LibriumArcana.Games

Okay I understand each of the ring wraiths were kings before taking up a ring, but were they all bad men?

What were they like before having their souls devoured by those rings?

Most of them aren't even named by Tolkien. The Witch-King of Angmar was a Black Numerion, so he probably was a son of a bitch, but some of them were probably good men at the start. The power, corruption, and the longevity confired by the ring would all take their toll on that.

IIRC, the Rings of Men were made to aid the Kings. They gave a slight influence over men's minds, give them a longer life, and were meant to allow the Kings to rule fairly and justly over their countries in peace and prosperity.

When Sauron took up the One Ring, he corrupted the Nine Rings, turning influence into total control of both Bearer and country. From what I read of the histories, it happened as soon as Sauron set Ring to finger, thus the Nine had no chance to resist.

So, was the WitchKing of Angmar a WitchKing before? Doubtful. After all, the Elves made the Nine Rings and gave them to the Kings of Men. I can't recall if the Nine were the original owners of the Rings, but I doubt the Elves would not have gifted bad rulers with such Powers.

Thus, my theory is that they were not evil to begin with, but decent people who were wishing the best for their people.

LadyTevar wrote:IIRC, the Rings of Men were made to aid the Kings. They gave a slight influence over men's minds, give them a longer life, and were meant to allow the Kings to rule fairly and justly over their countries in peace and prosperity.

When Sauron took up the One Ring, he corrupted the Nine Rings, turning influence into total control of both Bearer and country. From what I read of the histories, it happened as soon as Sauron set Ring to finger, thus the Nine had no chance to resist.

So, was the WitchKing of Angmar a WitchKing before? Doubtful. After all, the Elves made the Nine Rings and gave them to the Kings of Men. I can't recall if the Nine were the original owners of the Rings, but I doubt the Elves would not have gifted bad rulers with such Powers.

Thus, my theory is that they were not evil to begin with, but decent people who were wishing the best for their people.

M'Lady, the LadyTevar, and His Grace, The Frigidmagi, what an honor to meet you. I have lurked for a while, noticing your august presences, and I am honored to finally make your acquaintance with my first post on Librium Arcana. (I know, I'm a noob, and brown-nosing is frowned upon, but hey, I thought I'd get it over with and out of the way!)

About the issue at hand: the ringwraiths. Even though I've read LoTR so many times that I have lost count (I lost count at five), I never paid much attention as to how the ringwraithes (RWs) came to be. What I recall is that Sauron made them--the nine rings--which is the only way he could have any control over said nine rings. He did not make the three Elven rings, but he did assist in their making, hence how he could have influence over them, and why they were hidden from him by the Elves. I definitely recall that he gave the Dwarves their seven rings, and that he gave the nine to the kings of men.

IIRC, he then made the one ring, and poured a significant measure of his power into the one ring when he created it, which makes sense because it would take significant power to control the many other rings.

And what I recall is that the nine kings to whom he gave the rings were not of the most upright character, one flaw they particularly possessed was greed: greed for power and longevity of life. Which is why they were so easily ensorcelled.

But the Elves perceived Sauron's treachery, and hid their three rings of power from him.

As for the seven Dwarf rings, I don't have a clue...I don't remember a thing about what happened to them.

Since I am respectfully reciting a different version on how the RWs came to be than the one espoused by M'Lady, I will gladly do the research in order to answer Frigidmagi's question fully and, more importantly, accurately.

And you may mercilessly beat your most humble servant in the mean time.

frigidmagi wrote:Okay I understand each of the ring wraiths were kings before taking up a ring, but were they all bad men?

What were they like before having their souls devoured by those rings?

I found a quote from the Silmarillion (thank you Wiki people, good info, but your punctuation and grammar bite) which is as follows:

"Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and of the domination of the One which was Sauron's. And they became forever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring, and they entered into the realm of shadows. The Nazgûl were they, the Ringwraiths, the Enemy's most terrible servants; darkness went with them, and they cried with the voices of death" (The Silmarillion: "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age", 346).

Since my copy of the Silmarillion is at the office, I can't check the quote until tomorrow. But I now believe, with relative assuredness, that the answer to His Grace's question is: Yes, Sauraon gave the nine rings to men. And yes, some were good, but no matter how good and decent they were at the beginning, the were all corrupted in the end (of their human existence).

LadyTevar, I will gladly accept any punishment you wish to dole out for my insolence. I know, one should not contradict one's elders, so I do so humbly appologize for my impertinence.

Actually, despite the thread necromancy, you proved my own point.

LadyTevar wrote:Thus, my theory is that they were not evil to begin with, but decent people who were wishing the best for their people.