Superman vs Emperor Papaltine

[Lord Iames Osari]

Oh, Heir to the Empire. Thrawn is quite possibly even cooler than Vader; I'd just never run across that abbreviation before.

[SirNitram]

Oh, Heir to the Empire. Thrawn is quite possibly even cooler than Vader; I'd just never run across that abbreviation before.

Vader has a better character arc, but Thrawn is an intensely interesting character. I was rather dissatisfied by the ending of the trilogy; it stank of 'Crap, I forgot I needed to kill him' by Zahn.

[The Silence and I]

That assumes a tactical situation of course. If you suggest Palps could be ambushing Sups with hours of foreknowledge then things might play different, as Palps could set things up so he can shoot Sups walking around a corner or something, but that was not my assumption. Further, in a fair tactical situation Sups can likely dodge lightning, and Palps isn't winning if all he does is prevent Sups from harming him with a force wall (which may not survive Sups' direct hits, and wouldn't do much against his heat vision).

Why would he be able to dodge? Palpatine will see the dodge before Superman even thinks of which direction to go. You seem to have a huge lump of solid steel where your brain should be on this issue. He knows the future. You can't dodge because he knows which way you're going to before you've decided.

It's simple, Sups can see the attack and avoid it with the speed he has available to him.* Palps knows the future outcome, and he knows he will miss.

Look at this through Clark's eyes. You see Palps blasting lightning exactly where you were thinking of going, but you're not there yet, and neither is the lightning. You have the option of not walking into glowing blue pain, and you take it. Stop. Rewind. Palps 'now' knows Clark won't walk into his fire, so he aims at the new spot Clark will be in. You, as Clark, see Palps fire where you will be in a moment. You aren't there yet and neither is the lightning. You have the option of not walking into glowing blue pain, and you take it. In fact you stop moving. Stop. Rewind. 'Now' Palps knows you, as Clark, won't move and fires right at you. You see Palps fire blue glowing pain at you, but it hasn't arrived yet, and you have the option to move out of the way, and you take it. Stop. Rewind. (again and again and again)

Against an opponent of Clark's speed and with adequate reaction time Palps is nearly powerless to hit that opponent with any weapon which travels significantly slower than the opponent does.


*I'm making the assumption that force lightning propegates slower than Sups can move; IIRC such lightning is not cee or even remotely close.

[LadyTevar]

Personally, I see no reason for them to even fight. Palpatine's real gift was in manipulation of his enemies so that he profits. Kind alike Lex Luthor, if you think about it, but Lex doesn't have the Force powers that allows Palpy to 'lean' on folks and subtly adjust them to his point of view.

It would be very easy for him to get Supes to talk... the 'I'm an old man' trick worked well on even Yoda, and Supes is known for trying to talk people out of a fight. Palpy could even agree to go with Supes, while quietly explaining how he'd planned to improve the Republic, and it just got out of hand.

In short, the Big Blue Boyscout gets hypnotised (or worse honestly convinced) that Palpy just had the Galaxy's best interests at heart, and Palpy can stab him in the back at his convenience, but not until he has Supes do him a tiny favor.....

[The Silence and I]

Personally, I see no reason for them to even fight. Palpatine's real gift was in manipulation of his enemies so that he profits. Kind alike Lex Luthor, if you think about it, but Lex doesn't have the Force powers that allows Palpy to 'lean' on folks and subtly adjust them to his point of view.

It would be very easy for him to get Supes to talk... the 'I'm an old man' trick worked well on even Yoda, and Supes is known for trying to talk people out of a fight. Palpy could even agree to go with Supes, while quietly explaining how he'd planned to improve the Republic, and it just got out of hand.

In short, the Big Blue Boyscout gets hypnotised (or worse honestly convinced) that Palpy just had the Galaxy's best interests at heart, and Palpy can stab him in the back at his convenience, but not until he has Supes do him a tiny favor.....

I think that is reasonable, but of course the thread doesn't care for talk! This thread wants blood!

[SirNitram]

It's simple, Sups can see the attack and avoid it with the speed he has available to him.* Palps knows the future outcome, and he knows he will miss.

You know, if you end that sentence there, you're just flat out lying. Here's the honest version:

Palp knows the future outcome, and he knows he will miss, if he does not adjust his aim exactly this way.

Superman can weave in a dozen ways, but the nature of precognizance makes it clear that Palpatine will know the end result. He will know where Superman is when the lightning finishes it's advance. That is where the Lightning will earth itself.

This is without bringing up the Movie-level Canon implied, and the G(? It's the lowest level Lucasfilm dubs 'Canon'.)-level explicitly shown ability of Force Lightning to hit no matter how much dodging is going on. It earths itself on the living target. Superman will be that.

[The Silence and I]

It's simple, Sups can see the attack and avoid it with the speed he has available to him.* Palps knows the future outcome, and he knows he will miss.

You know, if you end that sentence there, you're just flat out lying. Here's the honest version:

Palp knows the future outcome, and he knows he will miss, if he does not adjust his aim exactly this way.

So far all you have is talk. Sups can move stupidly fast, even without having precise numbers I've shown how the difference is too great for mere precog to work.

To reword that sentance again:
Palp knows the future outcome, and he knows he will miss, if he does not adjust his aim exactly this way, unfortunately the travel time of his attack is so large his target can always sidestep it no matter his aim.

