the norm, consider penalties for happiness/loyalty) and will be faced with general dissent after a number of years (turns?) equal to your normal economy rating.

I kind of understand this. Trade gets weird, you say you need to trade with an equal number of points to get a +1 to your economy. Then you say you'd need 25 points of trade and that it would double your economy. Why does the thing with colonies and not getting a trade bonus work?

Industry (Industry Level 1 should be able to produce escorts and a few cruisers, light infantry and fighters reasonably well, and support a little beyond that. Industry Level 3 should be able to maintain construction of light mechanized, fighters and bombers, and up to a battleship with support. Level 5 should be able to build all heavy attack from all options and rearm depleted units well)

Level 1: 200 points (yearly, 50 points per season)
Level 2: 300 points (yearly, 75 points per season)
Level 3: 400 points (yearly, 100 points per season)
Level 4: 500 points (yearly, 125 points per season)
Level 5: 600 points (yearly, 150 points per season)

Industry can also be used to increase industry and infrastructure, with the cost being spent over the course of at least a year. Costs are as follows:

1->2: 150pt
2->3: 200pt
3->4: 250pt
4->5: 300pt

Seems pretty good, though we may want to hash out the exact details on points. I do have a question, would a high enough Economy give discounts on raising your Infrastructure and Industry? After all it's a lot easier to industrialize when the money is flowing.

Infrastructure
Allows for fast resupply to the fronts in territory you control, troop mobilization, and for forward bases in colonial holdings, is a primary resource for Airpower Reserves.

Seems very much the same as it is in the old system.

Military
Standing Military:
Pre-Game Military Units Cost Half normal, points can be spent as the player desires, but using a solid combined arms doctrine is highly recommended.

Level 1: 400
Level 2: 600
Level 3: 800
Level 4: 1000
Level 5: 1200

So I could buy Infantry at 2 (or 3) points rather than 5 for game start?

Reserves: Reserves are based on your population, infrastructure, and industry. Points allowed are based on standing military points, but using the following values instead of the Standing Military Value. Once the reserves run out, you must pay double normal cost for new additions. If you spend more than double your reserves value, you then pay triple, and so on.

Army Reserves: Population
Air Force Reserves: Infrastructure
Naval Reserves: Industry

Here you've sort of lost me. These are the troops I have on stand-by and they cost double to replenish? Or these are the troops that can be turned into regular troops and after they're gone I'll have to pay double? Also, what rating turns into what in terms of reserves? A population of 3 would mean how many Army reserves?

-Army (All units can have one upgrade apiece)
Infantry 5pt
Guard Infantry 15pt
Mounted Infantry 8pt
Cavalry 10pt
Motorized Infantry 15pt
Tank (light) 20pt
Tank (heavy) 40pt

Upgrades:
Artillery 3pt
Siege Artillery 5pt
Engineers 3pt
Guards 5pt
Light Tank 5pt
Heavy Tank 10pt

Just using the old numbers for how many of each we get?

-Air Force (Fighters and Bombers can have one upgrade apiece, Zeppelins may have two)
Fighter Group (48 planes) 20pt (Air Attack: High, Ground Attack: Low, Range: Low)
Bomber Group (48 planes) 40pt (Air Attack: Medium, Ground Attack: Medium, Range: Medium)
Zeppelin Group (48 blimps) 60pt (Air Attack: Low, Ground Attack: High, Range: High)

Upgrades:
Long Range 5pt (+ Range)
High Ground Attack 10pt (+Ground Attack)
Airlift 5pt (+Airdroppable Unit, -All Attack, Bomber/Zeppelin only)
Air Defense 10pt (+Air Attack)

-Navy (Escorts may have one upgrade, Cruisers may have two, Battleships may have three, Submarines cannot have any upgrades, a positive upgrade makes the effective increase one step better, and a negative attribute makes it one step worse. No single attribute can be lowered more than twice through upgrades. Battleships can opt to have no penalties for their upgrades, but pay double cost)

Escort: 20pt (Speed: High, Armor: Low, Attack: Low, +sub attack standard)
Cruiser: 50pt (Speed: Medium, Armor: Medium, Attack: Medium)
Battleship: 120pt (Speed: Low, Armor: High, Attack: High)
Submarines: 30pt (Speed: Medium/Low (Surface/Submerged), Armor: Low, Attack: Medium, Can only be attacked with +sub attack options and other submarines when submerged)

Carrier versions of cruisers and battleships can be opted for instead, with carriers able to carry 48, and 96 fighters depending on size, respectively. Carriers have very low attack and very low armor. Wings are purchased separately.

