LibriumArcana.Games

One of my few friends was talking to me about potential boyfriend replacements (she has apparently finally conceded the previous one was useless) and she started listing off candidates that she discussed with her mother.

Well, I was among them, and it seems I was first choice of her entire family (I've known them all for years), but she said what might have been the most irrational thing I've heard all day regarding the prospect: "I've known you too long to date you".

My WTFometer peaked into the WTF level rather heavily as I attempted to figure out how the hell that is a statement that makes any bloody sense at all.

I concluded she must have been lying: I can think of only one value in the set of all rational explainations that could explain that: perhaps she fears a break up would be disasterous, and does not want to risk losing one of her few useful friends. However, that explaination seems unlikely to me.

But, with some more research into the subject, I learned many people do indeed feel this way, and also, looking through more of what I know about her, there is significant evidence showing that she does indeed subscribe to this "friends not lovers" bullshit.


Well, I am wondering why the hell anyone would feel that way. It seems to me that a friend would be a greatly superior choice, seeing that there is already an established connection of trust, familarity, and understanding. Am I wrong about that? Are these people just liars who use that as an excuse to dismiss candidates while the real reason is something entirely unrelated?

Because if it goes wrong romantically, you can lose the platonic friendship as well.

There's also the "He's like a Brother to me! It would just be... Weird! Like Incest or Something!"

What does Just Friends really mean?

It means; "I don't just want you to mourn the loss; I want to remind you of it every day. I want you to suffer. I want you to envy. I want you to die slowly, a bit at a time. And I want you to smile and thank me for it."

That and you know too much about her and know her too well. New boyfriends need to be 'broken in' apparently and you being forewarned and thus forearmed against her quirks and habits, her pushable buttons and such takes away from her ability to manipulate you. You'd be a threat to her dominance.

But women will tell you everything in the book really. I want to just be friends. It's too weird. You're like my brother. It'll ruin the friendship. I don't deserve a guy like you. You're too nice. You're too good of a person. Etc etc etc.

Bitter, who me? No, I've never heard any of this before...

*applauds bitterness*
I think the shittiest turndown I've ever gotten was ON A DATE. We were watching a movie, she go ta call, and after the call looked at me, and said "Oh yeah, I have a different guy I'm interested in, I just didn't have time to tell you." Like how the woman sat next to me every day in English 107.

There's one for the WTFometer.

HOWEVER, I will say this:
Social Incest is BAD. Maybe not in the legal or genetic sense, but I guarantee that 9 times out of ten, the veritable 'shit' will 'go down'.

True story of my parents.

They were both English teachers at the same school in Japan, and one night after a long day of teaching they were in the bar. They were good friends, and that fateful night my dad had gotten really drunk off some strong Japanese beer. He didn't ask her out so much as he told her that he likes her a lot, and so they should start dating. My mom said something like, "But we're good friends, and if this doesn't work out, I don't want to lose your friendship." His reply: "We're dating, or the friendship is off!"

Thank you, Japanese beer, for contributing to my existance.

(I hope this was helpful.)

It means; "I don't just want you to mourn the loss; I want to remind you of it every day. I want you to suffer. I want you to envy. I want you to die slowly, a bit at a time. And I want you to smile and thank me for it."

See, I dont see things this way. Yes, oftentimes this is what happens. However, the person is still your friend, they still care about you deeply, they cant help it if they for example, arent sexually attracred to you, or are too afraid of taking the various risks involved to be with you. It is not malicious or mean.

But to be completely honest, if you love someone, they are worth it. Every little bit of suffering is worth it just to see that person smile. Every lonely night, every day of gut-wrenching pain that feels like your heart is being yanked out by that cultist in Temple of Doom. All worth it for their smile, for a hug, to know they are safe and happy in their own lives.

And you never know, they may come around someday. The chances of this may vary of course, from person to person and circumstance to circumstance. But sometimes, it is worth it. In my reconning

All a matter of perspective of course. Me? I am a romantic sap and am speaking from experience as well.

I can say i've never played the 'it'll ruin out friendship' card. I have used the 'You're like a brother to me' line. But that's because I've gotten used to the fact that most of my guy friends think of me as 'one of the guys' or as a 'little sister.'

I can say that a lot of girls use these excuses as a way of letting you down easy. Espeically if we've known you for a long time. We don't want to hurt you or comprimise the relationship we already have. There is a big differenace between a frindship an a relationship. A VERY complicated difference. Where we can see where beining in a realtionship with a good friend might be perfect... we also know how bad it might be if it ends. Particularly if it ends badly. Girls value frindship more than relationships alot of the time b/c we know thoes are forever.

