LibriumArcana.Games

Is it me or are these things, and World of Warcraft especially, getting to be very scary in how seriously people take them? I mean I know people who's sole interaction, with a flesh and blood girlfriend no less, was conducted almost exclusively in WoW. I know people that play for hours every day, to the detriment of every aspect of their life. For that matter I know people that log in not because they want to play but because they have "guild responsibilities" they have to take care.

And of course they pay out the nose for all of this with ongoing subscriber fees.

These games are a peculiarly effective time trap and it works. I admit to playing some conventional games a lot. But these things are an order of magnitude greater. And I have got wonder how it is people get so damned addicted and locked into a mindset. I getting gaming but these people seem to live for this. And of course get offended at my continuing puzzlement and well pity/disdain for the sort of 24/7 lifestyle they seem to have grown up.

Maybe it's just me but these things almost seem like pixelated drugs to these people.

I agree. Today's youths are spending way too much time in their virtual reality worlds.

But then, it's kind of hard to blame them. Who wants to live in the real world of uncontrolled chaos, disorder and pain, when you can 'live' in a virtual world where you can play as a 'god' or whatnot.

I'm all for playing games and being online myself, but you have to have a limit if you want a real life.

I play out of boredom. I don't feel that I "have" to be online to help people. If I am, then I do, if not, then deal with it like everyone else.

And while yes, I do look forward to coming home from work and playing, I also look forward to a lot of things (including other games that are not RPG) like that. This is just speaking for myself.

This is all so familair... So utterly familiar...

OMFG! People take Doom too seriously! They're growing up to be killers!

OMFG! People take Dungeons and Dragons too seriously!

Continue ad naeseum back to Socrates. There's a chunk of society who will be easily addicted to things. There are segments who will only indulge a little. And then there's the chunk that will go wide-eyed and paranoid over this minority.

Eh... Least it's not crack or cocaine. Seriously let them play WoW that much if they want, they're not hurting anyone else and it's their lives.

SirNitram wrote:This is all so familair... So utterly familiar...

OMFG! People take Doom too seriously! They're growing up to be killers!

OMFG! People take Dungeons and Dragons too seriously!

Continue ad naeseum back to Socrates. There's a chunk of society who will be easily addicted to things. There are segments who will only indulge a little. And then there's the chunk that will go wide-eyed and paranoid over this minority.

I never said it would make them killers, so don't put words in my mouth. Nor would I consider myself generally wide eyed or paranoid. Perhaps a bit wide eyed but that's because of the lengths people go over this sometimes.

What I was wondering (and to a degree ranting) about just what's the future of all this. After all it's a growing trend and it seems like a pecularly mixed bag; gaming has undeniably contributed to our laziness. So what does the never-ending MMORPG going to mean? What's it going to mean for the sub-set of gamers that play these constantly?

frigidmagi wrote:Eh... Least it's not crack or cocaine. Seriously let them play WoW that much if they want, they're not hurting anyone else and it's their lives.

I didn't say I believe they should be stopped.

I believe that certain people should at least try to exercise some bloody control over themselves. This is a sentiment brought on by simple observation of a family member who suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, and can't stop playing the bloody thing (World of Warcraft) because of it. He does, however, seem to be mild in relation to some other people who play it, as, despite his addictions, he still retains the knowledge that 'it's only a game'.

But it still needs to be dealt with in that regard, because he suffers for it.

Lord Stormbringer wrote:I never said it would make them killers, so don't put words in my mouth.

Work on that literacy. The only sentence with 'killers' is in the context of the Doom Paranoia.

Nor would I consider myself generally wide eyed or paranoid. Perhaps a bit wide eyed but that's because of the lengths people go over this sometimes.

You declare them 'scary' because obsessive personalities obsess. They also obsess over perfect scores in arcade games, pen and paper games, and a host of things. That sounds pretty bloody paranoid to me.

As for the wide eyed, I fail to see the shock. There's obsessive personality types. There have been for a long damn time, probably since we were still deciding if rocks were edible.

What I was wondering (and to a degree ranting) about just what's the future of all this. After all it's a growing trend and it seems like a pecularly mixed bag; gaming has undeniably contributed to our laziness. So what does the never-ending MMORPG going to mean? What's it going to mean for the sub-set of gamers that play these constantly?