Upgrades:
Scout Vessel 5pt (+speed, -armor or weapons)
Anti-Air 5pt (+AA function, -Surface or sub)
Anti-Sub 10pt (+Sonar, -Attack vs. surface and air, +attack vs. submerged vessels)
Anti-Capital 15pt (+weapons, -speed or armor)
Reinforced Bulkheads 10pt (+armor, -speed or weapons)
Previous Generation (-30% cost, -30% effectiveness on all values) (One step?)

Carrier Wings (Cannot use upgrade options from Air Force):
Fighters (12 Fighters) (5pt)
Bombers (12 Fighters) (10pt)

I'm not certain, were carriers any easier to make (which would be a cost reduction for building) or does carrying planes take care of that?

[Hotfoot]

I kind of like this idea, the only minor niggle I can think of is "What does having a Homeland of 13 mean?"

It's meant largely as a placeholder in case we put in things for research and espionage, should we need rules for those, but objectively, it's a measure of how built up your homeland is. The scale of the cities, the frequency of the factories, and so on. Other than that, it's a relative health scale, if you will.

You're gonna have to get into some details on what exactly a "trade bonus" is. I assume that Colonial will use the same basic point value that the current system is using? Including the bonuses?

There are no bonuses to anything in this system unless I specifically outline them.

Trade basically works like this:
Take my example build of the USA from above (we'll only need Economy and Colonial for this).

Economy 3
Colonial 2

Now, let's say I want to trade with a small nation with a poor economy, Spain, with Economy 1. I also get a +2 bonus from having a Colonial Rating of 2. Here's how my trade would appear from my end:

Trade relations:
Spain (1)
Colonial (2*)

Total: 3

Since my total trade is equal to my Economic rating, I get a +1 economy, for an effective economy of 4.

Now, let's assume that instead of trading with Spain, I trade with a powerhouse like England, with an Economy of 4:

Trade Relations:
England (4)
Colonial (2*)

Total: 6

Under the proposed system, that would net me a +2, since it effectively doubles my base economy score.

I kind of understand this. Trade gets weird, you say you need to trade with an equal number of points to get a +1 to your economy. Then you say you'd need 25 points of trade and that it would double your economy. Why does the thing with colonies and not getting a trade bonus work?

25 points to double your economy from an economy of 5, as per the example I listed above. I knew I was going to have to clarify that. As far as colonies and the trade bonus, the colonies by themselves should not give a bonus to economy just by simply being higher. That limit is put in to ensure that trade relations are used to boost economy, because otherwise colonies are free economy points and economy can be left to rot.

Seems pretty good, though we may want to hash out the exact details on points. I do have a question, would a high enough Economy give discounts on raising your Infrastructure and Industry? After all it's a lot easier to industrialize when the money is flowing.

I doubt a discount would be needed, a high enough economy gives enough of a bonus by being able to double (or more) your industrial production. Giving a bonus on top of that seems unnecessary.

Seems very much the same as it is in the old system.

Not much to change really, it's pretty straightforward, you can reinforce and move troops faster in your own territory. The only major change is that it's the source of Air Force Reserves.

So I could buy Infantry at 2 (or 3) points rather than 5 for game start?

Yes, and I'd go for 2, just because Infantry aren't exactly hard to have lots of.

Here you've sort of lost me. These are the troops I have on stand-by and they cost double to replenish? Or these are the troops that can be turned into regular troops and after they're gone I'll have to pay double? Also, what rating turns into what in terms of reserves? A population of 3 would mean how many Army reserves?

I was sure I had an example, but a population of 3 means you have 800 points of army reserves. Basically that means that you can build 800 points of infantry after game start before your nation starts running low on things needed for your various branches. After the first 800 points, you pay double for your army units.

Basically, for reserves, you refer to the standing military chart for points, but use the relevant reserves attribute instead of the standing military attribute.

Just using the old numbers for how many of each we get?

I based all the ground warfare stuff on the old numbers, I should have specified, but yeah, that's pretty much the old system with the only really new bit being the mechanized division.

I'm not certain, were carriers any easier to make (which would be a cost reduction for building) or does carrying planes take care of that?

I put their cost at the same since even with the improved naval AA of the setting, Carriers are pretty badass, and since we don't exactly have upkeep costs in the game, I figure you're pretty much paying for their constant supply needs as well. It can be altered if we think we need cheaper carriers though.

[Steve]

Is the whole trade thing necessary? This was an era that, without WWI, would have a globalized economy, arguably the first globalized economy. You might have senior trading partners but your goods or resources could end up anywhere.

For Industry, is it going to function like currency? As in, I spend 120 points one quarter to build a battleship and that's all I need to concern myself with? Or is it a case where it acts like Industrial Capacity from Hearts of Iron and represents a cap of points one can be expending at any given time?

As for the Reserves system, just what is your intention with it? Representing a realistic manpower cap? What about options to expand them, since that's what countries could do and did do at times (call up more draftees/conscripts in the new year than the last, etc.)? Also, I imagine fixing Air to Infrastructure reflects availability of air fields with proper road access for supplies and Industry for Navy to reflect the industrial output and capability to keep ships properly fitted out?

