Feedback for Cynical Cat

[SirNitram]

Are there paladins who would do it? Maybe. Would they do it for revenge? No. Motive matters.

Which is why Nalifan and Kaeryn are not Lawful Good. Not being Lawful Good does not equate being Lawful Evil, no matter how much you declare otherwise.

[Rogue 9]

Not being lawful good doesn't make you evil. Killing hundreds of innocent people does that quite handily enough. That's all I have to say.

[frigidmagi]

Huh... Nitram? Burning down a city is going to count as an evil act. While it can be argued that it shouldn't be the DnD moral compass is rather rigid on this fact.

By taking Nalifan's side in combat against someone who is tring to save lives (i.e all the slum kids, women and so on caught in the blaze) the women is indeed doing a evil act by the standards of her universe. Our opinions of whether or not it's evil simply do not matter in her cosmos. The call has been removed from mortal hands.

[SirNitram]

Not being lawful good doesn't make you evil. Killing hundreds of innocent people does that quite handily enough. That's all I have to say.

Everyone who ever started a war is evil? Motive and intent matters. Besides, it's not like Westgate is made of paper and wood and everyone would be in the perfect position to die horribly in their house.

But hey, you've made your decision and will proclaim it loudly as authority, so it's useless to say anything else.

[SirNitram]

Huh... Nitram? Burning down a city is going to count as an evil act. While it can be argued that it shouldn't be the DnD moral compass is rather rigid on this fact.

By taking Nalifan's side in combat against someone who is tring to save lives (i.e all the slum kids, women and so on caught in the blaze) the women is indeed doing a evil act by the standards of her universe. Our opinions of whether or not it's evil simply do not matter in her cosmos. The call has been removed from mortal hands.

I haven't argued it's not evil. I've argued that doing it doesn't instantly damn you to LE. The cosmic manner in which this is all weighed up doesn't change the fact that one evil act that drives perpetrators of greater evil doesn't make you instantly heading for the Nine Hells(You've forfeited a place at Bahamuts or Torm's, but that's not argued).

[LadyTevar]

Did I say she was HAPPY about it?

I believe in the last few pages of this thread, I've made it clear that she's NOT happy about it, nor is she going to let it rest. It will possibly break their relationship, if not their total friendship.

But will she let you and Astinius go nuts and try to kill him? No. Will she let Nalifan kill you two? Also a no. Will she be able to stop him from killing you when you start shit? once again... No.

She won't like it. She's been trying to play peacekeeper between all you hard-headed idjits. But now that Astinius' has gone off half-cocked, the most she's hoping for is for Nalifan to have enough mercy not to kill him outright.

She won't like it. It's a waste of everyone's time and power, when there's far more evil things to worry about. But right now, she's put it to the back of her mind, because there's a job to be done. Later will be the recriminations and tears, as well as the rebuilding.

Now, get the fuck off that high-horse you're riding, and pull the carousel pole out of your ass.

[frigidmagi]

I haven't argued it's not evil. I've argued that doing it doesn't instantly damn you to LE. The cosmic manner in which this is all weighed up doesn't change the fact that one evil act that drives perpetrators of greater evil doesn't make you instantly heading for the Nine Hells

That instantly becomes a question of GM preference or so I would believe. It's also a question that would have lawyers going at it for the next couple decades.

I can state morally, yes, I would not allow anyone to hold on to a Good Alignment after a deed like this, or aiding someone in a deed like this. Lawful Evil wouldn't be your knockdown, you would go to Chaotic Neutral for a short time until I figured out what via your behavior what your alignment should be (yes this makes it easy to get back to good, so what? there will still be spiritual and temporal reprecussions).

However, this is not my table, Rogues table it's Cats. So his word is law.

[SirNitram]

That instantly becomes a question of GM preference or so I would believe. It's also a question that would have lawyers going at it for the next couple decades.

I can state morally, yes, I would not allow anyone to hold on to a Good Alignment after a deed like this, or aiding someone in a deed like this. Lawful Evil wouldn't be your knockdown, you would go to Chaotic Neutral for a short time until I figured out what via your behavior what your alignment should be (yes this makes it easy to get back to good, so what? there will still be spiritual and temporal reprecussions).

However, this is not my table, Rogues table it's Cats. So his word is law.

Quite. I'm just drawing from the fluff, the only real arbitrator on such. And such actions will shove you from Good towards Evil, but it's not a death sentence under any DM I've seen.. Save the psycho Vampire player who was trying his damndest to make me lose Humanity 10.

[Umbras]

Did you ever consider Nalifan knew that the fire would be countered, and he is more than capable of handling it if it didnt happen. You also may be aware that there are other non-evil algnments that come into play?

As it stands they think Nalifan is evil and thier ignorance is not going to change, but if they even think to lay a hand on Nalifan, well we could just see a repeat perfomance from Trizkel and this time he will take his time

[Cynical Cat]

Did you ever consider Nalifan knew that the fire would be countered, and he is more than capable of handling it if it didnt happen.

That assumption may not be correct.