The 'never ending' MMORPG is no different from a 'never ending' tabletop. This 'gaming has made us lazy' claim is certainly far from undeniable, I'd love to see some proof of causation, but I'm doubting anything reliable will come up.

The obsessive component of society was destined to obsess over something. They were almost definately going to develop highly antisocial traits. The end result is alot of money for the MMORPG companies on top of the casual gamers.

Dakarne wrote:But it still needs to be dealt with in that regard, because he suffers for it.

The only person who can deal with it is him. Because it's alot deeper than the game, it's an ease of becoming obsessed. Lock him out of computers his whole life(That'd be a hell of a feat in today's world), and he'll find something else. It's all about force of will.

SirNitram wrote:

Nor would I consider myself generally wide eyed or paranoid. Perhaps a bit wide eyed but that's because of the lengths people go over this sometimes.

You declare them 'scary' because obsessive personalities obsess. They also obsess over perfect scores in arcade games, pen and paper games, and a host of things. That sounds pretty bloody paranoid to me.

Instead of talking about people obsessed about "nerd" games, let's talk about people obsessed with more socially-acceptable games, like sports. If they were completely obsessed with football, nobody would care. That's acceptable. And it's even sillier, in many ways. You're not actually playing football. You're not even vicariously playing it. You're just watching it. You pay for jerseys that will be obsolete in a few years, spend megabucks to pay to watch the game for a few short hours (hours that they dictate), eating massively overpriced hot dogs, and keep up with pointless statistics.

But that's socially acceptable, unlike spending that same time not fighting the crowds to the game and watching football and pretending to be a paladin trying to get the sword of something or other.

The only person who can deal with it is him. Because it's alot deeper than the game, it's an ease of becoming obsessed.

I know, he's who I get Asperger's from. I do actually support the theory that Asperger's Syndrom is hereditary, because I have it, and my father (the person in question) has it.

Lock him out of computers his whole life(That'd be a hell of a feat in today's world), and he'll find something else. It's all about force of will.

I don't think he'd have any more will to live... it's all he's got left really. Since my mum kicked him out that is. Ah well, it benefitted me, my sister, and my mum more than we benefitted in keeping him around, which was something of a 'logical morality' clause in itself.

SirNitram wrote:Work on that literacy. The only sentence with 'killers' is in the context of the Doom Paranoia.

And I know your common tactic of creating strawmen by innuendo. Your the one that equated this disucssion to the likes of censorship junkies that call games "murder simulators" and try to make them illegal. Once again your statement provides nothing but your usual attempts at guilt by assocaition.

SirNitram wrote:You declare them 'scary' because obsessive personalities obsess. They also obsess over perfect scores in arcade games, pen and paper games, and a host of things. That sounds pretty bloody paranoid to me.

Gee Martin, is what water too?

Of course people obsess. The fact that these games produced players that can only be regarded as addicted in large numbers also says something about the nature of these games. They operate on the principle of sucking players in and constantly having them pay for the privilege of playing ever expanding tasks. It's based on a forumla of hooking one in on a constant basis, to an extent greater than most computer games. The fact that MMORPGs are designed to cater to the obsessive player, to the extent that one, Neverwinter Nights I believe, is supposed have a pizza delivery option through the game.

SirNitram wrote:The 'never ending' MMORPG is no different from a 'never ending' tabletop.

At least with tabletop gaming you're interacting at least minimally with human beings. Something which tends to set things apart from computer games to at least some degree. The same can be said for other time- and money-wasting obessions like sports. Most sports devotees at least get together with friends for the game.

Not exactly the same as some one who has no contact with any human beings while staring blankly at a console or computer for hours out any given day. When a friend of mine can have his relationships with friends and a girlfriend reduced to sitting in the same room staring at WoW, communicating solely in game, I can't help but think that might be an unhealthy obsession.

There are obsessions that are harmless enough and those that are not. I would submit that MMORPGs tend to be harmful, at least for the chunk of people that wind up obsessed/addicted.

SirNitram wrote:This 'gaming has made us lazy' claim is certainly far from undeniable, I'd love to see some proof of causation, but I'm doubting anything reliable will come up.

Look up the average times spent out of any given week on gaming by adults and children. They're far higher than they were, which means they're sitting around doing very little phsyically. Combine that with the documentable lack of exercise in the average western and yes, there is at least a casual link.

