Heroes Who Don't Kill

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:22 pm

We all know that heroes that won't kill often get put into silly contorsions or become de facto accomplaces in crimes because of their refusal to kill even in the most extreme situations. Obviously this is ridiculous and should change, but how far should it go?

Superman shouldn't kill except under extreme circumstance. He is the big blue boy scout and he has so many powers that he doesn't need to use lethal force in most situations.

Batman has killed before (early comics, Dark Knight Returns, Batman Begins) and should do so again when he has to. Batman Begins sets a good precident, having Gordon blow down the railway, sending a half dozen villians to their deaths in order to preserve the city. A villian should not put the Batman in the position of measuring his life against that of innocents. That includes the Jokers repeated killing sprees.

Spiderman should be the one least likely to kill. Less ruthless then the Bat, who is on a grim crusade and more likely to aggonize over his actions than the boyscout.

That's my two cents.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:38 pm

Cyclops should be willing to kill but only when necessary.

Wolverine... Figure it out.

Magneto... Not kill? BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

Thor, He's a fucking Norse God people! Deliver us oh Lord from the Fury of the North Men and all? Hello?

Captain America, this is a tough one, he's a WWII vet so he shouldn't really shrink from taking a life. At the same time he's trying to be a living symbol about everything that is right and good about America, how do you square that with killing?

Iron Man, I think Tony can find it in himself to kill.

Hawkeye, look arrows are fucking sharp.

The Hulk, motherfucker should have a high kill rate from fucking accidents. "I'm sorry Steve, I didn't mean to rip off the bank robbers head, I forgot how frail they were again." And thats when he has the mental power exceeding a 5 year old. The classic Hulk Smash! green boy should be a wondering thermonuclear bomb.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:41 pm

Ultimate Hulk killed 800 New Yorkers in one rampage. He got the death penalty for that (but survived to kick ass on invaders later). Ultimate Captain America is a merciful man, but he fights hard and dirty.

But I'm really talking about heroes who don't kill in their normal incarnations, not guys like Magneto and Wolverine who are already willing to kill.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:43 pm

I was talking about mainline universe Hulk who somehow rampaged through NYC in an Avengers comic... AND NO ONE DIED! Come on that's fucking with my SOD a little.

While I'm here, I think the Green Laterns would try to take the enemy alive to. They seem to be a very police like organization.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:55 pm

Cynical Cat wrote: Superman shouldn't kill except under extreme circumstance. He is the big blue boy scout and he has so many powers that he doesn't need to use lethal force in most situations.

Concurred. Interestingly enough, modern Clark HAS been shown in situations where he was about to/contemplating to kill when outside influence dissuaded him from doing so.

Batman has killed before (early comics, Dark Knight Returns, Batman Begins) and should do so again when he has to. Batman Begins sets a good precident, having Gordon blow down the railway, sending a half dozen villians to their deaths in order to preserve the city.

Um-if I remember Begins correctly by then the only ones on the tram were Ra's and me. Not that I disagree with your general sentiment but I have no idea where you get the half a dozen villains figure from (IOW this is basically a nitpick).

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:59 pm

Um-if I remember Begins correctly by then the only ones on the tram were Ra's and me. Not that I disagree with your general sentiment but I have no idea where you get the half a dozen villains figure from (IOW this is basically a nitpick).

Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't there a bunch of ninjas with you on that train? Also it would be nice if just once you could snap Joker's spine or something. Hard to terrorize from a wheelchair.

Any reason we can't see Nightwing or other members of the bat family doing some of their own killing?

Anyone from the Justice League that remains uncovered?

For myself I think a Flash that kills just wouldn't feel right.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:02 pm

Flash is fast enough he doesn't need to kill. Snatch guns out of hands, dodged bullets, move victims out the way, etcetera.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:09 pm

frigidmagi wrote:
Um-if I remember Begins correctly by then the only ones on the tram were Ra's and me. Not that I disagree with your general sentiment but I have no idea where you get the half a dozen villains figure from (IOW this is basically a nitpick).
Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't there a bunch of ninjas with you on that train?

None that I can remember. The tram fight is exclusively between Ra's and me.

Any reason we can't see Nightwing or other members of the bat family doing some of their own killing?

Dick once DID kill the Joker. Unsurprisingly, being the stupid dick I am in the comics, I reanimated him.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:15 pm

I remember Bats dispossing of some ninjas before the mono on mon with Ras.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:23 pm

Cynical Cat wrote:I remember Bats disposing of some ninjas before the mono on mon with Ras.

Happened on the ground WAY before me entering the train. Once I was onboard it was me and Ra's.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:31 pm

I think your wrong, but it doesn't really matter. Bats would have done the same thing anyway.

Josh · Post by **Josh** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:41 pm

As an aside, comic book discussions with Bats get positively fucking surreal.

