Transformers: World War II

[General Havoc]

I have to agree with Charon on this one. Those very weaknesses did not stop Deathstrike from being the destroyer of worlds in the last game, and given that power levels in general are considerably lower this time 'round, I don't think Deathstrike is appropriate as is.

[Cynical Cat]

Let me reply to the critiques.

1) Deathstrike, despite claims to the contrary, was never an unstoppable killing machine in the previous game. He had the attitude of an unstoppable killing machine. Going against Chimera, for example, got him utterly trashed and that was with the help of a powerful triple changer.

2) Deathstrike has one gun, as opposed to the multiples packed by several characters. It's a nice gun, but prone to overheating. Built in weakness. He's not the only 'bot with missiles.

3) He was never fully repaired in the previous game and repair is going to be harder in this game. So yeah, it counts as a weakness.

4) His need for a total rebuild is not his only weakness. He's an energy hog and not a very maneuverable flyer. The last in particular is easy to exploit, hell I have him being trashed because of it in his backstory.

5) Stephanie can be used against him. In fact I expect her to be used against him.

[Charon]

Let me reply to the critiques.

1) Deathstrike, despite claims to the contrary, was never an unstoppable killing machine in the previous game. He had the attitude of an unstoppable killing machine. Going against Chimera, for example, got him utterly trashed and that was with the help of a powerful triple changer.

2) Deathstrike has one gun, as opposed to the multiples packed by several characters. It's a nice gun, but prone to overheating. Built in weakness. He's not the only 'bot with missiles.

And will it still be prone to overheating if Deathstrike gets fixed? And what are the consequences of it overheating? Do you just need to let it cool for a few seconds? Do you need to take it apart and fix it to get it working again?

3) He was never fully repaired in the previous game and repair is going to be harder in this game. So yeah, it counts as a weakness.

It frankly didn't seem to be much of a weakness in the previous game either. Your armor seemed to be as good as any bot that wasn't working on scraps, which makes me wonder how good it was supposed to be.

4) His need for a total rebuild is not his only weakness. He's an energy hog and not a very maneuverable flyer. The last in particular is easy to exploit, hell I have him being trashed because of it in his backstory.

I have no problem with those weaknesses, hence why I didn't bring them up.

5) Stephanie can be used against him. In fact I expect her to be used against him.

Yes. But I have a question for you. If Stephanie dies, what will be Deathstrike's course of action? His ties of honor to the humans will be severed and frankly, I was always mildly surprised that Deathstrike didn't return to Megatron.

[Cynical Cat]

And will it still be prone to overheating if Deathstrike gets fixed? And what are the consequences of it overheating? Do you just need to let it cool for a few seconds? Do you need to take it apart and fix it to get it working again?

Its overheating problems are worse in his current condition, but they'll remain a problem if he's fully restored. Also detailed in my backstory. If he pushes it a little over the line then he just needs to let it cool. A lot over and he slags the components.

It frankly didn't seem to be much of a weakness in the previous game either. Your armor seemed to be as good as any bot that wasn't working on scraps, which makes me wonder how good it was supposed to be.

I shattered my weapon arm hitting Chimera. I took severe hits later in that same fight from Buzzsaw. DS was initially thinking of less damage from those hits, by the way. After that I got an armour rebuild, but other components remained damaged. And again, not my only weakness.

Yes. But I have a question for you. If Stephanie dies, what will be Deathstrike's course of action? His ties of honor to the humans will be severed and frankly, I was always mildly surprised that Deathstrike didn't return to Megatron.

Depends on the circumstances of her death obviously. But his obligation to her does not end with her death. If the Decepticons kill her then he'll continue to fight them. As a hostage, she can be used to twist him like a pretzel.

[General Havoc]

1) Deathstrike, despite claims to the contrary, was never an unstoppable killing machine in the previous game. He had the attitude of an unstoppable killing machine. Going against Chimera, for example, got him utterly trashed and that was with the help of a powerful triple changer.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there, Cyncat. The fact that Chimera beat him doesn't change that he was an extremely powerful character, moreso, I felt, than any other by a fair margin. But even if that were not the case, the power level on display so far here is considerably less than that of the previous game, and I worry that your character retains his previous power levels.