I'm not saying that some girls don't use them as a escape route and just to NOT date you, but my expriance is that most girls are guninely worried about the friendship.

least I think that's what i mean.

On a side note, never tell a guy he's like a brother to you. Seriously, just don't. Unless he's dumb enough to say you're like a sister to him. And I mean say it verbal while sober.

Why?

It would take awhile to explain, but the short form is it's like being kicked in the nuts.

As opposed to being 'one of the guys' or the 'really cool guy with boobs' or 'you're like a little sister to me'?

how is that different?

Destructionator XV wrote:I concluded she must have been lying: I can think of only one value in the set of all rational explainations that could explain that: perhaps she fears a break up would be disasterous, and does not want to risk losing one of her few useful friends. However, that explaination seems unlikely to me.

Pardon my bluntness, but I think she's bullshitting you; plain and simple. It seems that she's actually not attracted to you, while the whole "friends not lovers" thing is just an excuse.

Destructionator XV wrote:Are these people just liars who use that as an excuse to dismiss candidates while the real reason is something entirely unrelated?

Most likely: YES. Based on my own experience, people make various excuses when rejecting someone; friendship just happens to be most frequently used excuse.

Destructionator XV wrote:Well, I am wondering why the hell anyone would feel that way. It seems to me that a friend would be a greatly superior choice, seeing that there is already an established connection of trust, familarity, and understanding. Am I wrong about that?

No, you're not wrong about that. My latest serious relationship (which turned to be my biggest heartbreak in 2004) was started with a friendship. When I was having the (emotional) affair with a co-worker, it was also started from a very close friendship until we realized the surpressed chemistry between us. Some years ago I also had short-lived romance with a girl that was previously my friend, and we're still close friends even after she's married now.

So yes, friendship can definitely turn into great romance, and based on my experience, it happened quite often. The nicest thing about friendship turned love is when you shared the laughter with her, and suddenly both of you realize that there's something definitely more between you two.

Unfortunately, in your case, it only means that she's lying and making up the "friends not lovers" excuse to reject you. So my advice is stay away from her and keep concentrating on other things in life.

That's not saying there's no risk of ruined friendship if the relationship breaks up. Yes, my ex-girlfriend (not the latest one, but the one who's already married now as I've mentioned above) and I are still close friends, but we started to be friends again after the chemistry had gone. Before that, we stayed away from each other as far as possible to avoid unecessary pain.

However, the risk I mentioned above does NOT support her excuse whatsoever. Of course there's always risk of losing friendship, but based on my experience, when people are really in love with each other, it's most likely that they're willing to take the risks, including the risk of losing friendship if they were previously friends.

So like I said, just stay away from her. If she's mature enough, and if she really cares about your feelings, she will understand that keep getting close with her will only hurt you. Ergo: if she's really your friend, then she should understand that you need to stay away from her. It is completely human for you to stay away, now let's see if she understands or not.

On the other hand, if she insists that you should stay with her as a friend despite her rejection ("I don't love you, but I want you to stay because I need you as friend"), then it's a sign that she's a self-centered bitch who expects you to keep getting hurt for her's sake. If she expects you to make the sacrifice despite she doesn't love you back, then avoid her like a plague.

Comrade Tortoise wrote:But to be completely honest, if you love someone, they are worth it. Every little bit of suffering is worth it just to see that person smile.

Don't mean to be bitter, Ben (but hey, wait, of course I AM bitter ), but based on my experience, a one-sided love is never worth it. Ever. I've been through all those things before, and no amount of suffering is worth it if the love is one-sided.

Rukia wrote:As opposed to being 'one of the guys' or the 'really cool guy with boobs' or 'you're like a little sister to me'?

how is that different?

Its not, you dont like it neither do we, treat others as you wish to be treated and all that stuff.

Don't mean to be bitter, Ben (but hey, wait, of course I AM bitter Wink ), but based on my experience, a one-sided love is never worth it. Ever. I've been through all those things before, and no amount of suffering is worth it if the love is one-sided.

