Let's create a Fantasy World....

[Charon]

There is several extinct races

If that is the case we are talking some truly apocolyptic shit going down. Sentient races don't go extinct on their own without having done/had something done to them to horribly ruin their day.

I'm going to also go along the same lines of "No Elves/Dwarves/Orcs/Trolls/halflings/whatever". If I see one more fantasy world setting with those creatures I'm gonna stab out my eyes with butterknives, no offense meant towards you DS, I know you were just kinda throwing ideas out there.

I've come up with a few races for a fantasy setting I was creating that I can put down here just to have them and fine-tune them or outright get rid of if you want me to.

[Hotfoot]

I disagree, CT. Unless the magic in question is incredibly benign and minor in what it can do (and even then), you're going to create a situation where the quality of life improves to the point where you have leisure time and thus time to pursue actual science in addition to magic. Go ahead, list a set of magical abilities that would be common, and I'll show you how they can improve quality of life.

[frigidmagi]

A pair of suggestions that occured to me while walking about today:

Samandar Empire
By Redwings of the City Minerva

Mighty, immense, wealthy, decadent, cruel, wise, civilized, these are the words one would use to describe the Angra Empire. We have all heard of the tales of the Samandar Empire, ruled from the great tower ziggurat bigger then most cities, on its top most level sits on the Ivory Throne the demi-god emperor Homa, who dies and is reborn every 60 years in flame. At the seat of his throne sit the 600 sorceresses he has taken as wives, who also serve as the primary hands of royal rule. Also have we heard of the Immortal 10,000, the royal bodyguard and the dark magic that ensures has long as one of them lives, the others will rise again in the tower ziggurat's vaults. It is the tower ziggurat itself that serves as the capital of the empire, massive as a mountain, it is possible for a man to be born, grow old and die without ever stepping foot out of it. It contains the royal court and its functionaries from the Army High Command to the Royal Mages down to the servants of the servants of the servants to the court. The great city of Peri spreads out from the ziggurat, holding a million souls and serving as the gate way to the capital, its prime purpose is to provide for the royal court within the capital and as a place for foreigners to stay while awaiting Homa's pleasure.

For 600 years Samandar has stood for 500 of those years it has expanded in all directions. It is bound together in worship of Homa and his divine father, Mainyu, lord of the moon and holder of the rains. Worship of other gods is allowed, but their temples are subject to Mainyu's priesthood and they must pay a tax. Any noble must worship at Mainyu's altar, as well as any man or women who seeks to raise high in Samandar's sevice. Great fuedal estates sprawl across the countryside while densely packed cities squat across the trade routes, drinking the gold of merchants. The nobles no longer aggressively seek war and conquest but glut themselves in orgies paid for by foreign gold and trade, after all is not Samandar the center of the world they proclaim?

Samandar trades widely in all manner of goods, greatly prized is Samandar water silk or emeralds. A Samandar blade with its wave pattern or a Samandar slave fetches a good price as well.

The Iron League
By Redwings of the City Minerva

Directly on Samandar's western march lies a grim land of harsh hills and narrow valleys. Within those hills and valley live the militant clans and tribes that make up the Iron League, who has but one purpose. Resist Samandar and mock Homa's will. Traditionally a hunting ground for slavers and nobles of Samandar, until a wander carrying a sword with a caged spirit within fled there. The wander was a man who was called Lost and the sword was named Winter.

Lost was a man who had no memory of his past, he awoke on some far battlefield surrounded by the dead, there he encountered the spirit with lay within the sword Winter, forged by some forgotten civilization. Coming to a pact with Winter, Lost took up the blade and forged on and did many deeds that appear in many stories that need not be told here. Eventually he came upon Samandar and being told of the great tower zigguart resolved to see it and break into it to view its secrets with his own eyes. Within that tower he came upon the Sorceress Peri, who chafed at her marriage to Homa. She used her skills to hide Lost from the guards and seekers of the tower zigguart and together they escaped. They fled into the lands of the Iron League and there together pulled the clans and tribes together to make Homa howl. This was 125 years ago.

The clans and tribes are not united in the political or economic sense beyond them owing alliegence to the children of Peri and Lost. The family that traces its line to the two legendary founders serves mainly has judges in disputes between tribes or clans and has warleaders. The sword Winter serves the family, following it old Pact. The men of the Iron League are arranged into regiments and companies of swordmen and spearmen. While not a nation, and a at best a weak alliance, it is enough to hold back the Samandar Empire.

Not very fleshed out I know but it is a start. Thoughts?