Another variation:
Palps knows when Clark will punch him, and he knows he will be hit unless he begins to raise a force wall now; unfortunately he also knows Clark will react to any movement he makes and use his speed to beat him to the punch (pun so very intended).

Superman can weave in a dozen ways, but the nature of precognizance makes it clear that Palpatine will know the end result. He will know where Superman is when the lightning finishes it's advance. That is where the Lightning will earth itself.

Unless Clark is sleeping he will always be to one side or another of Palps' eventual aim. You keep assuming only Palps is reacting to a changing environment, but Sups can also react. That changes the game fundamentally. You have claimed (and I have shown) how Palps can use his precog against a non-reactive Clark, but that does not model reality. I have shown how a more accurate model heavily favors Sups, you have only said this is not so.

This is without bringing up the Movie-level Canon implied, and the G(? It's the lowest level Lucasfilm dubs 'Canon'.)-level explicitly shown ability of Force Lightning to hit no matter how much dodging is going on. It earths itself on the living target. Superman will be that.

Are you suggesting FL homes into targets O_o

Even if you are, without an ambush (recall they are face to face) Palps won't even raise his hand before he is vaporized through kinetic energy transfer.

[SirNitram]

So far all you have is talk. Sups can move stupidly fast, even without having precise numbers I've shown how the difference is too great for mere precog to work.

No, you haven't. You make an ignorant and bullshit-full argument, and frankly, it ends here.

You no doubt think you're clever, trying to pretend Palpatine can take one 'snapshot' of the future, and Clark's reactions after that don't count, or some similar peice of bullshit which goes to the effect of: Once Palpatine starts, Clark just changes the future.

This doesn't work. If it did, and we looked at it logically, something I realize you've never done in your life, we'd realize that Force Precog and Futuresight(Referring to the longer-term application) would be impossible to use, because millions of choices and random changes happen every moment. No reading would ever come out right. But this is never how it works.

Now. For someone claiming his opponent is 'all talk', you throw around nothing but Red Herrings and outright lies. I suggest you alter this strategem.

[The Silence and I]

So far all you have is talk. Sups can move stupidly fast, even without having precise numbers I've shown how the difference is too great for mere precog to work.

No, you haven't. You make an ignorant and bullshit-full argument, and frankly, it ends here.

I don't know if you don't see what I'm saying or if you don't care to explain to me how it is wrong, but so far you're just telling me various things, and not showing me anything.

You no doubt think you're clever, trying to pretend Palpatine can take one 'snapshot' of the future, and Clark's reactions after that don't count, or some similar peice of bullshit which goes to the effect of: Once Palpatine starts, Clark just changes the future.

Clark's reactions after that one snapshot count, but they won't show Palps a path to victory. If you are sitting next to a 20 megaton bomb and you know it will go off in 60 seconds you have, effectively, precognition. But can you save yourself with it?
If a blindfolded Clark were to run up to and subsequently punch Palps, Palps would have enough precog and enough body speed to fry him or something. But if Clark can react to any move Palps makes then Palps precog will show him a messy future.

If you look at this problem through Palps' eyes it is extremely complex, trying to predict reactions to reactions to reactions to moves you haven't even made yet. You can simplify the problem if you look through Clark's eyes. You see Palps raise a hand -- very slowly -- now what? You've got a relative eternity before anything bad happens, so just spint over there and kill him. What's he gonna do? He is too slow. If you were tying your shoes and missed him raising his hand you still have a chance to see the bright blue lightning moving towards you -- not as, but still slowly -- and unless it tracks you -- and very damn well -- you have the speed to side step it. Now sprint up and cave his face in.

This doesn't work. If it did, and we looked at it logically, something I realize you've never done in your life, we'd realize that Force Precog and Futuresight(Referring to the longer-term application) would be impossible to use, because millions of choices and random changes happen every moment. No reading would ever come out right. But this is never how it works.

No. Since you essentially strawmanned me in your previous paragragh this does not apply to me.

Now. For someone claiming his opponent is 'all talk', you throw around nothing but Red Herrings and outright lies. I suggest you alter this strategem.

Nice baseless generalization. Point to these red herrings, point to the lies, then maybe you'll have justification to say that.

[SirNitram]

So far all you have is talk. Sups can move stupidly fast, even without having precise numbers I've shown how the difference is too great for mere precog to work.

No, you haven't. You make an ignorant and bullshit-full argument, and frankly, it ends here.

I don't know if you don't see what I'm saying or if you don't care to explain to me how it is wrong, but so far you're just telling me various things, and not showing me anything.

And you've done nothing but throw out fallacies. That puts me rather farther ahead, little one.

You no doubt think you're clever, trying to pretend Palpatine can take one 'snapshot' of the future, and Clark's reactions after that don't count, or some similar peice of bullshit which goes to the effect of: Once Palpatine starts, Clark just changes the future.

Clark's reactions after that one snapshot count, but they won't show Palps a path to victory. If you are sitting next to a 20 megaton bomb and you know it will go off in 60 seconds you have, effectively, precognition. But can you save yourself with it?

If my TK can disconnect the wires inside... Yes. Which is effectively one of several thousand possible solutions that Palpatine can apply.

If a blindfolded Clark were to run up to and subsequently punch Palps, Palps would have enough precog and enough body speed to fry him or something. But if Clark can react to any move Palps makes then Palps precog will show him a messy future.