2) Deathstrike has one gun, as opposed to the multiples packed by several characters. It's a nice gun, but prone to overheating. Built in weakness. He's not the only 'bot with missiles.

Deathstrike has one gun which can fire as a solid state beam, disable circuitry without penetrating armor, and carries missiles, and is powerful at hand to hand combat, and heavily armored, despite the lack of repairs, and flies. The overheating did not become a problem in the last game as I recall, and neither did the energy-hog aspect thereof. I would feel much better if there was a real, not a circumstantial and therefore ignorable, weakness applied.

3) He was never fully repaired in the previous game and repair is going to be harder in this game. So yeah, it counts as a weakness.

Circumstantial weaknesses are notoriously easy to abuse, even by accident. If he was never fully repaired in the previous game, I'd hate to see what he was supposed to look like in full form. Despite his "lack" of maneuverability, he never had any trouble blasting air targets out of the sky as far as I could tell, and still had enough armor to take very substantial punishment. I do not think this counts as a sufficient weakness to compensate for the strengths on display, but that's just my view.

4) His need for a total rebuild is not his only weakness. He's an energy hog and not a very maneuverable flyer. The last in particular is easy to exploit, hell I have him being trashed because of it in his backstory.

So long as these things actually have an effect in-game, and are not forgotten about, then I'm all right with the idea, but armored, well-armed, flying, super-gun-weilding death machines are pretty hard for me to swallow, even with the idea that he needs a lot of energy.

5) Stephanie can be used against him. In fact I expect her to be used against him.

I don't really know how this stuff works, but I would call this a character point, not a weakness. Nevertheless, it's not a bad idea.

[Cynical Cat]

I have to disagree about power levels in the previous game. Everyone's talking vague impressions, but the only evidence that has been presented is by me.

Deathstrike has one gun. Lady T has five and one of them is a cool cannister gun that can have specialty ammo for various occasions. It has a good punch, but it's not intended to be a super gun. A cool high powered rifle is more of the intent. It has limitations and it isn't a death wand. It fires at high power, it pushes overheat. It fires on continuous beam and it pushes overheat. These weaknesses are as real and as circumstantial as any other.

Deathstrike is strong, but not fast nor extraordinary skilled in hand to hand combat. He also doesn't have any weapons. His ability in this area is limited.

He engaged in three ariel fights in the previous game. One was a head to head bout with Thundercracker. Second was having Sixshot fly rings around him, shoot Hornet, and then fly away ignoring him. I never understood why DS didn't have Sixshot blow me away instead of Hornet. Third time was wrestling with B4's character. I also trashed a bunch of Chinese headmasters but everyone did that. Deathstrike's ariel combat record is, on balance, not that impressive.

He's the TF equivalent of an A-10. Strafing ground guys, he does a good job. Going after a shuttle, he does a good job. Dogfight with rhoenix's character and he's in trouble.

[General Havoc]

No, Cyncat, nobody has presented any evidence at all. That's the problem. I am asking for specificities. I believed that Deathstrike was too powerful in the previous game. The fact that you did not believe this does not change that I believed he was too powerful, nor do statements like "you're not providing evidence". I don't need to 'provide evidence', I'm stating what I felt then and what I feel now.

Give me some relative sense of what we're talking about here. Cavalier has a single big gun, and some smaller rockets. How powerful is your big gun relative to his? How powerful are those missiles you said you have? Are they guided? What kind of range do they have? How powerful are they when they strike an enemy? My rockets, as an example, are both unguided and short range, as they tend to spiral off in random directions at anything beyond a hundred yards or so, and useless against armored targets except in mass numbers. My main gun on the other hand is very powerful, can penetrate even heavily armored targets, fires slugs that can be changed out as the situation warrants, and so on. Lady T does have five guns, but several of them are anti-personnel only, and none of them are anything close to as powerful as my main gun.

