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Well, both Marvel and DC has issued quite many big crossovers lately. Marvel has House of M, Avengers Disassembled, Secret War, and so on, which culminate in Civil War.

DC on the hand, has Identity Crisis, Countdown to Infinite Crisis, Villains United, Omac Project, etc, that reach their climax in Infinite Crisis.

So which one do you think is better? Marvel's, or DC's? Which one do you like more? And why?

As for myself, personally I prefer DC, particularly because titles like Identity Crisis and Villains United have gracefully shown the human side of the comicbook characters (especially how they showed the villains). Also, it seems to me that DC's crossovers has better cohesiveness in the story arc. See, it is Identity Crisis that started it all; the reason behind the events leading to Infinite Crisis is because the JLA mindfucked Dr. Light. For example, I don't think the villains will be too much motivated to join the Secret Society if not for the lobotomy.

Civil War, on the other hand.... Well, my biggest objection is the unmasking of Spider-Man. I just really can't believe that Spidey would risk the safety of Mary Jane and Aunt May --the two people he loves most-- just to support the Superhuman Registration Act. I mean, is Tony Stark really that persuasive?

But then again, that's my opinion. What's yours?

I haven't read both so I can't comment. I gotta say Civil War could have been much more then it was.

I love Civil War and avidly hate DC, except for Neil Gaiman's Sandman series.

I love Civil War and avidly hate DC

Why?

Civil War was shit.

DC completely owned virtually every Marvel storyline in the past three or so years, save Annihilation, with Sinestro Corps War, which was THE SHIT and completely fucking rocked.

Annihilation also fucking rocked, and catapulted Nova and Ronan into the upper tier of comic/sci-fi badasses.

"NO QUARTER! Remember, YOU ARE KREE!!!" - Ronan, leading the Kree flying city counterattack on the Annihilation Wave

"THIS IS FOR NOVA CORPS!!!" - Nova, ripping Annihilus' guts out through his throat.

DC.
Better overall crossovers (The crisis for examples), and even in recent years they've kicked Marvel's ass. (Annihalation, and Conquest aside).

Steve wrote: DC completely owned virtually every Marvel storyline in the past three or so years, save Annihilation, with Sinestro Corps War, which was THE SHIT and completely fucking rocked.

Identity crisis was bad. Avenger's Dissasembled, and House of M and Civil war were worse in what they did to characters.

The Grim Squeaker wrote: Identity crisis was bad. Avenger's Dissasembled, and House of M and Civil war were worse in what they did to characters.

I wasn't even bringing up Identity Crisis, which I mostly liked. Rather, I was saying that Sinestro Corps War alone is better than all of the Marvel crossovers of recent years except Annihilation.

I love marvel for what I like in the characters, I identify with spiderman, I think Tony Stark is a badass, and the coolest hero ever is Captain America just cause he is more bad ass then Samuel L Jackson and Indiana Jones combined

As for DC, well their characters dont vibe so well with me.

Okay, that still doesn't explain why you liked Civil War.

Let me state my position and we can take it from there. I thought Civil War distorted the characters of Spider Man and Iron Man among others. I thought what it did to Dr. Richards was a travesty. What it did to Stark was even worse. Spiderman was a lesser distortion, no one near as bad as One More Day (trust me, you don't want to claim you liked that piece of shit here) but still pretty bad.

You disagree?

Marvel.

They crossed Avengers (plus Spiderman) with IDW: Transformers

frigidmagi wrote:Okay, that still doesn't explain why you liked Civil War.

Let me state my position and we can take it from there. I thought Civil War distorted the characters of Spider Man and Iron Man among others. I thought what it did to Dr. Richards was a travesty. What it did to Stark was even worse. Spiderman was a lesser distortion, no one near as bad as One More Day (trust me, you don't want to claim you liked that piece of shit here) but still pretty bad.

You disagree?

I agree what was done can be seen as wrong but I thought something had to be done to shake up the marvel universe. It was getting stagnant and a lot of fans were complaining from what I understand, I dont like Civil War really as much as what they could have done but I like it more then just letting the universe get stagnant

I'm gonna have to disagree. Shaking things up is not a blanket excuse, nor does the Marvel leadership seem truely interested in really changing things. For Example One More Day in Spiderman.

Also there are plenty of ways to Shake things up that don't invovle throwing away decades of character building. Turning Iron Man into a goose stepper was not "shaking things up" it was lousy writing in my opinion and so on and so forth.

My protests only go deeper in regards to Captain America's treatment. In the pursuit of "shaking things up" they seem to take the position that Bloody MySpace and NASCAR was more important in regards to being American then the ideals Captain America stood for (the infamous interview that led to me refusing to read Captain America comics since) and his murder was so poorly handled that I had to asked if they were letting slash fic writers play in the pool.