[Charon]

Oh! Something I just thought of as well.

I'd like to steer clear of "We haven't advanced technologically in 800 years" and especially "Our technology is vastly less advanced than it was hundreds of years ago."

I know that when you've got magic there isn't much need to advance, but it shouldn't just stop.

[Hotfoot]

I agree there should be advancement, but secrets of lost civilizations is a tempted trope to pull from. The question is, how modern do we want this to feel? Will there be slavery? Will magic make life easier? Is there a secret of iron, and so forth.

[Cynical Cat]

Oh! Something I just thought of as well.

I'd like to steer clear of "We haven't advanced technologically in 800 years" and especially "Our technology is vastly less advanced than it was hundreds of years ago."

I know that when you've got magic there isn't much need to advance, but it shouldn't just stop.

It can its easier to make improvements by magic than by science (see Malazan books of the Fallen), but I'm gathering you don't want that high level of magic in your societies (learning metal working is hard and you'll never get there if its easy enough to magic up indestructible flint swords).

[Charon]

I agree there should be advancement, but secrets of lost civilizations is a tempted trope to pull from. The question is, how modern do we want this to feel? Will there be slavery? Will magic make life easier? Is there a secret of iron, and so forth.

I'll agree secrets of lost civilizations should be used. It is a really nice thing to have and done right it works very well. What I meant more of was that sure there's going to be lost technology and magic, and some of it will be better than what they have, but it shouldn't blow whatever is modern of the time out of the water unless we're talking like just after the event that caused the kind of devestation that this kind of information got lost.

As to the rest of those questions, I dunno but they are good questions to ask.

[Hotfoot]

Also, religion and gods. How do these factor in? Do they factor in at all? We almost never hear about the higher powers described as gods in Lord of the Rings, Gandalf is "merely" a wizard, as far as most people on Middle Earth know. The fact that he's an angel sent by the creator of the world is only really revealed in the Silmarillion.

Are the higher powers involved? Do they care? Are they simply fabrications of men? In a world with magic, it's hard to not have some sort of higher power.

[frigidmagi]

I'm gonna want spirits, gods and ancestors and the whole rigamole. I'm also gonna want Priests to have their own powers. I think they should be limited.

As for the Divine beings, they should be relativity distant. Let us not repeat the insanity that was the Forgotten Realms Avatar fest. I don't want the God of Murder and the God of Duty duking it out where everyone can see. That's over the line.

[rhoenix]

Personally, I'd vote for spirits, some minor deities/ancestor spirits and such, and perhaps even going so far as to being okay with the undead (since they make such wonderful antagonists) - but overall, I'd vote for a more atheistic type of world, where the gods' only influence is over the culture of people.

[Dark Silver]

When it comes to Gods and religion - I'm with frigid, in this world, I wanna see the whole shebang here. Gods, ancestor spirits, nymphs, etc etc.

I wanna see Priests with divine powers smiting undead, or working to use their powers to stave off a plague. Obviously I don't want to make the Priests to powerful with such things, so we need to work out a system for that to work. But however the majority goes for it, is how we'll do it here.

IF we do a pantheon, let's do it in such a way that we don't have 50 million Gods (God of the Harvest, God of the good blow job, God of incestuous thoughts....etc etc). One full Pantheon of gods, known by different names in the different cultures and or races. Along with the ancestor worshiping tribes, and what not. The Pantheon should be distant from it's worshiped, there shouldn't a day when the Avatar of the Goddess of PMS pops up and people say "Oh hey hey Menstrilia", know what I mean?


Technologically speaking, that's something everyone should have input and we reach by consensus. I'm going to say Iron age, at minimum for the tech level, maybe even having the races know the Enigma of Steel - at the very least.

------


As for the Lost Races.....

Depending on how we do the lost races, they may have been more advanced in one field, than the modern day - One of the civilizations could have forgone the use of magic and focused more on tech and science, while another could have did the opposite, while elsewhere another struck a balance between the two. Each of the first two, since they focused so heavily on one side and not the other, may have some secrets that got lost when their civilization imploded/got wiped out. But for the most part, modern life on the planet shouldn't be any less powerful on a whole, as those individual lost civilizations are. Maybe even some of the modern things came from the fact that they were discovered, and learned to reproduce from those lost civilization's ruins. Sorta like a building block.