You said you were heavily armored. How armored is heavily armored? Is that relative to other airplanes, or to ground bots? What would happen if you got hit by, say, AAA fire of various sorts? Or attacked by German fighters? A-10s (and similar period planes like the IL-2) are famous for being able to take a lot of punishment.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be well armored or have a big gun. I'm saying I'd like to know how big we are talking here, because I'd rather not be surprised if it turns out you have air-to-air guided missiles or that your frame can sustain direct artillery strikes. Give me some relative base points to wrap my view of this thing around, and then perhaps I will agree with you that it's not overpowered.

[Cynical Cat]

I have presented evidence. I addressed specific complaints with incidents from the previous game that contradicted them. Obviously you have your feelings and I have mine, but I directly addressed and refuted complaints about my air to air performance, for example.

Most of my missiles are Earth tech. The Cybertronian ones are guided armor piercers, but he has only Earth-tech reloads. I'm not going to directly address durability because TF durability varies from source to source. I'm not sure what DS is using as a baseline. Two thirds of Deathstrike's armour is heavy Cybertronian plate. The other third is the best material he's been able to improvise with human help. How tough is that? In some materials Megatron can laugh off anything short of nuke strike. In others heavy arty lays a hurting on him. It depends on how tough Cybertronians are in game, but Deathstrike is definitely vulnerable to human weapons as is, however tough Cybertronians end up being.

Deathstrike's gun is a high powered laser that's effective against heavily armoured targets. That's reasonable for only having one gun and limitations on that gun to boot. Ionization effects are included because that's what x-ray lasers do. It's not supposed to be an uber death ray, just a high powered gun. And it certainly isn't going to be the equal of your main gun in the state he's starting in. When he's in tip top condition it's going to be roughly equal.

[General Havoc]

Earth tech has no real 'missiles', not as of 1940. The rockets I use are essentially Nebelwerfer rockets, and even those are in their infancy (hence the range and accuracy problems). Guided armor piercing missiles are not a small thing. They utterly negate all potential weaknesses that I can envision due to hostile aircraft, ground threats, or largely anything else. I appreciate of course that he has only one load of the good stuff before falling back on whatever the humans can provide (and again, I'm not sure what they can provide), but what does that loadout consist of? Are we talking 2 missiles or 20? That's not a minor addition.

I know of course that durability varies from source to source, but I am asking you to address it anyway, relative to the other players and Cybertronians that will be running about. There are some materials where Megatron can survive tactical nuclear weapons, and some where a mere bazooka can damage him, but in all materials, Optimus Prime can take more of a beating than Wheelie. Where does he fall in relation to everyone else? Is he heavily armored by the standards only of fliers? Or also of ground bots? You mentioned heavy armor in both forms. That's not a common facet of fliers, even of bombers.

Personally, my suggestion would be to reduce the armor and either drop the missiles entirely or replace them with something else (bombs or even generic "munitions stanchions"). As it stands you're going to be an armored, flying starfighter-speed bomber, the sort of thing which will have no threats to it, able to largely engage or not at will. Lack of maneuverability is no handicap when you can simply move faster than any fighter that the Germans can deploy, and all but a literal handful of Cybertronians. Well armored, well armed, flying, and fast, is a very very powerful combination in its own right, no matter how you dress it up with maneuverability problems or limited munitions. I do not see how you have to add guided, armor-piercing missiles to the list, no matter how small the quantities.

[Cynical Cat]

Say about 4 Cybertronian missiles and eight advanced Earth tech rockets. As for durability, he's a big, well armoured 'bot, but he's no tank. Since 1/3 of his armour is human tech plate, he's comparatively vulnerable.

As for firepower, rhoenix is packing four guns in two turrets and missiles. I'm packing one good gun and missiles, so I'm not seeing a problem. He's also a hand to hand combat expert with augmented punches and I'm merely good at it. If he's acceptable, so am I. He can certainly outrun all human fighters as well.