Never you mind the bullshit being unleashed on X-Men.

You wanna shake things up? You feel Marvel is getting stagnant? Fine! Well and Good! But do it with some skill and without trashing the character traits that have been built up over decades.

Nor am I against killing characters if the need arises. Of course if I kill a character, he bloody well stays fucking dead. And I try to give the death of a major character some... Dare I say it? Relevance.

In this Marvel's Civil War utterly and completely failed.

So far DC is doing better, but they lost a fuckload of points for the plot of Identity Crisis being fucking stupid (which only comes out at the end, when the mystery is solves so the first comics were good) and for Countdown being totally botched.

52 was really good, up until the last comics.

Sinestro Corps Wars was good, with the exception of the inclusion of Superboy/Superman Prime who isn't necessarily a bad idea but who is consistently handled terribly be DC. The whole "he has exactly identical powers to this universes Kryptonians but can't be affected by this universe's kryptonite" is moronic as is the continuing reluctance to lay a potentially fatal beat down on him by DC heroes when he is literally maiming and killing people right, left, and center. Yes, Countdown was worse for that than the Sinestro Corps.

So DC is ahead, but they've stumbled badly with Countdown. If Marvel can produce some non-sucky crossoevers then I'll have to revaluate.

Steve wrote:

The Grim Squeaker wrote: Identity crisis was bad. Avenger's Dissasembled, and House of M and Civil war were worse in what they did to characters.

I wasn't even bringing up Identity Crisis, which I mostly liked. Rather, I was saying that Sinestro Corps War alone is better than all of the Marvel crossovers of recent years except Annihilation.

I quoted you to show that I agree with ya 100%, boyo ;). (And Annihalation conquest was 90% as good as Annihalation as well ;)).

Cynical Cat wrote:and for Countdown being totally botched.

It wasn' that bad, why they had Darkseid in it...getting beaten up by giant lizard Jimmy. (No, I'm NOT joking). Well, it had the epic fall and redemption of Mary Marvel! (Before she went "Oh, I'm actually going to be bad now" over the space of about 3 panels).

Cynical Cat wrote:52 was really good, up until the last comics.

The penultimate and second dozen or so of the comics were a bit weak, but the final fucking rocked. (You have to admit, the villian was ingenious, even if it was a retcon).

Cynical Cat wrote:So DC is ahead, but they've stumbled badly with Countdown. If Marvel can produce some non-sucky crossoevers then I'll have to revaluate.

They're producing an 8 issue crossover which is retconning the past half decade with "It was all Skrulls". For real.
And I consider Brand New Day a crossover, so, Fuck Marvel :gibblets:

None of Countdown has handled well at all. Certainly not Mary Marvel, not Darkseid or any of the rest of it. Darkseid didn't show up until the end when the comic had long ago buried itself in stupid. Mary Marvel's entire arc was full of stupid. I have to admit I didn't care enough to do anything more than skim the last 20 issues, but they had nothing in them that was worth reading in depth.

52 was good until they decided that Black Adam was evil for doing with his super powers what the US or Russia would have done with nukes if they had been in the same position. The whole comic dives towards the floor at that point, which characterizations being bent to service the plot, and a surprise unveil at the end. You don't have surprise unveils at the end of a series that long. You leave clues so your readers have a chance connect the dots. Sobek's secret was handled in a far superior manner.

Well, I am not trying to defend what Marvel has done in the Civil War, I disagree with most of it, but what I saw was a universe getting stuck in the same old same old stories in and out. I am not saying that things were handled 100% right with the civil war, but I am not saying they were 100% CRAP either.

Mind you also I dont like DC just because the characters dont resonate with me, thats why I prefer marvel. Its a matter of taste here on Marvel vs DC and frankly neither side is going to back down much

To be clear, I'm only talking about the quality of their crossovers. In general Marvel is superior to DC.

What the fuck is it with DC and ape characters anyway?

Jason, it's not the characters we're discussing, it's the quality of writing in the crossovers. I'm not dismissing your opinion of DC characters mind you, just stating it has no bearing on the thread.

As for civil war, I'm hoping shaking things up wasn't your only reason for liking it. Because has I have stated already, shaking things up is no good excuse for ignoring characterization and writing a fairly crappy crossover. Not to mention if you think the universe is getting stagnate you can change things up through simple methods that don't require some completely warping the characters.

I have to say Marvel for the moment.

A friend of mine has me reading the new Thunderbolts. Their running a nice series in Civil War. That and I was a big fan of the Cable and Deadpool series through Civil War.