Except that we know Force Walls can be created, and then Clark's just punching TK constructs, not Palpy. Or by the time Clark's about to think of it, the blood vessels in his brain burst. Or his trachae collapses. Or Force Lightning flays his soul.

Any of a thousand ways to die.

If you look at this problem through Palps' eyes it is extremely complex, trying to predict reactions to reactions to reactions to moves you haven't even made yet.

See, you just bullshit again. The future will show only one chain of events: The full outlay of reactions of reactions of reactions, to the point where Palpatine can just aim and know it'll work. I challenge you to supply the slightest shred of evidence that Force Users have to exert any effort to 'react to reactions of reactions', when they regularly do just that against opponents with both negative reaction times themselves, and the ability to inhibit their futuresight. IE, other Jedi.

This is your problem. You make up an artificial, illogical distinction, 'reactions to reactions', and try to build a castle on thin air.

[Charon]

Two things I can think of involving this. Even assuming that Palpatine can see Clark coming and throw lightning or a force wall or what have you at him, what the hell is it gonna do? Sure lightning screws up your average person, even your awesome jedi, but Superman is the kind of character who laughs when people set off multi-megaton nukes on top of him. At best it will annoy him some, maybe even slow him down a little (Considering how far Mace Windu was thrown) but when you're going several mach it's not gonna help much. Now maybe a Force Storm could do more, and assuming Palpatine has the time he could set up one of those to mess up Superman.

The second point I can think of. Precog is not perfect, especially when you start getting past a few seconds. I think the worst case of precog failing you is against Palpatine himself, when he does not see his own apprentice turning on him even when there was several seconds of Vader struggling with what to do. As we've seen numerous times in the Star Wars universe, Precog only needs to fail once to be fatal.

[SirNitram]

Two things I can think of involving this. Even assuming that Palpatine can see Clark coming and throw lightning or a force wall or what have you at him, what the hell is it gonna do? Sure lightning screws up your average person, even your awesome jedi, but Superman is the kind of character who laughs when people set off multi-megaton nukes on top of him.

Force Lightning definately falls under the broad concept of DCU's 'Magic', therefore Supes is at least as toast as Joe Blow.

The second point I can think of. Precog is not perfect, especially when you start getting past a few seconds. I think the worst case of precog failing you is against Palpatine himself, when he does not see his own apprentice turning on him even when there was several seconds of Vader struggling with what to do. As we've seen numerous times in the Star Wars universe, Precog only needs to fail once to be fatal.

We're kinda assuming Palpy is not in 'Gloat Over Corpse' mode. We could assume that he's in that, but then why not assume Supes is in his normal mode, which would not smash an old man down who looks so frail. And as covered, if Superman actually listens to Palps, Supes is gonna be the New Order's most dangerous enforcer.

[Batman]

SNIPPY my part due to length. I trust it is obvious what I'm talking about
Sorry, but the canon is quite clear that blaster fire is a massless shot at cee. You may not like Dr. Saxton, but ultimately, Lucas gave him the nod.

I must have missed that one. Turbolasers naturally are but I wasn't aware hand blasters are, too. If they officially are I naturally conceed but since there isn't, at least to my knowledge, any evidence for hand blasters doing damage before the strike of the visible bolts, nor for Jedi bothering to deflect anything BUT the visible bolts I for the time being assume hasnd blaster discharges are limited to the speed of the visible portion.

And Palpy's reaction time IS positive. He can indubitably start reacting before Clark does whatever he eventually does, but as Clark can finish whatever he's doing long before Palpy does anything (extreme Force Powers may be powerful but they don't seem to be all that fast) Clark wins.

Prove it's positive. You just asserted it and then failed to back it up. This bores me.

His reaction time is positive by definition. Of course we appear to be working with different definitions of 'positive' here. As far as I'm concerned a positive reaction time means Palpy does take time to react in the first place. He will, there's no way around that. He ALSO will start to do so BEFORE Clark actually starts whatever Palpy is reacting to in the first place
which is probably what you mean by negative reaction time. The question is can Palpatine react fast enough for it to matter.

It does not matter if Superman is uber-fast,

Yes it does. See above.

because Palpatine can start reacting beforehand and it will take effect when the Boy Scout completes.

Assuming that Palpatine's Force Powers , unlike Clark's doings, do NOT actually have a duration.

No, the time to execute just has to coincide with Clark starting his action.

And is Palpatine actually this fast? We're talking minuscule fractions of a second here.

This blatant repetition of 'No, no, no' in the face of this simple logic tires me to no end.

Funny given that YOU are the one doing it. Clark can move at significant fractions of c, if need be in-atmosphere. Palpy has Jedi Precog. My money is sure as hell not on the Senator.

This is because you don't know what you're talking about, as evidenced by the fact you loudly proclaim you're right, that Palpatine's reaction time is positive, and utterly fail to demonstrate this.

See above.

Jedi Precog can extend hours, days ahead, and that was Luke in his training.

And the precision of said Precog sucked donkey balls. Palpatine needs to know what, when and where Clark is going to do whatever he does with a precision measured in microseconds and centimeters. I'm not as familiar with the EU as you are but I don't think Palpatine ever demonstrated that.

A Sith Lord of Palpy's calibur is going to simply hit Superman in the chest with Force Lightning and flay his soul.

But I'm the one claiming stuff without evidence.