Anywho, any heroes who aren't fighting to kill are just asking to get killed themselves. It's an extension of the center mass rule- you don't get fancy in a gunfight.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:41 pm

Cynical Cat wrote:I think your wrong, but it doesn't really matter. Bats would have done the same thing anyway.

There's not a single fight scene on the tram involving anyone but me and Ra's. That being said, I very much suspect Begins me wouldn't have batted an eye about some of Ra's minions dying in the process.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:45 pm

Petrosjko wrote:As an aside, comic book discussions with Bats get positively fucking surreal.

You don't want surreal, don't invite comic book characters to post on your forum.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:17 pm

Cynical Cat wrote: Batman has killed before (early comics, Dark Knight Returns, Batman Begins) and should do so again when he has to.

Minor nitpick: I don't believe Bats killed anybody in Dark Knight Returns. He broke Joker's spine, but Joker finished the job himself to frame Batman. There *was* quite a bit of collateral damage throughout the comic, though, and I haven't read it in awhile, so that's just my take...

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:32 pm

Batman also kills people in the first Batman movies (bombs in chemical factory) and Batman Returns (Incinerates the fire spitting dude).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:41 pm

On top of that in the movies I also kill the Joker, a minimum of one of his minions (Batman), that 'strongest man' dude from the Circus gang (Returns), and Two-Face (Forever) just off the top of my head. Oh and we don't know the one I incinerated in Returns actually died.
And yes I think I DID kill someone in DKR. The guy I machinegunned in the Ridley kidnapping?

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:04 pm

Batman wrote: Oh and we don't know the one I incinerated in Returns actually died.

It would be probably merciful if he died on the stop considering he was burned all over his body. So movie Batman kills period.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:08 pm

I'm reasonably certain I just reaffirmed that.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:28 pm

Yes, but his kills don't count because they're only faceless NPCs.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:37 pm

The Joker and Two-Face are faceless NPCs? I must have missed some MAJOR revamping of the Batverse.

Ali Sama · Post by **Ali Sama** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:33 am

superman killed the kryptonians(zod i belive) who ravaged and killed the alexander luthor who created supergirl(they called her matrix)
One character, son goku, i belive has only killed one person. Majin buu. Who he wished back to life. He has hunted for food etc. But i don't belive he actually killed any villan except for buu. Oh. The guy who absorbed energy from him exploded due to overload. so 2.
Has daredevil ever killed anyone? I don't remember.

Narsil · Post by **Narsil** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 12:28 pm

Goku has killed quite a bit in Dragonball, before DBZ began. He been shown to be quite open to the possibility killing in several of the DBZ movies (though still hesitant).

He kills (in the movies) several of Garlic Jr.'s henchmen, that strange incapacitated cyborg Dr. Wheel bloke (and henchmen), Turles (and henchmen), Lord Slug (and henchmen), Kula (Freiza's brother), three other androids, Janemba and Hildegarn.

Now I shall go and kick myself for knowing anything about DBZ... I should never have gotten into that crappy anime; but I was twelve years old at the time, mind. Crappy explosions and wanky fight scenes are endearing at that age.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:24 pm

If DBZ characters kill, they shouldn't be brought up because this is a thread about characters who don't kill. And then there is the good taste reasons . . .

Ali Sama · Post by **Ali Sama** » Sun Nov 19, 2006 8:13 am

Narsil wrote:Goku has killed quite a bit in Dragonball, before DBZ began. He been shown to be quite open to the possibility killing in several of the DBZ movies (though still hesitant).

He kills (in the movies) several of Garlic Jr.'s henchmen, that strange incapacitated cyborg Dr. Wheel bloke (and henchmen), Turles (and henchmen), Lord Slug (and henchmen), Kula (Freiza's brother), three other androids, Janemba and Hildegarn.

Now I shall go and kick myself for knowing anything about DBZ... I should never have gotten into that crappy anime; but I was twelve years old at the time, mind. Crappy explosions and wanky fight scenes are endearing at that age.

I am sorry for not being specific. I was talking canon dragon ball, which is the manga. He only killed buu. He thought he had killed tao pai pai but the guy was still alive. Actually. He killed twice though he did not want to. piccolo sr, and buu. the movies don;t count really. Everyeone else in dragon ball with a few expectin's dont' care about killing.

Cynical Cat wrote:If DBZ characters kill, they shouldn't be brought up because this is a thread about characters who don't kill. And then there is the good taste reasons . . .

people in dragon ball kill. Not goku though. HE tends to forgive almost everyone. This has been shown with his worst enemies. Picolo, vegeta etc.
If you look at all the major bad guys. The ones who died(in the comic). ONly 2 where offed by goku and he was very sad/reluctant to do so. Ma Sr(piccolo's dad) and Buu(who was reserected as a human child, given a secod chance. He forgave and let live everyone else. Trunks killed freezer, gohan killed cell, the ginyuuu squad was massacered by vegeta. It's never goky who does the killing. Kuririn was going to off vegeta when goku told him that he should let him go and that killing was wrong.

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