The Village Idiot wrote:I have to say Marvel for the moment.

A friend of mine has me reading the new Thunderbolts. Their running a nice series in Civil War. That and I was a big fan of the Cable and Deadpool series through Civil War.

Cable& Deadpool, and the Thunderbolt series are not crossover series, but solo titles

Countdown got a bit iffy, though it was certainly entertaining in the last 20 or so issues up to 01, and it got pretty dark as well with the fates of Earth-52 and Earth-51. Final Crisis will be an interesting storyline at least.

Of course, Marvel again outshined a lot of stuff with Annihilation: Conquest. It seems the people in charge of Marvel's "cosmic" properties are far better at their work than the Earth-following writers. And the promo poster for Guardians of the Galaxy is amusing.

Steve wrote:
Of course, Marvel again outshined a lot of stuff with Annihilation: Conquest. It seems the people in charge of Marvel's "cosmic" properties are far better at their work than the Earth-following writers. And the promo poster for Guardians of the Galaxy is amusing.

It's always the good properties that don't get enough attention. Annihilation had third string Marvel characters as the mains and they did a great job with it. On a related note, Nova has one of the best lines ever.

After returning home from fighting the Annihilation Wave he gets attacked by the Thunderbolts and gets a powow with Tony who gives him a big lecture on responsibility and authority so forth and how things have changed. He then asks why Nova's been so out of the loop. Answer? "I was busy saving the entire universe from destruction by yanking Annihilus's insides out of his mouth." Great verbal smack down. (Iron Fist's was also good: My billion dollar megacorp's lawyers are disputing whether or not the law covers me. We have an injunction and we'll see you in court. Have a nice day Tony.)

Cynical Cat wrote:

Steve wrote:
Of course, Marvel again outshined a lot of stuff with Annihilation: Conquest. It seems the people in charge of Marvel's "cosmic" properties are far better at their work than the Earth-following writers. And the promo poster for Guardians of the Galaxy is amusing.

It's always the good properties that don't get enough attention. Annihilation had third string Marvel characters as the mains and they did a great job with it. On a related note, Nova has one of the best lines ever.

After returning home from fighting the Annihilation Wave he gets attacked by the Thunderbolts and gets a powow with Tony who gives him a big lecture on responsibility and authority so forth and how things have changed. He then asks why Nova's been so out of the loop. Answer? "I was busy saving the entire universe from destruction by yanking Annihilus's insides out of his mouth." Great verbal smack down. (Iron Fist's was also good: My billion dollar megacorp's lawyers are disputing whether or not the law covers me. We have an injunction and we'll see you in court. Have a nice day Tony.)

At least Tony gave the T-Bolts a firm talking to in that sequence as well. What gets me is.... they have Norman FRIGGIN' Osborne running the fucking group?! I mean, come on!

Steve wrote:

Cynical Cat wrote:

Steve wrote:
Of course, Marvel again outshined a lot of stuff with Annihilation: Conquest. It seems the people in charge of Marvel's "cosmic" properties are far better at their work than the Earth-following writers. And the promo poster for Guardians of the Galaxy is amusing.

It's always the good properties that don't get enough attention. Annihilation had third string Marvel characters as the mains and they did a great job with it. On a related note, Nova has one of the best lines ever.

After returning home from fighting the Annihilation Wave he gets attacked by the Thunderbolts and gets a powow with Tony who gives him a big lecture on responsibility and authority so forth and how things have changed. He then asks why Nova's been so out of the loop. Answer? "I was busy saving the entire universe from destruction by yanking Annihilus's insides out of his mouth." Great verbal smack down. (Iron Fist's was also good: My billion dollar megacorp's lawyers are disputing whether or not the law covers me. We have an injunction and we'll see you in court. Have a nice day Tony.)

At least Tony gave the T-Bolts a firm talking to in that sequence as well. What gets me is.... they have Norman FRIGGIN' Osborne running the fucking group?! I mean, come on!

Well, everyone involved, including half the group is well aware that it's going to end up a clusterfuck, and are just taking advantage of the situation.
(Norman: "You will capture and destroy Spiderman!"
Songbird:"Steel spider"
N:"Huh? Yes..that's what I said".
S:"No, you said spiderman"
N:"No I...Go and destroy the spider!"
s:"You mean capture and apprehend"
N:"..."[Yes, it's not accurate. Sue me :P).

The most recent issue has him finally going batshit due to his pills being mixed up, and going around thunderbolt mountain in his suit after giving naked monologues and imagining himself as President Goblin.
Go read Thunderbolts :D.