[Batman]

Two things I can think of involving this. Even assuming that Palpatine can see Clark coming and throw lightning or a force wall or what have you at him, what the hell is it gonna do? Sure lightning screws up your average person, even your awesome jedi, but Superman is the kind of character who laughs when people set off multi-megaton nukes on top of him.

Force Lightning definately falls under the broad concept of DCU's 'Magic', therefore Supes is at least as toast as Joe Blow.

Why? In the SWU the Force is apparently a natural phenomenon that at least partially obeys the laws of physics. I don't see how the Force is neccessarily any more magic than DCU Green Lantern rings or Psi powers.

[SirNitram]

SNIPPY my part due to length. I trust it is obvious what I'm talking about
Sorry, but the canon is quite clear that blaster fire is a massless shot at cee. You may not like Dr. Saxton, but ultimately, Lucas gave him the nod.

I must have missed that one. Turbolasers naturally are but I wasn't aware hand blasters are, too. If they officially are I naturally conceed but since there isn't, at least to my knowledge, any evidence for hand blasters doing damage before the strike of the visible bolts, nor for Jedi bothering to deflect anything BUT the visible bolts I for the time being assume hasnd blaster discharges are limited to the speed of the visible portion.

So all the comments about it being the same technology being the same falls on deaf ears for you? Both requiring Tibanna gas?

This is a pathetic flail, Batman. You insult me.

And Palpy's reaction time IS positive. He can indubitably start reacting before Clark does whatever he eventually does, but as Clark can finish whatever he's doing long before Palpy does anything (extreme Force Powers may be powerful but they don't seem to be all that fast) Clark wins.

Prove it's positive. You just asserted it and then failed to back it up. This bores me.

His reaction time is positive by definition. Of course we appear to be working with different definitions of 'positive' here. As far as I'm concerned a positive reaction time means Palpy does take time to react in the first place. He will, there's no way around that. He ALSO will start to do so BEFORE Clark actually starts whatever Palpy is reacting to in the first place which is probably what you mean by negative reaction time. The question is can Palpatine react fast enough for it to matter.

Which is not in question by even your fellow fool, Silence. Palpatine's reaction time is a negative number, assuming zero is the instant the action begins/take place. This is because Palpatine knows it's coming before his opponent thinks of it. That's why it's combat precognition, and not simply defensive telepathy.

Yes it does. See above. Assuming that Palpatine's Force Powers , unlike Clark's doings, do NOT actually have a duration.

No, the time to execute just has to coincide with Clark starting his action.

And is Palpatine actually this fast? We're talking minuscule fractions of a second here.

Palpatine could take minutes; he knows where to place the blow to hit Superman when he reacts in his picosecond.

Funny given that YOU are the one doing it. Clark can move at significant fractions of c, if need be in-atmosphere. Palpy has Jedi Precog. My money is sure as hell not on the Senator.

This is because you don't know what you're talking about, as evidenced by the fact you loudly proclaim you're right, that Palpatine's reaction time is positive, and utterly fail to demonstrate this.

See above.

See what? You refusing to admit Jedi and Sith have an observed and stated ability?

Jedi Precog can extend hours, days ahead, and that was Luke in his training.

And the precision of said Precog sucked donkey balls. Palpatine needs to know what, when and where Clark is going to do whatever he does with a precision measured in microseconds and centimeters. I'm not as familiar with the EU as you are but I don't think Palpatine ever demonstrated that.

Palpatine did not, no. However, it is trivial to assume Palpatine is equal in skill to the upper tiers of the Jedi Temple(It took Windu, one of the best lightsaber wielders, to force him to lose the initiative), and they and those who follow them demonstrate this.

A Sith Lord of Palpy's calibur is going to simply hit Superman in the chest with Force Lightning and flay his soul.

But I'm the one claiming stuff without evidence.

Yes, actually, you are. You don't show evidence of Superman going 'near cee' in atmosphere, which would annihilate whole regions from energy release. You haven't shown the slightest evidence he can't react in time when he knows about it beforehand.

So shut the fuck up, frankly. You aren't debating. You're bullshitting because you're out of your depth and don't want to admit you're out of your league.

Why? In the SWU the Force is apparently a natural phenomenon that at least partially obeys the laws of physics. I don't see how the Force is neccessarily any more magic than DCU Green Lantern rings or Psi powers.

Define why magic must be 'unnatural', which is a frankly stupid, insipid concept to any logical mind. But of course, since you aren't engaging your logical mind in this debate, you simply won't be able to.

Oh no, Superman can't out-react a precognizant. So let's spam up a necro'd thread with mindless repetition because we can't actually refute that big meanie SirNitram.

[Batman]

SNIPPY my part due to length. I trust it is obvious what I'm talking about
Sorry, but the canon is quite clear that blaster fire is a massless shot at cee. You may not like Dr. Saxton, but ultimately, Lucas gave him the nod.

I must have missed that one. Turbolasers naturally are but I wasn't aware hand blasters are, too. If they officially are I naturally conceed but since there isn't, at least to my knowledge, any evidence for hand blasters doing damage before the strike of the visible bolts, nor for Jedi bothering to deflect anything BUT the visible bolts I for the time being assume hasnd blaster discharges are limited to the speed of the visible portion.

So all the comments about it being the same technology being the same falls on deaf ears for you?