And as for Stephanie being used against Deathstrike being a "character trait", why don't you reread what you posted as Cavalier's biggest weakness. If overconfidence counts, Deathstrike's issues count as well. There's also the little detail that Deathstrike has no disguise form. His starfighter form is recognizable as being Cybertronian.

[Dark Silver]

The problem for Deathstrike this time around, is that he doesn't have access to Autobot bases to repair at. Actually, aside from the very limited resources at Coldstaph.....

None of you do. You have the ability to get repaired only so much as materials and knowledge of the humans/Autobots around you have....and for the Humans none of them are repair specialist.

There is no rachet, definatly no CR chambers...most of the armor available for patchwork is human tech, no real cybertronian metals. This time around, Deathstrike is excessively crippled by his weaknesses. While the Energy Hog thing may not be a massive problem, it'll be a problem as you don't have ready access to Energon rechargers as often as you did last game.

So yes, in this instance, in this game, Deathstrike's weaknesses actually make themselves as weaknesses. He won't be getting Cybertronian quality repairs - if he's allowed access to some of the autobot's stores actually will be allowed to the PC's...Drake can't command them to turn over valuable spares to Deathstrike.

Also realieze that the German's aren't limited to normal prop-driven planes. Decepticon tech would have their Jets pushed ahead in development, so there could be some who in atmosphre, match Deathstrike's speed.

Not to mention the fact of Decepticon flyers themselves.

[LadyTevar]

So, is this part settled? He's weak enough to be in the game?

[Dark Silver]

If I didn't think he was weak enough to be in the game, I wouldn't have allowed him to play.

[Charon]

Since we do not have regular access to cybertron level repair stations in game my complaints are withdrawn.

[General Havoc]

Cavalier has no defense against aircraft, no guided missiles, and does not fly. This, in addition to his overconfidence problems. What's true for you in the sense of armor replacement is going to be true for me as well. I still have reservations about this character as deployed, but DS is running the show, and I'll defer to his judgment here.

[Charon]

At least you guys have replacement parts.

That is a good point, but you can look at it this way, none of you will have easy access to good replacement parts but he's starting out already using sub-par stuff that will only get worse with time and you guys are starting fresh and will likely have first dibs on good replacement parts (Seeing as you aren't dirty traitors).

[Cynical Cat]

Cavalier has no defense against aircraft, no guided missiles, and does not fly. This, in addition to his overconfidence problems. What's true for you in the sense of armor replacement is going to be true for me as well.

All of these complaints apply to rhoenix as well, who is not a despised Decepticon, a martial arts master with augmented punches, and starts the game in good condition. I'm not really that bad. Now Deathstrike will strut around like he's Megatron's gift to all things metal, but that's Deathstrike for you.

[General Havoc]

Hehe, It's like Frostfell with laser cannons...

...

THAT WAS NOT A SUGGESTION, DAMNIT!

[Cynical Cat]

Hehe, It's like Frostfell with laser cannons...

...

THAT WAS NOT A SUGGESTION, DAMNIT!

Please. Only Stephanie is going to be interested in doing kinky things with maple syrup.

[LadyTevar]

Hehe, It's like Frostfell with laser cannons...

...

THAT WAS NOT A SUGGESTION, DAMNIT!

Please. Only Stephanie is going to be interested in doing kinky things with maple syrup.

You had to go there, didn't you.

[Cynical Cat]

Don't lie. You love it.

[Dark Silver]

Unicron Awakens.

Everybody dies.

[Charon]

Well if we're all gonna die we might as well go down making DS want to carve out his own eyes.

[rhoenix]

Well if we're all gonna die we might as well go down making DS want to carve out his own eyes.

Autobot masturbation scene in 5...4...3...2...

[General Havoc]

Well if we're all gonna die we might as well go down making DS want to carve out his own eyes.

Autobot masturbation scene in 5...4...3...2...

*Guts you*