To which extent does space AWACS make sense?

[Batman]

Yeah, I know, it should be SWACS but frankly that just sounds silly, and DRADIS was already taken.
The advantages of a a dedicated sensor platform today are pretty obvious.more powerful radar thus greater range, and more room for computers so better signal analysis capability and more room for communications gear to make use of the information.
I just wondered, given the advances made in electronics since the concept came up (leave alone the ones to come in the next-say, 1000 years or so?) and the fact that the lightspeed limit puts a cap on how much more useful a more poweful and thusly longer range radar is (knowing what the enemy was doing 10 minutes ago is not necessarily all that useful information, especially if it'll take you hours to get there anyway).
Would, for example, a force limited to C speed sensors and single figure g acellerations really benefit from a dedicated sensor bird?

[rhoenix]

From a single, or even a few? Probably not.

For proper coverage, you'd need a networked fleet of drones to extend sensor range. The drones would be much more easily replaced if lost or destroyed, and expand sensor capabilities quite nicely with enough of them.

[Josh]

Jack Campbell does an interesting rendition of relativistic space combat in his Lost Fleet series. Mind you, they go well beyond single-g acceleration due to magical inertial dampers, but they generally top out around .1c or so.

I agree with Rhoenix, but then everyone knows how I am about the automation.

[rhoenix]

Well, going by current military trends, active military personnel are each hefty investments in terms of training and equipment, even in an interplanetary civilization of trillions.

Putting several of them on a ship just for scouting doesn't make economical sense at the point that a much larger and reliable fleet of drones is much cheaper to maintain.

[Batman]

The crews on AWACS birds aren't just for watching the radar screens. Remember what the 'C' stands for? The collecting and relaying sensor data drones can do just as well, no argument from me. Telling people what to do with it, however, would I think require something a lot more sophisticated.

Nevertheless, as my question was mostly about what if any advantages a dedicated sensor bird would have WRT sensor capabilities the answer seems to 'none, really', so I can scratch those from the roster.

[rhoenix]

The crews on AWACS birds aren't just for watching the radar screens. Remember what the 'C' stands for? The collecting and relaying sensor data drones can do just as well, no argument from me. Telling people what to do with it, however, would I think require something a lot more sophisticated.

Keep in mind, just as easily as one might set up filters for one's incoming email, filters can also be set for the data the drones receive, and collating all the drones' data automatically is certainly not outside the realm of possibility at this level of technology. With a proper setup, they can send alerts when they find stuff they're programmed to find interesting, though all will be logged for future reference.

[Batman]

I guess I just don't trust AI all that much. My experience with AI is admittely limited to games, but in there, it routinely stinks. Um-the primary mission objective is to recover that fighter intact. How about you do not blow it up?

[rhoenix]

I guess I just don't trust AI all that much. My experience with AI is admittely limited to games, but in there, it routinely stinks.

Well, they're only as smart as people make them, after all. Once you're at this level of tech, having unreliable forms of computer intelligence is... very unlikely at best, especially after just what's been observed over the past ten years. Given this level of tech, it could simply be a well programmed drone program, and left at that.

Trouble only arises when you try to make it smart enough to make fuzzy decisions on its own, and able to modify it's programming without properly checking the ramifications beforehand.

Um-the primary mission objective is to recover that fighter intact. How about you do not blow it up?

Simple. Since space is relatively empty, locating all pieces of said fighter (matched against a database of known materials and parts used to make it) with a drone fleet, and carefully extracting each piece into a holding pod would be easy. Managed properly, it would only need to be overseen by a human operator sending instructions remotely.

[Batman]

You knew exactly what I meant. The mission objective was to recover the fighter intact...and yet the computer pilots blow it up. After having been told to merely disable the ship.

[rhoenix]

You knew exactly what I meant.

No - but with this clarification, I do now.

The mission objective was to recover the fighter intact...and yet the computer pilots blow it up. After having been told to merely disable the ship.

Ah. So the scenario is "send out drone fighters to engage and disable an enemy fighter, then retrieve enemy fighter and bring it back to base."

This is only really a challenge if the drones aren't equipped properly to achieve their objective. Artificial EMP bursts work quite nicely to disable most electronics-driven stuff, so this presumably is what they'd be outfitted with. A few drones would likely be lost to enemy fire before the craft could be disabled, but likely not many. Once the craft is disabled, the drones then tow it back to base using tow cables, or tractor beams if they're practical for use on ships in this universe.