Mayabird wrote:

SirNitram wrote:

Nor would I consider myself generally wide eyed or paranoid. Perhaps a bit wide eyed but that's because of the lengths people go over this sometimes.

You declare them 'scary' because obsessive personalities obsess. They also obsess over perfect scores in arcade games, pen and paper games, and a host of things. That sounds pretty bloody paranoid to me.

Instead of talking about people obsessed about "nerd" games, let's talk about people obsessed with more socially-acceptable games, like sports. If they were completely obsessed with football, nobody would care. That's acceptable. And it's even sillier, in many ways. You're not actually playing football. You're not even vicariously playing it. You're just watching it. You pay for jerseys that will be obsolete in a few years, spend megabucks to pay to watch the game for a few short hours (hours that they dictate), eating massively overpriced hot dogs, and keep up with pointless statistics.

But that's socially acceptable, unlike spending that same time not fighting the crowds to the game and watching football and pretending to be a paladin trying to get the sword of something or other.

Two words: social interaction.

A WoW obsessive can pursue his obsession with out the need for ever interacting with a human being except as pixels on a screen. Your average sports devotee is going to be no where nearly as agrophobic, if nothing else they can be expected to get out of the house once in a while. Perhaps even watch the game with friends.

Lord Stormbringer wrote:

SirNitram wrote:Work on that literacy. The only sentence with 'killers' is in the context of the Doom Paranoia.

And I know your common tactic of creating strawmen by innuendo. Your the one that equated this disucssion to the likes of censorship junkies that call games "murder simulators" and try to make them illegal. Once again your statement provides nothing but your usual attempts at guilt by assocaition.

:walper:

Yea, sure I make strawmen. Whatever you say, dipshit.

The similarity is very, very relevent. There's only a 'scary' if you willfully ignore it's the same factors, the same refusal to take responsibility. But no. Let's pretend it's a strawman to link two, three, multiple identical rants.

SirNitram wrote:You declare them 'scary' because obsessive personalities obsess. They also obsess over perfect scores in arcade games, pen and paper games, and a host of things. That sounds pretty bloody paranoid to me.

Gee Martin, is what water too?

'Is what water too'? That's not English. Try again with that literacy I talked with you about.

Of course people obsess. The fact that these games produced players that can only be regarded as addicted in large numbers also says something about the nature of these games. They operate on the principle of sucking players in and constantly having them pay for the privilege of playing ever expanding tasks. It's based on a forumla of hooking one in on a constant basis, to an extent greater than most computer games. The fact that MMORPGs are designed to cater to the obsessive player, to the extent that one, Neverwinter Nights I believe, is supposed have a pizza delivery option through the game.

Everquest. Knowing what you're talking about is a good thing; NWN isn't even a MMORPG.

I'll ignore the fact you just revealed you know dick about the subject and are clearly getting this from sensationalist newspaper clippings.

Is it based on a formula? Yep; the formula of 'task, reward, repeat' which is from tabletop gaming. It's a formula which, interestingly enough, comes from the real world(Do this project, if you do it well you're rewarded, then you get a new one...).

This paranoia about being made to 'suck in' people is silly; while that is a side effect, it's goal is to produce a game that can always have something to do, even for vets.

SirNitram wrote:The 'never ending' MMORPG is no different from a 'never ending' tabletop.

At least with tabletop gaming you're interacting at least minimally with human beings. Something which tends to set things apart from computer games to at least some degree. The same can be said for other time- and money-wasting obessions like sports. Most sports devotees at least get together with friends for the game.

So you declare the whole problem to be 'It's over a computer!' Well, shit, better start your paranoid rants over e-mail, IMs, and text messaging eroding our social interaction.

Not exactly the same as some one who has no contact with any human beings while staring blankly at a console or computer for hours out any given day. When a friend of mine can have his relationships with friends and a girlfriend reduced to sitting in the same room staring at WoW, communicating solely in game, I can't help but think that might be an unhealthy obsession.

If it were solely in game, it would be. Of course, these things would likely happen anyways; the disorders that lead to this don't magically flitter off without MMO's.

There are obsessions that are harmless enough and those that are not. I would submit that MMORPGs tend to be harmful, at least for the chunk of people that wind up obsessed/addicted.