Hell, the three Lost civilizations could even go like this First one was Technologically inclined, but eventually fucked up the environment enough that the planetary changed destroyed their civilization. The remnants finally put themselves back together a bit, and started focusing more on magic which eventually saw the rise of powerful wizard-nations, which blew themselves up in wars of magic. The third civilization was more balanced between tech and magic, never being as great as the previous two in either field, but never quiet getting it right...and their the only one still around. (see the Ageless Empire).


One of the ideas I was throwing around with frigid, which we could play with about the lost civilizations and the impact they have on modern life is this: None of the current sentient races except for one, is native to the World. The planet saw int he past the rise of several great civilizations of it's own peoples, who all followed the same path - annihilated themselves through war or impacted the world where they could no longer survive on it, and died out. Along comes some being who has been collecting species through out the universe, in order to find a place to keep them - sorta like a preserve. It started out with just beasts at first, those who where endanger of dying out on their own worlds, and then progressed to sentient life forms from "primitive worlds". All this happened so long ago, it's considered a fairy tale legend or myth, to the few who even know the story. The species adapted to their new surroundings, obviously, and the new civilizations started from that (the exception being the aforementioned Ageless Empire, who is the last survivors of of the original species). Scavenged magics and tech from the ruins helped speed somethings along,

Feel free to call this idea completely idiotic, it's just a throw out right there, a fleshing on a idea I had yesterday.

[LadyTevar]

I don't like the "Nature Preserve" idea :(

Now... that Magically active Empire -may- have broke thru the Astral and brought back slave races that have outlasted the fall of their master's empire...

[Dark Silver]

Part of the reason why I said it's just something thrown out...

the idea of the races coming from other worlds, but having been on this one for so long, their myths all place them on this new one, is still solid. How they got there, is something to work out, and could explain having a good many different races on the planet.

[frigidmagi]

I would be big on having more then one pantheon. I mean we got nearly a dozen writers on this board, let's fucking use them.

[Dark Silver]

Something I did miss, Hotfoot's questions: There's Slavery in this world, not every nation/city may approve of it, but it is something we should see in this world.

One race may even consider taking slaves from raided villages/cities as a tantamount thing to do, aside from stealing the wealth found there.


As for the multiple Pantheon things, that's fine, if we want to create Pantheon's for the different races, let's do it.

Hell, some races may not even have gods for all we know. I'd still prefer having the Pantheon's being a bit distant from the world.

[Hotfoot]

I put this idea to Frigid last night, now I'll put it forward to you now.

Magic and Religion. What is the difference? My idea is that the gods themselves exude magic on incredible levels. Here's the dynamic I was thinking of. The gods control their magic, refine it, shape it, and redistribute it to the faithful. This results in "miracles" or the powers of faith. Maybe by aligning yourself with a god, you can tap into their powers, but it's limited. A god of fertility won't let you smite evil, but rather help ensure a safe childbirth, etc.

Raw magic, meanwhile, is much more dangerous. Because it's not filtered by a god, its not limited, but it's also not controlled. Most mortals simply don't have the ability to harness magic well, be it a measure of will, intelligence, or raw ambition, and thus practice of magic is taboo, since it often results in bad things for the wielders. Maybe some orders have discovered safer ways to access the forces involved, but there is always some kind of price.

Thoughts?

[LadyTevar]

I like it.

This might go back to Ancestor worship as well, with a friendly ancestor allowing him/herself to be used as a filter to access the raw magic safely.

Although, this could also lead to the darker practice of killing and binding a soul for the same use.....

[Hotfoot]

Absolutely the route I was going. There are many safe ways to access magic, but they require sacrifice. Darker arts involve sacrificing others, and so on.

[rhoenix]

Hotfoot, so far I like your idea. It could show how a few ancestor spirits of a village could become deities in times of need. One could write entire book series on how different individuals of different generations are inspired (and blessed/encouraged in dreams) by the ancestor spirit(s) to great deeds.

That'd be borrowing from the Redwall theme a little bit, but as long as we skip the anthropomorphic mice/rats/otters/squirrels/badgers/etc., I'd say we're good.

[Charon]

Ok here are the racial ideas I had that I'll post. I'm editing some of them to fit with some of the ideas I like that have been floating around (The need for a god or ancestor to act as a buffer to magic). These are just brief overviews and I'll gt into better depth later.