When I'm not aware of that being the same technology and at the very least the movies DIRECTLY CONTRADCTING IT yes it does. UNLIKE TLS there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for hand blaster bolts doing damage before the visible part hits. The visible part moving at speeds that aren't exactly high-fractional c.

Both requiring Tibanna gas?

So?

Prove it's positive. You just asserted it and then failed to back it up. This bores me.

His reaction time is positive by definition. Of course we appear to be working with different definitions of 'positive' here. As far as I'm concerned a positive reaction time means Palpy does take time to react in the first place. He will, there's no way around that. He ALSO will start to do so BEFORE Clark actually starts whatever Palpy is reacting to in the first place which is probably what you mean by negative reaction time. The question is can Palpatine react fast enough for it to matter.

Which is not in question by even your fellow fool, Silence. Palpatine's reaction time is a negative number, assuming zero is the instant the action begins/take place.

I'm reasonably certain I just agreed to that.

This is because Palpatine knows it's coming before his opponent thinks of it. That's why it's combat precognition, and not simply defensive telepathy.

And that means Palpy can react fast enough for it to matter why?

No, the time to execute just has to coincide with Clark starting his action.

And is Palpatine actually this fast? We're talking minuscule fractions of a second here.

Palpatine could take minutes; he knows where to place the blow to hit Superman when he reacts in his picosecond.

[/i]Assuming Palpatine's precog tells him when and where to react with sufficient detail, and in time for it to matter.[/i]. Luke's certainly didn't, nor did any of the Jedis we saw in the movies, or any of the Force powers we were shown in the pre-NJO EU novels.

This is because you don't know what you're talking about, as evidenced by the fact you loudly proclaim you're right, that Palpatine's reaction time is positive, and utterly fail to demonstrate this.

See above.

See what? You refusing to admit Jedi and Sith have an observed and stated ability?

What ability would that be? I never denied they have precog. That they have precog precise and long-reaching enough to make them able to compensate for Clark's insane speed is for YOU to show.

Jedi Precog can extend hours, days ahead, and that was Luke in his training.

And the precision of said Precog sucked donkey balls. Palpatine needs to know what, when and where Clark is going to do whatever he does with a precision measured in microseconds and centimeters. I'm not as familiar with the EU as you are but I don't think Palpatine ever demonstrated that.

Palpatine did not, no. However, it is trivial to assume Palpatine is equal in skill to the upper tiers of the Jedi Temple(It took Windu, one of the best lightsaber wielders, to force him to lose the initiative), and they and those who follow them demonstrate this.

And the reliability of that precog would be...?

A Sith Lord of Palpy's calibur is going to simply hit Superman in the chest with Force Lightning and flay his soul.

But I'm the one claiming stuff without evidence.

Yes, actually, you are. You don't show evidence of Superman going 'near cee' in atmosphere, which would annihilate whole regions from energy release.

Which canonically DOESN'T happen. Be it a variation of the Speed Force or whatever in-universe Clark CAN go asininely fast without any ill effects to his surroundings. That's superhero comics for you.

You haven't shown the slightest evidence he can't react in time when he knows about it beforehand.

You have shown no evidence he'll know beforehand, leave alone by a margin long enough to matter.

So shut the fuck up, frankly. You aren't debating. You're bullshitting because you're out of your depth and don't want to admit you're out of your league.

Really.

Why? In the SWU the Force is apparently a natural phenomenon that at least partially obeys the laws of physics. I don't see how the Force is neccessarily any more magic than DCU Green Lantern rings or Psi powers.

Define why magic must be 'unnatural', which is a frankly stupid, insipid concept to any logical mind.

Explain why the Force HAS to be magic, please. I'm not denying that it MIGHT be. Given that YOU are the one claiming that it inevitably IS however I don't see why the burden of proof is on me to show that it ISN'T.

Oh no, Superman can't out-react a precognizant.

Why not?

So let's spam up a necro'd thread with mindless repetition because we can't actually refute that big meanie SirNitram.

Why would I have to refute a baseless assertion on your part in the first place?

[SirNitram]

I must have missed that one. Turbolasers naturally are but I wasn't aware hand blasters are, too. If they officially are I naturally conceed but since there isn't, at least to my knowledge, any evidence for hand blasters doing damage before the strike of the visible bolts, nor for Jedi bothering to deflect anything BUT the visible bolts I for the time being assume hasnd blaster discharges are limited to the speed of the visible portion.

So all the comments about it being the same technology being the same falls on deaf ears for you?

When I'm not aware of that being the same technology and at the very least the movies DIRECTLY CONTRADCTING IT yes it does. UNLIKE TLS there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for hand blaster bolts doing damage before the visible part hits. The visible part moving at speeds that aren't exactly high-fractional c.

Substantiate this claim that the movies directly contradict it, immediately.

Both requiring Tibanna gas?

So?

Same operating principle, rather obviously. Or do you beleive a 4 cylinder and a 12 cylinder engine are nothing like each other?

His reaction time is positive by definition. Of course we appear to be working with different definitions of 'positive' here. As far as I'm concerned a positive reaction time means Palpy does take time to react in the first place. He will, there's no way around that. He ALSO will start to do so BEFORE Clark actually starts whatever Palpy is reacting to in the first place which is probably what you mean by negative reaction time. The question is can Palpatine react fast enough for it to matter.

Which is not in question by even your fellow fool, Silence. Palpatine's reaction time is a negative number, assuming zero is the instant the action begins/take place.

