LibriumArcana.Games

Alright, awhile back I asked which universe had the best Elves, and people generally said Drow, if memory serves. But now I ask the question. Yes, we all know Dark Elves of any variety beat their sun-bathing treehugger cousins in badassness any day of the week. But who among them is greatest? Drow? Tolkienverse Dark Elves? Dark Eldar? Dark Elves from other fantasy settings?

I'm not that knowledgeable about 40K, but from what little I've seen and heard of them, the Dark Eldar look like to be far cooler than the Drow could ever dream of being. How correct is that assumption, and how long before somebody orders an Exterminatus on my ass even speaking the name "Dark Eldar"?

Let's see...

I mostly like Drow/Everquest Dark-Elves... because the style just rocks, really. Ditto for Record of Lodoss War Dark Elves on that note.

Early FR/D&D Drow, before a thousand hacks got their grubby hands on them and turned them into this emo bullshit. The dhaeraow as seen in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: The Drow of the Underdark. Thems is good dark elves.

As for the Eldar... I'm not sure "badass" is the word you're looking for. The Dark Eldar are little more than glorified pirates (not the cool kind) and slavers, bent on Slaaneshite sadomasochism. Good target practice though, they're fairly tricksy.

So the Drow weren't always so pathetic, eh? Wow.

Ra wrote:So the Drow weren't always so pathetic, eh? Wow.

I believe in good, wholesome Lolthites. Seems like everyone and their mother nowadays has some horribly dull non-evil drow.

I believe in good, wholesome Lolthites. Seems like everyone and their mother nowadays has some horribly dull non-evil drow.

My only drow character is an amoral (thus: not really evil, per se) sociopath, does he count as a non-evil drow?

The Poison Elves comic.

A sociopath counts as evil

Warhammer Dark Elves are the coolest evil elves. D&D potrays the drow as reflexively treacherous, petty, short sighted, and with the impulse control of a two year old with Attention Deficiet Disorder. I blame 1) Salvatore and 2) D&D's desire to be at worst PG because drow are R rated material.

A sociopath counts as evil

YAY!

I like customising my campaign settings...

The drow ARE a race of power-hungry sociopaths, with the odd good/not-really-evil drow...

But the MAJORITY are power-hungry, manipulative, and capable of incredible patience. It seems unlikely that the drow, capable of living centuries, would REALLY have a miniscule attention span.

Note that Tolkien's Dark Elves, aside from Eol and Maeglin, were generally not evil; they were merely rather unsocial, preferring to live in their own little corner of Beleriand. And out of necessity, during the great wars of the First Age, they would have joined one side or the other, or been eradicated. If they joined Morgoth (doubtful, extremely doubtful) they would've been wiped out by the other Elves in short order; if they joined the Noldor and Sindar in their fight against Melkor, they may have survived longer, but I expect many (if not all) of them were wiped out in the fall of Beleriand into the sea. After them, about the only Elves that could be called 'dark' would be the Mirkwood Elves, and that only due to where they lived.

Excuse my extreme ignorance of Tolkienverse, but I thought orcs and gobbos were essentially dark elves?

Excuse my extreme ignorance of Tolkienverse, but I thought orcs and gobbos were essentially dark elves?

Nae... they're just orcs.

The Elf story was just bullshit from Peter Jackson if I remember correctly.

Dakarne wrote:

Excuse my extreme ignorance of Tolkienverse, but I thought orcs and gobbos were essentially dark elves?

Nae... they're just orcs.

The Elf story was just bullshit from Peter Jackson if I remember correctly.

You don't. Orcs were made from elves by Sauron's boss, Morgoth.

To be more specific: Orcs are an entirely separate species, forcefully evolved from Elven captives through 'arcane magic' or whatever fantasyobabble it was in the Silmarillion, I forgot the exact terms Tolkien used.

They share some characteristics with Elves-- some immunity to disease (useful given how unclean they are), pointy ears, but that's about it. They're about as closely related to Elves as chimps are to us.

On the other hand, Tolkien did have some 'Dark Elves', being of the first Edain created at the beginning of the world; they were afraid of the Maiar summoning them to Valinor, and hid in the woods. When the Noldor returned, they found various different strains of Elves, the most prominent being the Sindar but a few being the Teleri and Avari (IIRC). Exact details can be found in the appendices of the Silmarillion.

Orcs are an entirely separate species, forcefully evolved from Elven captives through 'arcane magic' or whatever fantasyobabble it was in the Silmarillion, I forgot the exact terms Tolkien used.

Aright...

I've just never read the Silmarillion, so I wouldn't know. And from what I've read of Lord of the Rings' prose and pacing, I don't want to.