A lot of that depends on your frame of reference. Your brain has a remarkable ability to frame that sort of thing so it doesnt hurt (or hurts less). And I suppose it also depends on your values. When I care about someone, there is no reasonable length I will not go for them, so long as it is within my power. (and I will MAKE it in my power if it is possible) (IE. If I have to take a bullet, or donate a couple organs, I will do it gladly, but things which I physically cannot do I physically cannot do)

Comrade Tortoise wrote:A lot of that depends on your frame of reference. Your brain has a remarkable ability to frame that sort of thing so it doesnt hurt (or hurts less). And I suppose it also depends on your values. When I care about someone, there is no reasonable length I will not go for them, so long as it is within my power. (and I will MAKE it in my power if it is possible) (IE. If I have to take a bullet, or donate a couple organs, I will do it gladly, but things which I physically cannot do I physically cannot do)

Well, I have to admit I've been screwed before, BIG TIME, so I tend to get pessimistic (and paranoid) when it goes to such lovey dopey stuff.

I think the question is not whether we're able to make the sacrifice for someone we care, but whether we're willing to do so. For example, I already took the pain for someone I love (who doesn't love me back... or does she? I'll never know.), and it seems I'm able to do it again in the future. However, whether I'm willing to do such thing again it's another thing. In fact, I'm pretty much tired of sacrifying myself for someone who doesn't love me back.

I don't know whether Adam want to take that route or not. Some people actually do; taking all the pain and such for someone who doesn't love them back. I guess it's still ok as long as they don't get screwed up.

Rukia wrote:As opposed to being 'one of the guys' or the 'really cool guy with boobs' or 'you're like a little sister to me'?

how is that different?

It's really not. In high school, there was a girl who was part of my circle of friends who at one point expressed interest in dating me. I turned her down telling her that I didn't think we were that terribly compatable. Sure we could hang out okay, but I didn't think anything beyond that would work. Part of this was due to the fact that I knew her, and I knew deep down a relationship of any meaning wouldn't work, because you can't have a healthy relationship based on "I did this for you, you have to do this for me" style bartering, and it gets worse when that person's idea of a "good time" is so dramatically different from your own.

It's not that I didn't want to risk losing the friendship - she had dated other guys in my circle before and we were all still friends, but rather I just really didn't think it would work out. I let her know why and we moved on. More people should do that, period.

Mayabird wrote:True story of my parents.

They were both English teachers at the same school in Japan, and one night after a long day of teaching they were in the bar. They were good friends, and that fateful night my dad had gotten really drunk off some strong Japanese beer. He didn't ask her out so much as he told her that he likes her a lot, and so they should start dating. My mom said something like, "But we're good friends, and if this doesn't work out, I don't want to lose your friendship." His reply: "We're dating, or the friendship is off!"

That sounds so sweet.

Sorry, but yeah. It's the whole "I'm not attracted to you" bit, wrapped up in the standard female supposed-to-spare-your-feelings package. Though the method she used seems to be twisting the knife more than a bit("I like you! But we're still not happening!").

I'm still a novice in these ways though. Been lucky enough to get outright honesty from girls most of my life.

And another thing.. what if you honestly feel like family?

I have one guy friend in particular that is like a big brother to me. We never had any kind of romantic attachments, we are just really close in a bother/sister way. Plain and simple... sometimes it really is because you think of them as family and they share the same feeling.

Rukia wrote:And another thing.. what if you honestly feel like family?

I have one guy friend in particular that is like a big brother to me. We never had any kind of romantic attachments, we are just really close in a bother/sister way. Plain and simple... sometimes it really is because you think of them as family and they share the same feeling.

Well it won't be a problem if the feeling (or the lack thereof) is mutual, but when one side start to have one-sided feelings for the other, things are getting a little bit more complicated.

Now I believe there should be maturity and understanding between the two, to keep things as fair as possible. I don't know what others may think, but "I don't love you, but I want you to keep staying with me" is a little bit unfair. Once I had a close friend who fell in love with me, while I didn't return her love. She started keeping some distance after discovering that the feeling is not mutual (especially when she found out I was romantically involved with her cousin), because it actually hurt her to stay close with me. So instead of insisting her to stay, I chose to let her go, because it would be unfair to her, and it would be selfish, if I insist to keep the close friendship between us.

Yes, it is unfortunate to lose a friend (especially a close one), but sometimes it is not anybody's fault if the friendship is being broken. What's important, IMO, is to keep things as fair as possible.

ok....i have to put my two cents in here.