I would laugh in your face, understanding far more about obsessions than you do from actual experience. All obsessions are harmful, at very least to the obsessor.

SirNitram wrote:This 'gaming has made us lazy' claim is certainly far from undeniable, I'd love to see some proof of causation, but I'm doubting anything reliable will come up.

Look up the average times spent out of any given week on gaming by adults and children. They're far higher than they were, which means they're sitting around doing very little phsyically. Combine that with the documentable lack of exercise in the average western and yes, there is at least a casual link.

I see you still have trouble with literacy. You've proven a correlation; that as videogames rose, so did laziness. You haven't proven causation, that games cause this.

Christ, Stormbringer. If you're going to act like a paranoid fucking dolt, at least have full reading comprehension and type clear sentences. Better yet, shut up and go home. Your entire position rests upon a failure to understand that all obsessions are detrimental, because if they are, it doesn't matter if it's an MMO or chess or books by J.D. Robb.

The fact you can't even move forward without proving you don't know dick about the subject matter, and opened it with classic paranoia over computer games, means you should be belittled as badly as the 'murder simulator' folk.

Stormbringer wrote:There are obsessions that are harmless enough and those that are not. I would submit that MMORPGs tend to be harmful, at least for the chunk of people that wind up obsessed/addicted.

Not to sound like a 'me-too'... but both I and Nitram have "Asperger's Syndrome" which has several aspects of OCD. Now speaking from experience, and reaffirming what Nitram has said (before you dismiss it as utter bullshit, which I'm sure you probably will): There is NOTHING harmless about an Obsession. It can tear you apart from the inside, when you know you SHOULDN'T really be doing the current action, as there are more important things to do, but you CAN'T STOP DOING IT.

So, just bear that in mind. Obsessions are always bad, and should ideally be avoided. However, you never realize that you're obsessed until it's far too late. And not everyone is GOING to get obsessed, since people like my father are the exceptions to the rule.

There are any number of readily available opiates in this world that are bad if taken to excess, all addictive to some degree or another. Booxe, television, sex, etc.

I think it's fairly evident that obsessively living a life in a fictional setting is not a healthy thing. This is fairly old news to me, being as how I came out of the old WW chats nearly ten years ago, and people who'd take chatroom RPG play so seriously that one of the primary figures involved in the games had the FBI office on her speed dial because she routinely received death threats over a fucking chat game.

What to do about it? Same as you treat any other social ill of that stripe, essentially.

As for 'guild responsibilities', my Urban Dead horde has somewhere over three hundred active members, and yeah, it's work that does consume a goodly amount of time, but I regard that as being akin to coaching a Little League team or other activities of that sort- organizational work to enhance recreational activity.

This reminds me of a forum a friend of mine got me to sign up for a while back. Each post earns you "gold" you can buy clothes and accessories with that go on your little person-avatar-thing.

People sell them on ebay for real money and can make hundreds of dollars off the "gold" and items. The devil-demon-tail thing is 200 bucks. And this isn't even a game! It's just a forum!

A friend of mine in my old hometown is so obsessed with it that she checks her PMs on it before she even answers her phone. She makes hundreds of posts a day and constantly complains to me that the server should let her post more than once per minute.

The funny thing is that psychology-wise, she isn't an obsessive personality, not past the standard teenager fixative level. I asked her why she loves it so much and she just told me "the people there are better than the ones here."

So we obviously don't talk much anymore. But who am I to criticise what she does with her life? Friends drift or fight for all sorts of reasons.

I've suffered this, back when I played Ultima Online, and when I used to do online RP on Yahell Chats.

Online Games are just like any other thing which is done for pleasure, it is addictive, to the right (maybe wrong in this case?) mindset. But depending on how addictive people are, given time, they could be weened off of it with the right stimulus (it took me failing a semester of College and going on academic probation before I snapped out of my UO fixation).

The games themselves aren't scarey, really, it boils down to the person who is playing them, thier mindset, that is "scarey" in that it got so attached so quickly to the game. Same could be said of sports fanatics, who fill thier houses with football or baseball stuff, and have to watch every game on TV, record them and watch them when there is no other game on TV, or listen to sports on the radio....etc etc.

We won't go into the wrong mindsets at Yahell/RC. Need I mention Vicki?