[Cynical Cat]

Can't say I'm in favor of the trade modifiers. As mentioned, its a global economy. Trade should already be assumed to be taken into account by the economy and colony ratings.

[Hotfoot]

Can't say I'm in favor of the trade modifiers. As mentioned, its a global economy. Trade should already be assumed to be taken into account by the economy and colony ratings.

Except that there are two problems with this assumption. One is that colonies have anything to do with economy mechanically, which they do not under any interpretation of the system, unless you count those silly bonuses that didn't matter until you hit above level 3, making levels 1 and 2 utterly worthless save for prerequisites, which got to be extremely complicated and unnecessary.

Meanwhile, one of the primary uses of submarines (and thusly one of the biggest reasons to include them in the game) was not for pitched naval battles, for which they objectively are not worth much, but rather for disrupting trade lanes and forcing smaller naval conflicts between submarines and convoy escorts.

Mechanically, there's no reason to do this because there's no way to attack economy without some sort of trade mechanic.

Additionally, without a specific trade mechanic, there's no reason to enter into trade agreements with other nations. Trade is meaningless and there's no reason to enter negotiations with anyone else outside of pure military support.

As far as the arguments for a globalized economy, that's bull, pure and simple. Battle lines have been drawn, several nations are likely still isolationist in nature, or just coming out of such a phase, the idea that everyone's happily trading with everyone is just silly. More to the point, what happens when a massive war breaks out and the global economy falls to pieces? There's nothing to mechanically handle such an event. Such short-sightedness can really sneak up on the game and kick it square in the jimmy.

The reserves system is essentially a limit to how much you can expand your military forces. Note that with Air Force and Industry, since you can expand those values, you can get a modest expansion in your reserves value. The only sticking point is population, since we can't realistically increase population in the scope of this game.

The limit is supposed to represent how easily you can expand your forces, period. Once you go past that limit, you run into difficulties, however you want to describe them. Draft-dodgers, protests, work shutdowns, or just plain running out of materials to make their weapons with and so forth. For Air Force and Navy, well, for Air Force, planes of the time were commonly built by the same companies that made automobiles and other such things, and heavy industry is the only aspect that can put together the massive ships of the day.

As far as the time it takes to build units, I didn't put that in yet, but given that only Industry 4 and 5 nations could even hope to build a 120 point battleship in one quarter base, and that's with ignoring all other production period, it seemed less than urgent to force multiple season production values. However, if you want to force people to spend at least one year making battleships, we can institute a hard limit of 30 points per season on any project. This makes bombers and zeppelins have turnarounds of 6 months, while most other things can be made in 3 months. The downside is that it means it will take years to increase infrastructure and industry, unless we make those work on a different scale.

[Cynical Cat]

Of course there's a way to attack other nations economically without a trade mechanic. Blockading ports, sinking ships, capturing territory, cutting off land routes, etcetera all works just fine without a trade stat. We have negotiation and a GM to manage that just like every other aspect of war. Even with a number of major powers being the enemy, that just still leaves the other half of the planet.

We don't need it. It's an unnecessary complication.

[frigidmagi]

I'm going to step in and say it takes two build sessions (read 8 game months or 4 weeks real life) to build even a rifle division in game. There isn't gonna be a vote on this.

Simply put even infantry divisions don't appear out of thin air in 2 to 4 months. It requires time to get the officers, NCOs, equipment and lodgings for them, as well as taking several months to train the new troops (let me put it this way, Marine Boot Camp? 3 months. Marine School of Infantry? 2 Months. For non-infantry MOS you'll spend a similar time, combat engineer school was about 2.5 months). So to create a new Marine Division assuming the base, equipment, NCO's and Officers magically appeared from thin air, you would still need 5 to 6 months.

Because of this I am ruling the need for two build sessions before you can deploy a new infantry unit, now you don't need to pay for anything all up front. You can pay some of the cost in the 1st build session and the rest on the 2nd, or strech it out to 3 or 4 build sessions if you want.

Battleships will take longer. I'm thinking 4 build sessions (that is to say a year and 4 months in game, 8 weeks in real life).

[rhoenix]

Because of this I am ruling the need for two build sessions before you can deploy a new infantry unit, now you don't need to pay for anything all up front. You can pay some of the cost in the 1st build session and the rest on the 2nd, or strech it out to 3 or 4 build sessions if you want.

Battleships will take longer. I'm thinking 4 build sessions (that is to say a year and 4 months in game, 8 weeks in real life).

Works for me. Can we get a chart for how long it takes to create each new arbitrary military unit?

Moreover, are those build times considered optimal, thus possibly increasing build times based on factors of manufacturing or economics?