[Josh]

Well one, the AI in the game may not have been given a filter for 'do not shoot', but also if you're dealing with space-type speed I'd sooner trust a computer to execute a precise job like that over a human and a human's twitchy reflexes.

[Stofsk]

Good luck ever having anything other than computers deal with that kind of stuff. I'm just sayin'.

[Batman]

The computer pilot AI in Freespace seems to be a bit on the wonky side. Telling my wingmen to disable the ship, they disable the ship just fine-and then some idiot blows it up. I tell them to ignore it, we get rid of the enemy fighters (well they do, mostly(, then tell them to disable the fighter, and presto-mission accomplished (and before you ask why I didn't disable the fighter myself-I'm a really sucky pilot and an even worse shot).
And yeah, for space-type speeds the computer calling the shots is the way to go, but that also pulls out the rug from under me having people in those fighters, and I'm not having that.

[rhoenix]

Well, there is an issue with drones that goes above and beyond ECM/ECCM, which is hacking.

Given two more or less equivalent sides, both of which have the majority of their forces being drones, tactics for disabling or even subverting enemy drone fleets would very much become a military tactic. How exactly this goes down is always a contest between "well, let's add this to the program to prevent x" and "how do we get around x and make it do y?"

That right there is actually a good argument for having manned fighters, and human infantry. I mean, all it would take is one proper battle where one side got their drones hacked and used against them, and things would change pretty fast.

[Batman]

Except wouldn't that also apply to recon drones?

[rhoenix]

Except wouldn't that also apply to recon drones?

Why yes, yes it would. It all depends on what sort of universe you have.

If drones are secure enough, then hacking is always going to be an uphill climb and a real accomplishment if you can actually manage to disable a single drone, let alone compromise one.

However, if the universe is a bit more open (a la Eclipse Phase), where anyone who knows where to look and some knowledge beforehand can wreak serious havoc on a military drone network, drones would likely not be used as mainline units.

[Batman]

I don't have a universe. Well not much of one at any rate. What I've got is fighters limited to single figure g acellerations limited to lightspeed sensors and the question of wether or not they would benefit from having a Space Hawkeye.

[rhoenix]

I don't have a universe. Well not much of one at any rate. What I've got is fighters limited to single figure g acellerations limited to lightspeed sensors and the question of wether or not they would benefit from having a Space Hawkeye.

If there's no such things as drones in your universe beyond as supplemental units for other craft (which might honestly be easier for you), then yes.

The Hawkeye would also be responsible for the drone sensor net in-field, making it an invaluable addition to any mission requiring good sensors.

[Batman]

My main concern was wether or not I'd need to figure Hawkeye style craft into the non-fighter complement of my carriers, really.

[rhoenix]

My main concern was wether or not I'd need to figure Hawkeye style craft into the non-fighter complement of my carriers, really.

Given that sort of scenario, yes.

[Batman]

While I wouldn't be particularly surprised about being wrong, I don't as of yet see why that would necessarily be the case.

[rhoenix]

While I wouldn't be particularly surprised about being wrong, I don't as of yet see why that would necessarily be the case.

Why?

[Batman]

Well given the lightspeed limit and there being no range limit on radar (besides the obvious) nor the damned planet getting in the way being a problem, I think that it's a reasonable conclusion that space forces under those conditions don't need dedicated sensor birds.

[rhoenix]

Well given the lightspeed limit and there being no range limit on radar (besides the obvious) nor the damned planet getting in the way being a problem, I think that it's a reasonable conclusion that space forces under those conditions don't need dedicated sensor birds.

Again, depends on the universe.

A "stealth" ship could conceivably be made by using low acceleration and a refrigerated hull to nullify most emissions (especially thermal) - but, they might give off a certain electromagnetic signature that AWACS ships can locate.

It's up to you how you set up the universe's move and countermove. Just be aware that when a nation takes a particular action or goes in a specific direction in terms of warfare, other nations will adapt to compensate and overcome those tactics.

[Batman]

I don't want to set up a universe, I just want to design ships. I know this may be an abberation but I have absolutely no interest in storytelling. My one and only contribution to the User Fiction part of this board is the result of a lost bet.