I'm reasonably certain I just agreed to that.

This is because Palpatine knows it's coming before his opponent thinks of it. That's why it's combat precognition, and not simply defensive telepathy.

And that means Palpy can react fast enough for it to matter why?

I've explained this several times. You stamping your feet and demanding me to do it once more bores me. Read the thread: He can begin acting well ahead of time, and we know it doesn't take minutes to throw Force Lightning.

[
[/i]Assuming Palpatine's precog tells him when and where to react with sufficient detail, and in time for it to matter.[/i]. Luke's certainly didn't, nor did any of the Jedis we saw in the movies, or any of the Force powers we were shown in the pre-NJO EU novels.

Simply put: Liar. We observe them having precise combat precognition in all the fights. Indeed, Luke's flailing style is saved purely by knowing exactly where Vader will be.

What ability would that be? I never denied they have precog. That they have precog precise and long-reaching enough to make them able to compensate for Clark's insane speed is for YOU to show.

They can keep pace with other beings with an effective negative reaction time. This makes it clear they can react to beings who are limited to effective positive reaction times.

And the reliability of that precog would be...?

Sufficient for battle with multiple opponents with negative reaction times. This, inherently, is more reliability than is needed against one opponent with positive reaction time.

Which canonically DOESN'T happen. Be it a variation of the Speed Force or whatever in-universe Clark CAN go asininely fast without any ill effects to his surroundings. That's superhero comics for you.

Which would suggest he is not going as fast as you claim. That's called Suspension Of Disbeleif, a basic requirement of this kind of debate.

You have shown no evidence he'll know beforehand, leave alone by a margin long enough to matter.

Actually, I have. It all revolves around the fact that he fought multiple Jedi, whose reactions are being formed well before Superman has ever formed his own, because they start before any sensory input. And he won against all but Windu.

Really.

Yes. Really. Your inability to grasp the simple matter of a negative number being less than a positive one is glaring in this.

Explain why the Force HAS to be magic, please. I'm not denying that it MIGHT be. Given that YOU are the one claiming that it inevitably IS however I don't see why the burden of proof is on me to show that it ISN'T.

Of course you don't; you've ceased to be at all rational about this. The Force resembles magic in all the usual manners: Practitioners study at length, activate it with gestures, and it defies normal, modern day science. PRovide a shred of evidence why it's not magic, or for that matter, how magic can be 'unnatural'.

Oh no, Superman can't out-react a precognizant.

Why not?

Because with the exception of the Silver Age Sword Of Superman-equipped Supes, he's never had precognizance. Negative reaction time beats positive reaction time by it's very nature.

So let's spam up a necro'd thread with mindless repetition because we can't actually refute that big meanie SirNitram.

Why would I have to refute a baseless assertion on your part in the first place?

Cute, from the little punk who repeatedly shows he doesn't know anything about SoD, one side of the discussion, and can't comprehend how .01 of a second is longer than -5 seconds.

[SirNitram]

Here, I'll lay it out in simple mathematics, since one side seems to be jettisoning all rationality.

Superman's reaction time can safely be declared an arbitrary number in the positive range, assuming 0 represents the input of sensory data on the event(IE, he sees it). We'll call it .0X for the purposes of this.

Palpatine's, and all Jedi who learn Combat Precognition, have a reaction time expressed as a negative number with 0 as the input of sense data; they react before the opponent even thinks of it, in fact. This value can be called -Y.

0: Superman's first attack. Beyond this is unnecessary; if the attack is successful, we can safely say Palpatine is out of the fight, unless Superman attempts heat vision under a few thousand degrees, which Jedi can withstand(Battle in the lava flows).
0-Y: Palpatine sees Superman's movement coming, executes lightning throw.
0-Y+.0X: Palpatine sees Superman's reaction to the lightning throw, and can adjust his aim to ensure a hit.
Repeat the previous two as needed, but not by far; as said above, movie's imply, and very low canon explicitly show, that lightning has a tracking capability.
0: Superman's very soul is being flayed by the lightning, and he never completes his attack.

[Lord Iames Osari]

It is well etablished that a Force User can anchor his "spirit" (for lack of a better term) to the physical world.

No it isn't. Actually as per HTTE it is heavily implied that a Force User can anchor his spirit to ANOTHER Force User.

I wasn't going to invoke EU, but since you have, I will feel free to. Since EU is now a valid reference, I direct you to the EU novel Children of the Jedi, in which a Jedi is discovered to have anchored herself to the computer system of an abandoned Imperial superweapon, the Eye of Palpatine. This seems to imply that a Force User can anchor himself to any physical object, or at least any object of sufficient complexity, which Supes' brain certainly qualifies as.

So, here's my theory:
Thanks to his precognitive abilities, Palpatine is aware of Superman's approach by at least a few fractions of a second.

Debatable at best and even if true irrelevant given Clark moves at significant fractions of c if need be. Palpy can't REACT fast enough to matter in a tactical situation.

I'll leave this alone for now, since SirNitram seems to have it covered.

Superman, once he gets within close range, can and does easily defeat Palpatine. Palpatine, however, anchors his spirit to the physical world as I described above.

Which even if it works requires another Force User. There's exactly zero accounts of Jedi anchoring their spirit to inanimate objects.

Incorrect; see my above comment on Children of the Jedi.