As for burning down its city, it is definitely not a good act. Of course, Kaeryn isn't involved in that particular piece of business. She's merely trying to prevent a viscious, fratrecidal battle that will end all hope of freeing Westgate from the rakshasas, the Nightmasks, and the servants of Bane.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Of course, as I have said, an Astinius under my control would merely attempt to Banish or Dismiss the firespiders, and inform Nalifan that what he was doing was NOT acceptable, his arrogance and lust for vengeance be damned. He would NOT cast the first offensive spell.

[frigidmagi]

You know... How's about everyone shut up and wait for the damn story to finish? Everything that can be said as been said and now it's just repeats.

[Cynical Cat]

Of course, as I have said, an Astinius under my control would merely attempt to Banish or Dismiss the firespiders, and inform Nalifan that what he was doing was NOT acceptable, his arrogance and lust for vengeance be damned. He would NOT cast the first offensive spell.

See the problem with that is that the fire spiders are spread out along a line that bisects the city. He isn't going to be able to banish more than a handful at a time. That's the whole point of spreading them out, so the Banites and Nightmasks can't just go to one area and take them all out and instead have to spread out into weaker groups. The totality of their strength is too much for Nalifan, but smaller groups are prey. Concentration of firepower.

EDIT: To be clear, I like discussion about the morality of various characters' actions. As long as no one treats the Player's Handbook alignment section as gospel, its all good. As long as you can back it up, of course.

[Comrade Tortoise]

well, it was an example. Still, it isnt as if killing Nalifan will destroy his summoned minions anyway. IIRC they will persist until the duration of the spell has ended. Astinius may be a Zealot, but he isnt a stupid Zealot.

[frigidmagi]

Am I the only one who thinks the best way to kill a mage is by non-magical means? I.E stabbing him when his defenses are down!

[Cynical Cat]

Am I the only one who thinks the best way to kill a mage is by non-magical means? I.E stabbing him when his defenses are down!

There are these things known as assassins . . . . .

To quote a Steven Brust novel. "No matter how good the wizard, a knife in the back seriously cramps his style."

[LadyTevar]

Tevar wonders if Astinius got a hard-on from the kiss.

Kaeryn sees Astinius returning with his tail between his legs, and thanks Mystra that Nalifan ws being merciful. She will ask if Astinius needs healing, and then get on with taking out the Banite temple.

But if Astinius thinks that she'd do anything more than contain the fires and aid the townspeople, he's got another think coming. She will NOT go after Nalifan.

[Rogue 9]

What I said earlier stands. Gaheris would have no intention of gunning for Nalifan unless something forces his hand; not only is he not that stupid, but he has his word to consider.

[LadyTevar]

What I said earlier stands. Gaheris would have no intention of gunning for Nalifan unless something forces his hand; not only is he not that stupid, but he has his word to consider.

Oh? Which words are those?

These?

Oh, a pox on the lot of you, Nalifan included. There'll be plenty of time to deal with Nalifan after this is over, with ... as much of the Vara'Dome and church of Tyr behind us as we can get. But nooooooooo...

Sounds like Gaheris is already planning on how to take out Nalifan to me.

[frigidmagi]

Sounds like Gaheris is already planning on how to take out Nalifan to me.

If I was a paladin dealing with a drow who was committing mass murder via burning down a fucking city I would be making plans just in case to.

[LadyTevar]

Well... Gaheris cant' say much to him now.. Nalifan just saved his ass.

And what is it about breaking Kaeryn's jaw?! *rubs sympathy pains* Yeah, she can cast a silenced heal spell, but still!

[frigidmagi]

One does not get far if you break a spell casters legs and leave their jaws alone.

[LadyTevar]

Good point, Fridgid.
Not that it helps them... she can cast silenced and stilled.

But the next chapter should have her asking Nalifan what in the nine Hells made him think he could kill the hornets nest by burning down the house. If she knows Geas, she ought to hit him with it and make him single-handedly kill an Adult Red Dragon and donate it's entire horde to Ilmater's temple for the rebuilding efforts.

If you think Geas won't get thru his spell defenses, have her prick his ego with the sheer cost of rebuilding homes and businesses. After all, most townspeople in that area are the poor to begin with.. how will they afford a new home? Does he want remembered as the one who burnt it down ... or the one who rebuilt it as a gem of the region?

And if the paladin and mage squawks over her methods, let them have it with both barrels. Better alive and apologising than dead and useless. How can you convert him to Right and Goodness if hes' dead?

of course... converting Nalifan might take the next hundred years or so.......

[frigidmagi]

How can you convert him to Right and Goodness if hes' dead?

I don't think they give a damn about converting him. To them having him on their side was pretty damn damaging. Not nearly as bad as having him against them of course but still pretty damn painful.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Indeed. Though, Astinius is big on poetic justice. He isnt ALL "Destroy the evil" SImetimes, he doesnt mind converting it, or at least making it pay for their its crimes. Literally pay

The Geas idea might actually work pretty well...

Of course, we both know that unless he is magically compeled, Nal probably wont apologize