That's your choice, naturally, but were I you, before I assert facts from Tolkien I'd at least look for a decent synopsis of the volume in question... in fact... not just Tolkien but any other source that you haven't read. Peter Jackson has a lot of bullshit in his movies, but he *did* get a fair bit of it right... but you won't know the difference if you haven't done a little fact-checking

That's your choice, naturally, but were I you, before I assert facts from Tolkien I'd at least look for a decent synopsis of the volume in question... in fact... not just Tolkien but any other source that you haven't read. Peter Jackson has a lot of bullshit in his movies, but he *did* get a fair bit of it right... but you won't know the difference if you haven't done a little fact-checking

Aye...

I just wish a better writer would reedit Tolkein's work so that it was easier to freaking read. I didn't buy Lord of the Rings to get half-way through the first bloody tome and say... "Oh fuck that."

*I* actually found The Silmarillion an interesting read, even if it reads like a history book. Oddly enough though, I hadn't remembered much about the Mornedhel outside of Maeglin and his despicable father. Thanks for jogging my memory.

The Mornedhel don't figure much in Tolkien at all; Eol and Maeglin were the only two that appeared, IIRC. It's arguable that he was perhaps the *only* Dark Elf, as IIRC (correct me if i'm wrong) he was the sole one until he captured Turgon's daughter and had a child by her. However, if there were more of his kind, he apparently didn't like them as he lived apart under the mountain; he could've very well been a Sindar that came out wrong, so to speak, and turned away from his brethren when they migrated through Beleriand.

Admittedly, I don't have my copy of the Sil at hand, so I can't really attest to that...

Um... Aran... you do realize of course that humans and chimps are so closely related that some people want to put us and them in the same genus right(as stupid as I think that is, in my semi-professional opinion)

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Um... Aran... you do realize of course that humans and chimps are so closely related that some people want to put us and them in the same genus right(as stupid as I think that is, in my semi-professional opinion)

I'm aware of that. That was my point; that even though Orcs and Elves appear very different, genetically they're not that different.

If we count elf equivalents, the Nonmen Erratics from The Prince of Nothing are cool in a very scary way.

Dragonstorm's Ebony Elves were very much a curveball from the norm; they're scholarly, calm, restrained individuals who never fell from grace to serve the Necromancers, and thus are 'good guys' to the dragons and the shapeshifters trying to avoid extermination.

Elheru Aran wrote:To be more specific: Orcs are an entirely separate species, forcefully evolved from Elven captives through 'arcane magic' or whatever fantasyobabble it was in the Silmarillion, I forgot the exact terms Tolkien used.

Actually, the exact term is that it is 'held to be true' by scholars in-universe. Out of universe, the Silmarillion manuscript has 'change this, orcs are not elvish' jotted in the side. Most likely, the idea that orcs were made from elves is an in-universe misconception, with them being something else entirely. So, while Saruman thought it was true, he was probably mistaken. Sauron or Melkor would be the guys to ask.

They share some characteristics with Elves-- some immunity to disease (useful given how unclean they are), pointy ears,

Hey, Tolkien's elves don't necesserily have pointy ears. The strongest argument for that is that the quenya for leaf is similar to the quenya for ear.

but that's about it. They're about as closely related to Elves as chimps are to us.

On the other hand, Tolkien did have some 'Dark Elves', being of the first Edain created at the beginning of the world; they were afraid of the Maiar summoning them to Valinor, and hid in the woods. When the Noldor returned, they found various different strains of Elves, the most prominent being the Sindar but a few being the Teleri and Avari (IIRC). Exact details can be found in the appendices of the Silmarillion.

There were various Moriquendi, but I don't think they're they style that the thread's about. After all, Moriquendi don't raid humans for slaves, making them infinitely cooler than dark elves that do

The Necrontyr Messenger wrote:

Elheru Aran wrote:To be more specific: Orcs are an entirely separate species, forcefully evolved from Elven captives through 'arcane magic' or whatever fantasyobabble it was in the Silmarillion, I forgot the exact terms Tolkien used.

Actually, the exact term is that it is 'held to be true' by scholars in-universe. Out of universe, the Silmarillion manuscript has 'change this, orcs are not elvish' jotted in the side. Most likely, the idea that orcs were made from elves is an in-universe misconception, with them being something else entirely. So, while Saruman thought it was true, he was probably mistaken. Sauron or Melkor would be the guys to ask.

That's interesting. Were there any other notes about how Tolkein was planning on changing the origin of the orcs? It would have taken a little rewriting as, IIRC, orcs were supposedly made from tortured, mutilated elves because Melkor/Morgoth had fallen too low to create new beings anymore (I think he created dragons at first), and could only corrupt ones that were already there (elves to orcs, and fire Maia to balrogs...well, I think those last ones were seduced by power/the Dark Side/that kind of deal, like Sauron was.)

My memory's a bit vague, though. It's been a while since I read the Silmarillion.