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Frankly, I'm not sure whether this one should be put on "Science Fiction" or "Theosophy and Philosophy", so I just put it here. Please move this elsewhere if necessary.

**SPOILER WARNING** (for those who haven't watch Star Trek: The Final Frontier)

Well, I just remember ST:TFF. In the movie, the Vulcan Sybok (who happened to be Spock's brother) recruited followers by removing their pain. Yes, emotional pain, childhood trauma, etc. Then, after boarding the Enterprise, Sybox also "recruited" Kirk's crew by the same method, and eventually the officers too. Doctor Bones suffered an endless self-guilt for secretly performing euthanasia on his dying father, and Sybok removed the pain. Spock also suffered the pain of being an outcast (being half-human and such), and Sybok removed the pain too.

And eventually, it was Kirk's turn. But Kirk refused; saying that pain is actually part of us --the thing that makes us who we are, and if we lose the pain, then we actually lose ourselves.

Here's from the movie script

KIRK: About what? Thay I've made the wrong choices in my life? That I went left when I should've gone right? I know what my weaknesses are. I don't need Sybok to take me on a tour of them.

McCOY: If you'd just unbend and allow yourself --

KIRK: To be brainwashed by this con man?

McCOY: I was wrong. This "con man" took away my pain!

KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us -- the things that make us who we are. If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain.

I think Kirk could have other, stronger reason of not wanting Sybox to remove the pain, because Sybox had hidden intention of taking over the Enterprise (to bring him to "God").

But now here's the question: if Sybox offers to remove your pain just for the sake of it (not taking over your ship, not recruiting you as his follower, etc), would you accept? Would you like to have your pain and trauma removed? Or would you rather agree with Kirk, that our pain is actually what made us, and removing our pain means losing ourselves?

Without pain, we have virtually no reason to avoid things. We have no reasons to improve ourselves. As unbearable as it can be sometimes, we do need it.

To have pain is to be human. Both from a physical and a mental prespective.

For example, with no pain, you wouldn't recognise an ear infection untill the entire ear looked bad, with pain you feel it and go to a doctor. Examples are numerus for this.

Mentally, pain allows us to feel bad when we've done something wrong. Havn't you ever felt something when you did something that hurt a friend?

My pain is as much a part of me has my limbs. Will you offer to "free" me of my hands and feet next?

What Frigid said. We are in part defined by what we've suffered. Pain has driven home more than one lesson that I'd probably have been too stupid to learn otherwise.

Frankly I'm not really sure about how should I take the Sybok dillemma: without my pains, I probably have married someone and living happily ever after instead of becoming a confirmed bachelor. And the latest heartbreak was nothing but the tip of an iceberg.

naw... it makes us individuals...

and gives us things to moan about in the dungeon

LIFE IS PAIN

I found Spock's reaction to be just as illuminating as Kirk's. Spock allowed Sybock to 'tempt' him as it were, but at the end of it Spock maturely chastises his half-brother, telling him he had already come into account with his pain. In a way it is a similar reaction to Kirk, although Kirk's reaction was more emotional and hostile, while Spock's was more intellectual. (which fits both their characters, of course)

McCoy had a moment of weakness, but he showed a strength of character by refusing to join Sybok even after he had 'cured' him of his pain. What Kirk said is true: you can't wave a magic wand and rid yourself of the things that plague you. Having said that, I would allow Sybok to try. Pain - whether it be physical or emotional - is there to show you something is wrong. You're bleeding, so you need a bandaid or bandage. You're depressed, so you need to find what is wrong and excise it. Or come to terms with it and leave it behind you.

Many writers and artists have commented on the human condition, noting that at it's heart we are born to suffer. There is an element of fatalism in that attitude, but another way to look at it is: if suffering is common then happiness is rare, and thus should be of paramount concern. Pain can be crippling, which is why whatever is causing it should be fixed. That task is an arduous road of self-discovery.

I wouldn't say we're born to suffer any more than we're born to be happy or any other greater purpose. There is pain in life, no doubt, and more in some than in others, but I don't believe in any greater meaning or reasoning behind it.

I do believe that a lot of lessons in life really only sink in when they've hit you square in the nuts, unfortunately, and that's why I say that our pain in part makes us what we are.

Petrosjko wrote:I wouldn't say we're born to suffer any more than we're born to be happy or any other greater purpose. There is pain in life, no doubt, and more in some than in others, but I don't believe in any greater meaning or reasoning behind it.

What is meant by the term 'the human condition' is that from the moment we are born we are fated to die. That's what I meant by suffering.

I do believe that a lot of lessons in life really only sink in when they've hit you square in the nuts, unfortunately, and that's why I say that our pain in part makes us what we are.

I agree.

The Village Idiot wrote:LIFE IS PAIN

Anyone who says otherwise is selling something!

I'm not convinced that pain is automatically good because it's "part of who we are." True, I wouldn't be who I am without the pain I've endured; but I'm not sure that being who I am is a particularly extraordinary thing. I wouldn't let anyone take my conscience away, or my intellect; but the pain from things that happened in the past? I'd love to get rid of that, and be someone else as a result.