Given Palpatine's immense experience and ability at influencing people's minds with the Force (witness the prequel films,

Where there is no evidence of him doing so in the first place,

It is rather heavily implied in the way everything seems to happen just the way he wants it, when it comes to things like manipulating the Senate and the courts. I can't recall Mace Windu's exact line from RotS atm, but isn't it something to the effect of, "He owns the courts"?

and we have no reason to think he stopped after taking over), and his ability to basically follow Superman wherever

Which is, again, evidenced by nothing whatsoever,

Well, Bats, if you were a Sith Lord who'd risen to power by influencing the minds of masses of people, would you see any reason to stop after achieving power?

(Ben showed up on Hoth, Dagobah, and Endor, all parsecs distant from each other),

So?

Ok, let's say that Ben could only appear there because Luke was there (and that Ben was in fact anchored to Luke). If Palpy anchors himself to Supes...

I think it's safe to say that even if the Force does not exploit Superman's weakness to magic, over time, Palpatine will eventually be able to take over Superman's mind,

except he won't live long enough for that to happen.

His body doesn't have to. Only his spirit does.

perhaps even to the point of actually possessing his body. Then you have Palpatine's mind in Superman's body, with all the powers of both.

Happily ignoring the fact that Clark can wipe out Palpy in a fraction of a second without noticing.

Happily ignoring the fact that Palpy's precognition will afford him the few instants of mental preparation necessary to anchor himself.

Victor: Palpatine.

Or not.

Or yes.

[SirNitram]

Batman, your ignorance of what you debate is showing. You claim Palpatine's never worked with people's minds? Yet you cite Heir To The Empire?

Fool! Thrawn explicitly states he manipulated the minds of all the Military! Joruus demonstrates just what this means when he seizes control of the tens of thousands of minds aboard Thrawn's ISD. Indeed, Palpatine clouds the minds of billions, probably trillions, when he has the Lusankya land and be covered over on Coruscant's surface, without a soul noticing.

[Hotfoot]

I would like to point out that having precog is not a be-all end-all. It is only useful when the amount of precog and the reflexes is less time than the opponent's reflexes.

For example. Palpatine knows what will happen 0.5 seconds from now. His ability to perform his action is another 0.5 seconds. This should let him know if whatever he was planning on doing will at least go off uninterrupted (though it may not be successful. However, if his ability to perform the action is 1 second, then we have a problem, since his reaction time is greater than his precog time. Even if he saw the punch coming, he wouldn't be able to get out of the way in time because he's unable to move that fast. Moreover, if Superman can throw a punch every 0.1 seconds, it doesn't matter how long Palpatine knew about it, he can't physically move to block each punch because he would be moving more slowly in this example. Just because you know something is coming doesn't mean you can always stop it. The first punch would most likely be stopped, and maybe the second, but successive blows would come through.

Now, of course, this shouldn't be a problem, but even so, precog and advanced reflexes only bring you so far. Just because you know where someone is going to hit you doesn't mean you can move out of the way in time. Yes, I know, negative reaction time sounds lovely, but you're still going to be limited by what fleshy parts you have. Just like too many blaster bolts will overcome precog, anything attacking fast enough will do the same, because there is lag time in how fast the body can act.

Think of it like a Mega Man boss. You know where, when, and how they are going to attack once you've fought them a few times (effective precog), but there are times when that knowledge doesn't save you because it's too fast for you to do anything before you are hit.

So it is possible for Superman to overwhelm Palpatine in a straight-up physical fight, assuming he can withstand a saber and he throws his punches fast enough, but with Palpy's force powers, chances are better that unless Supes blasts Palpy from orbit with heat vision or something, he'll be fried by force lightning.

[SirNitram]

Indeed, Hotfoot. Though I'm quite sure Palpy's lead-time is sufficient for the first exchange, I re-iterate why my example didn't bother with a second: If Superman hits, game over for Palps.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Unless of course Palpy anchors his spirit to Superman as I suggested. Then, Palpy wins even if Supes hits.

[SirNitram]

Unless of course Palpy anchors his spirit to Superman as I suggested. Then, Palpy wins even if Supes hits.

Let's not explore the horrific possibility of Palpatine possessing Superman's body. That's just flat-out wrong.

[Batman]

There's going to be heavy cropping on the quotes to keep the length down. Again the OPs are there for all to see so I trust this will not be a problem.

So all the comments about it being the same technology being the same falls on deaf ears for you?

When I'm not aware of that being the same technology and at the very least the movies DIRECTLY CONTRADCTING IT yes it does. UNLIKE TLS there is NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER for hand blaster bolts doing damage before the visible part hits. The visible part moving at speeds that aren't exactly high-fractional c.

Substantiate this claim that the movies directly contradict it, immediately.

Well I obviously failed at the 'immediate' bit. But there is to my knowledge not a single instance in the movies that show hand blaster bolts doing damage before the impact of the visible portion. Furthermore I can't recall a single instance of Jedi reacting to blaster bolts until AFTER they are underway which indicates a rather low propagation speed.

Both requiring Tibanna gas?

So?

Same operating principle, rather obviously. Or do you beleive a 4 cylinder and a 12 cylinder engine are nothing like each other?

As that operating principle is a complete mystery to us AND allows for the visible 'tracer' in TLs I fail to see how it is unfeasible for hand blasters to be limited to the speed of the visible bolt.

This is because Palpatine knows it's coming before his opponent thinks of it. That's why it's combat precognition, and not simply defensive telepathy.