The Teleran- An ancient and for all that is known extinct race. Thousands of years ago these medium height blue skinned creatures ruled over a continent with an iron fist of magical prowess. The reason for this prowess was simple, the Teleran did not have ancestors or deities to act as a buffer for their magic and had mastered a way to access magic almost directly. The risk was great but the benefits were considered to be greater. The Teleran ruled over a continent for nearly two thousand years, shaping the land itself to their whim, before the risks finally caught up to them. In two thousand years the Teleran had grown arrogant and complacent, the rigorous discipline required to wield the raw magic slackened and two thousand years ago the entire civilization was wiped out in the period of a month as worse and worse magic storms tore the countryside apart. To the best known records the Teleran died out with their civilization but it is possible that small enclaves still survive.

The Marad- A short and pale humanoid race, the Marad were created by the Teleran to serve as servants in their palaces and workers in their cities and farms. The Marad have very long lifetimes and generally have a very placid nature as a result. The Marad have survived their creators however, as there were many that were off continent on exploratory or trade endeavors. More however were on a series of islands as they had been exiled from the empire for daring to rise up against their masters. The Marad generally do not have a large population as many of their kind died with their creators or were so spread out that only a few communities have risen up.

The Kainan- A giant almost reptilian race, the Kainan were created by the Teleran to serve as guards and soldiers for their armies. As a result the Kainan have shorter lifespans and are generally more bloodthirsty in nature. The Kainan have survived their masters, as there had been several military bases that had been positioned off continent. The Kainan also once had a large area of land on another continent under their control where a great number of those that rebelled against their masters were dumped. The population of the Kainan is rather large as the population was not almost wiped out with the death of their creators, and the Kainan still control many chains of islands.

Thoughts? Ideas? Edits?

[Comrade Tortoise]

I would be fine with magical traditions in general having to have some sort of crutch to use magic. Be it a god, or ancestor. However I would like to have some sort of magic tradition that uses a systematic method. Even if it is restricted to certain groups. A structure of rigid discipline that serves to guard their minds etc. Sacrifice could and because I enjoy the idea, should, be a part of this, probably thematically related to the spell. A protection spell would require a bit of turtle shell, or armor, for example.


But pluralistic magic systems I can deal with...

As for races, if there is no game at Frigid Magis tonight, which it seems could happen, I will have a race idea, specifically one that uses said systematic magic system, posted.

[frigidmagi]

The Teleran- An ancient and for all that is known extinct race. Thousands of years ago these medium height blue skinned creatures ruled over a continent with an iron fist of magical prowess. The reason for this prowess was simple, the Teleran did not have ancestors or deities to act as a buffer for their magic and had mastered a way to access magic almost directly. The risk was great but the benefits were considered to be greater. The Teleran ruled over a continent for nearly two thousand years, shaping the land itself to their whim, before the risks finally caught up to them. In two thousand years the Teleran had grown arrogant and complacent, the rigorous discipline required to wield the raw magic slackened and two thousand years ago the entire civilization was wiped out in the period of a month as worse and worse magic storms tore the countryside apart. To the best known records the Teleran died out with their civilization but it is possible that small enclaves still survive.

I like this. Endorsed. In fact I want to slot it into another concept I have that will be detailed below. Feel free to tell me to go to hell if you don't like the combination Charon.

The Marad- A short and pale humanoid race, the Marad were created by the Teleran to serve as servants in their palaces and workers in their cities and farms. The Marad have very long lifetimes and generally have a very placid nature as a result. The Marad have survived their creators however, as there were many that were off continent on exploratory or trade endeavors. More however were on a series of islands as they had been exiled from the empire for daring to rise up against their masters. The Marad generally do not have a large population as many of their kind died with their creators or were so spread out that only a few communities have risen up.

Decadent power mad creatures need servants. Also endorsed.

The Kainan- A giant almost reptilian race, the Kainan were created by the Teleran to serve as guards and soldiers for their armies. As a result the Kainan have shorter lifespans and are generally more bloodthirsty in nature. The Kainan have survived their masters, as there had been several military bases that had been positioned off continent. The Kainan also once had a large area of land on another continent under their control where a great number of those that rebelled against their masters were dumped. The population of the Kainan is rather large as the population was not almost wiped out with the death of their creators, and the Kainan still control many chains of islands.

Here I gotta oppose though. I don't think you're thinking it all the way through Charon. Look what are these guys going to be afraid of? They're most powerful sorcerers around any outside enemies they simple turn to dust or unleash hellspawn or whatever on. No, what they're afraid of is the Marad.

Wait hear me out. What is the greatest nightmare of any society that rests on a servant/slave class? An internal uprising. These guys don't need hulking giant soldiers expect has conversation pieces. These guys need a secret police. A KGB. That means a sly, sneaky but ultimately loyal race that will keep its word.