Did anyone ever consider that this girl is just scared shitless? I mean, I've been there. It's hard to trust someone to accept you when they don't know everything about you...and you say that you do. I had a friend who knew me better than anyone, he could finish my sentences. I developed feelings. I think he did too, but I never spoke up because I was scared. When you start a new relationship, sometimes you get rejected on little things, things that really don't matter. But if this guy would have rejected me when they knew my secrets, my soul so to speak, how would I have felt then? I'm just saying that maybe you need to cut this girl some slack. She could just be scared that she's not good enough. It's harder to trust someone to accept you when they know all of you, when they know you completely, becuase then, your whole self is being judged not just what you chose to show them.

ok...that's my two cents. In any case......Good Luck!

It could be very very true.

I told that to my bestfriend's parents.

Brendan, and I have known each other for years, and his parents hinted around the idea that we date. And I told them plain out that I would rather keep him as a friend, that risk fucking it all up badly.

I hardly speak to any of my ex's. And i didn't want that from my best friend. I couldn't take screwing it up, or him hurting me that way. So it was just better to say no. We both moved on about it, and joke about it once and a while. But in the end I believe we did the right thing. He's still my best friend, and we get together all the time.

It's nice to have someone that you can hang out with and there is no pressure, and he is truethfully like an older brother to me.



So i think there could definatly be alot of truth there. And it makes alot of sense. Maybe she doesn't want to lose you as a friend. Or maybe she's afraid you'll hurt her in a romantic relationship.


Needless to say, I wouldn't gun her down right away just because ya'll have had some experiences with that line...


Although for the record... I will add in that the "lets just be friends" is a recipe for disaster.

As little as this helps....In ALL the old couples that come into the hospitol, that have been married for 50+ years. Every last one says.....I married my best friend....so when there wasnt love, there was friend ship, and when that was strained....we remebered that we love eachother.

So they all tell me, marry someone you can be around constantly and not in the "love" sence (Ex. pawing on eachother, hung up...., physically involved...ect) then you will have a relationship that will survive anything.


But in my life....they all like the friends not lovers, or your like a brother, all that happy fun shit. So you slam your dick in the door...get over it and move the fuck on because she wont come around no matter how hard you try. Right Shark Bait.

It seems to me that a friend would be a greatly superior choice, seeing that there is already an established connection of trust, familarity, and understanding. Am I wrong about that? Are these people just liars who use that as an excuse to dismiss candidates while the real reason is something entirely unrelated?

If she says "I don't want to date you because you're my friend," there's probably more to it than that. Personally, being friends with someone would never be a reason, in itself, for me not to date them. However, I might give someone the "I just like you as a friend" line in certain circumstances. I'll attempt to illustrate this to you with the examples of two guy friends.

Guy #1 has a lot in common with me. He's scientific, smart, a physics major, and an atheist. I can relate to him mostly on an intellectual level. A small sampling of our typical conversation topics includes: the Flying Spaghetti Monster, my horror at discovering Darwin's Black Box in the science section of the bookstore and subsequent attempts to relocate it to the fiction section, the insane workload of physics students, stupid people of any sort, atheistic books I think he needs to read in his copious free time, President Bush's disregard for the Bill of Rights, and the crazy street preacher who stands outside near a classroom building once a week and tells everyone they're going to hell. However, I would never date Guy #1 in a million years. Although he knows how to think and argue, he's physically unattractive and emotionally and socially inept, and he would have little to offer me in a relationship.

Guy #2 and I met through a mutual friend. I quickly learned quite a few interesting things about him: he did sword fighting (not fencing) for fun, he was very smart despite an occasional tendency to be so open-minded his brains dropped out, he believed in God but hated organized religion, he... had had a girlfriend for two and a half years. Ouch. However, he let on that he had been planning to break up with her for a while, and within a week he had done so. At any rate, I thought we'd just end up as very close platonic friends until he finally asked me out a week ago. I didn't hesitate to say yes, because of what you described: I already knew him a bit. I knew he wouldn't intentionally be an asshole to me, I knew he was honest, and I knew he could be in a successful long-term relationship. So we just started dating, and everything's going great so far.

Had Guy #1 asked me out - and I do know that he wanted to date me, because he was disappointed when he found out I was going out with #2 - I might well have given him a similar excuse to what your lady friend gave you: something along the lines of "I don't want to damage our friendship," which would really be bullshit. But when Guy #2 wanted to date me, I had no reservations whatsoever.

I guess this is just a long-winded way of saying that Kreshna is absolutely right. I don't believe that friendship is a reason in itself for her to reject you. Something else is going on.