And that means Palpy can react fast enough for it to matter why?

I've explained this several times.

No you haven't. You have ALLEGED he can do so.

You stamping your feet and demanding me to do it once more bores me. Read the thread: He can begin acting well ahead of time, and we know it doesn't take minutes to throw Force Lightning.

That he can do so 'well ahead' of time is your allegation. And we're not talking several minutes, we're talking fractions of a second. Not that combat precog was ever shown to have a range beyond a second at best anyway.

Assuming Palpatine's precog tells him when and where to react with sufficient detail, and in time for it to matter.. Luke's certainly didn't, nor did any of the Jedis we saw in the movies, or any of the Force powers we were shown in the pre-NJO EU novels.

Simply put: Liar. We observe them having precise combat precognition in all the fights.

I was not aware any of the Jedi in the movies were fighting Superman. they have combat precog precise enough to fight other Jedi and people armed with blasters. Clark is a bit faster and more powerful than that.

Indeed, Luke's flailing style is saved purely by knowing exactly where Vader will be.

Except Vader wasn't exactly moving like greased lightning in their fights.

What ability would that be? I never denied they have precog. That they have precog precise and long-reaching enough to make them able to compensate for Clark's insane speed is for YOU to show.

They can keep pace with other beings with an effective negative reaction time.

except a Jedi's reaction time isn't necessarily negative. It's a lot shorter than a normal humns to be sure but if the time between his precog kicking in and the Jedi FINISHING whatever reaction the precog got him to enact is longer than the range of the precog (which for actual battle precog seems to be less than a second) his EFFECTIVE reaction time is still positive. And while Jedi move and react a lot faster than standard humans they are nowhere as fast as Kryptonians under a yellow sun.

And the reliability of that precog would be...?

Sufficient for battle with multiple opponents with negative reaction times.

Except the EFFECTIVE reaction time isn't really negative.

This, inherently, is more reliability than is needed against one opponent with positive reaction time.

A positive reaction time measured in microseconds against Palpy who's supposedly negative reaction time is still limited by a (albeit Jedi-enhanced) human nervous system and musculature.

Which canonically DOESN'T happen. Be it a variation of the Speed Force or whatever in-universe Clark CAN go asininely fast without any ill effects to his surroundings. That's superhero comics for you.

Which would suggest he is not going as fast as you claim. That's called Suspension Of Disbeleif, a basic requirement of this kind of debate.

Except there are numerous situations in the comics that REQUIRE him to be that fast yet no ill effects of him going those speeds are ever shown.
So we can either conclude that any number of processes that are either explicitly stated to be damn fast or are depictions of events that would be damned fast IRL actually AREN'T, or we can assume that since it's a KNOWN FACT that in-universe the side effects of moving that fast in atmosphere don't always manifest, Clark benefits from one of those oddities.

You have shown no evidence he'll know beforehand, leave alone by a margin long enough to matter.

Actually, I have. It all revolves around the fact that he fought multiple Jedi, whose reactions are being formed well before Superman has ever formed his own, because they start before any sensory input.

They may be being FORMED well before that ('well' apparently meaning a second or so, what with that seeming to be the limit of battle precog) but they ain't executed immediately. Jedi START reacting to situation before they actually happen, but not by all that much in battle situations, and they still take TIME reacting. And they react a lot slower than Clark.

And he won against all but Windu.

So? Not a single one of them was as fast as a Kryptonian under a yellow sun, and a Jedi's NET reaction time is NOT negative.

Really.

Yes. Really. Your inability to grasp the simple matter of a negative number being less than a positive one is glaring in this.

I already explained why I don't like the negative number bit WRT reaction time, I already stated that I know and agree Jedi can START reacting to a situation before it already occurs, and the Jedi's NET reaction time is NOT negative. I don't care if you know about what I do 30 seconds before I actually do it, if it takes you five minutes to do something about it you're still screwed.

Explain why the Force HAS to be magic, please. I'm not denying that it MIGHT be. Given that YOU are the one claiming that it inevitably IS however I don't see why the burden of proof is on me to show that it ISN'T.

Of course you don't; you've ceased to be at all rational about this. The Force resembles magic in all the usual manners: Practitioners study at length, activate it with gestures, and it defies normal, modern day science.

You mean like Psi powers or generic fantasy martial arts chi bullshit? And defying normal modern day science is a GIVEN WRT superhero comics. Hell 'I' defy modern day science and I'm supposedly a top-notch baseline human.
Sorry, just because it defies modern day physics does NOT make it magic.
Not in the DCU sense of the word anyway.

PRovide a shred of evidence why it's not magic,

Is it me or did you just ask me to prove a negative?

Oh no, Superman can't out-react a precognizant.

Why not?

Because with the exception of the Silver Age Sword Of Superman-equipped Supes, he's never had precognizance. Negative reaction time beats positive reaction time by it's very nature.

Except Jedi do not HAVE net-effective negative reaction time.

So let's spam up a necro'd thread with mindless repetition because we can't actually refute that big meanie SirNitram.

Why would I have to refute a baseless assertion on your part in the first place?

Cute, from the little punk who repeatedly shows he doesn't know anything about SoD,

...says the man who ignores countless amounts of incidents of people inevitably moving asininely fast in-atmosphere WITHOUT the side effects normally associated with it in a universe where at least one official mechanism to explain it away exists...