Frigid's idea:

The Teleran's are dead, but death is not the end of existence. In lands beyond sight or reason the dead roam and haunt. The Teleran's make up the core of Dreadful Dead, beings who once knew life and they want it back no matter the cost! There is only one place where they can gain life however, from those who already live. Not all of the Dreadful Dead are Talerans, nor are all Talerans Dreadful Dead. Any creature who was wicked and selfish in life may join the ranks of the Dreadful Dead all it takes is a willingness to destroy the living for their own benefit.

Necromancers use the Dreadful Dead, trading the life of victims or themselves in exchange for power or ancient knowledge.

Standing against them are the Honored Dead, the dead who seek to protect their living descents and what they left behind. The Honored Dead gain strength and power from having living relatives (wiping out a whole people or even a whole family threatens everyone! You may be weakening an entire legion of the Honored Dead!) or by being remembered. Whether it is in song, poem, prayer or even children stories, memory is strength. Also the gods themselves grant strength to the Honored Dead and priests may if favored contact the Honored Dead when seeking information or guidance. The Honored Dead seek to keep the Dreadful Dead from returning to life and to keep Necromancers from summoning them. Woe to the Necromancer who summons a spirit of the Honored Dead by mistake, for there will be no mercy.

[Charon]

Here I gotta oppose though. I don't think you're thinking it all the way through Charon. Look what are these guys going to be afraid of? They're most powerful sorcerers around any outside enemies they simple turn to dust or unleash hellspawn or whatever on. No, what they're afraid of is the Marad.

Wait hear me out. What is the greatest nightmare of any society that rests on a servant/slave class? An internal uprising. These guys don't need hulking giant soldiers expect has conversation pieces. These guys need a secret police. A KGB. That means a sly, sneaky but ultimately loyal race that will keep its word.

That's one possibility. Though I'm not sure where you got that they're powerful sorcerers. These guys were the stock soldiers, the Teleran sure as hell did not share their secrets with them (or the Marad). How I kind of impictured them was this, in your armies you've probably got 20-30 mages, but you still need several thousand troops. These several thousand troops were pretty much all Kainan. With the Teleran not fearing their own casualties anymore and not really giving a shit about the casualties of the Kainan that caused a further dip of decadence (kind of like the Roman Empire had).

The Secret police thing is kinda cool. Though another way to solve the problem of the unified super-soldiers would be that they don't trust one another so there are dozens of fractured clans or states that are keeping a constant eye on each other.

The Teleran's are dead, but death is not the end of existence. In lands beyond sight or reason the dead roam and haunt. The Teleran's make up the core of Dreadful Dead, beings who once knew life and they want it back no matter the cost! There is only one place where they can gain life however, from those who already live. Not all of the Dreadful Dead are Talerans, nor are all Talerans Dreadful Dead. Any creature who was wicked and selfish in life may join the ranks of the Dreadful Dead all it takes is a willingness to destroy the living for their own benefit.

Necromancers use the Dreadful Dead, trading the life of victims or themselves in exchange for power or ancient knowledge.

Standing against them are the Honored Dead, the dead who seek to protect their living descents and what they left behind. The Honored Dead gain strength and power from having living relatives (wiping out a whole people or even a whole family threatens everyone! You may be weakening an entire legion of the Honored Dead!) or by being remembered. Whether it is in song, poem, prayer or even children stories, memory is strength. Also the gods themselves grant strength to the Honored Dead and priests may if favored contact the Honored Dead when seeking information or guidance. The Honored Dead seek to keep the Dreadful Dead from returning to life and to keep Necromancers from summoning them. Woe to the Necromancer who summons a spirit of the Honored Dead by mistake, for there will be no mercy.

I like this idea. Very cool.

[frigidmagi]

Though I'm not sure where you got that they're powerful sorcerers. These guys were the stock soldiers, the Teleran sure as hell did not share their secrets with them (or the Marad). How I kind of impictured them was this, in your armies you've probably got 20-30 mages, but you still need several thousand troops. These several thousand troops were pretty much all Kainan. With the Teleran not fearing their own casualties anymore and not really giving a shit about the casualties of the Kainan that caused a further dip of decadence (kind of like the Roman Empire had).

No, you misunderstand me. My statement was that the Teleran's are such powerful sorcerers that they have no need of a soldier class like the Kainan, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

[Dark Silver]

Since Frigid is poking me to get one....

I'll have a Map (prospective) up tomorrow for the setting. It'll be...rough...and not exactly what the world will look like in the end...but hey...it'll be open for adjustments.