Page 1 of 1

#1 Pope Francis: Catholics Have to Share Heaven

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:28 pm
by Hotfoot
From Reuters
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Atheists should be seen as good people if they do good, Pope Francis said on Wednesday in his latest urging that people of all religions - or no religion - work together.
The leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics made his comments in the homily of his morning Mass in his residence, a daily event where he speaks without prepared comments.
He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.
"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.
"Just do good and we'll find a meeting point," the pope said in a hypothetical conversation in which someone told a priest: "But I don't believe. I'm an atheist."
Francis's reaching out to atheists and people who belong to no religion is a marked contrast to the attitude of former Pope Benedict, who sometimes left non-Catholics feeling that he saw them as second-class believers.
(Reporting By Philip Pullella; Editing by Michael Roddy)
I like this guy, I really do. As I told Havoc, we've gone from Popatine to Loving GrandpaPope. There are probably some dudes in the Church shitting bricks about this, but fuck 'em. Francis might be the guy to bring the Catholic Church into the modern day. Hell, next we might see him lifting the ban on married priests.

I mean shit, he just let Atheists into Heaven, so why not?

#2 Re: Pope Francis: Catholics Have to Share Heaven

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 2:50 pm
by B4UTRUST
I'm definitely liking this guy. He's finally come out and stated what many atheists have been saying for so many years: You can do good and be good without being religious.

As for whats next? Maybe they'll start relaxing their stance on female priests? The Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests 'ordained' a woman in KY last month. The local archbishop of course denounced the whole thing and by cannon law it's not in any way valid in the church save for her church that recognizes it. I personally see nothing wrong with a woman in charge of the church, but then again I don't have hundreds if not thousands of years of a male-only priesthood hanging over me.

#3 Re: Pope Francis: Catholics Have to Share Heaven

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 4:54 pm
by Batman
Given the things male priests up to and including various Popes have done in the past I fail to see how female priests are likely to be any worse and and I dimly recall their being noises about there having been a (hushed up) female Pope already anyway.

This guy does seem to be a pleasant surprise as Popes go. Let's see how the Church hierarchy reacts to a head honcho who finally tentatively admits the Middle Ages are over.

#4 Re: Pope Francis: Catholics Have to Share Heaven

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:05 pm
by frigidmagi
The guy is a nice guy but I would advise caution. So far he hasn't committed to actual structural reforms of the Catholic Church. Some of it might frankly be beyond his power, the Cardinals are not powerless and many of them are in fact quite conservative.

#5 Re: Pope Francis: Catholics Have to Share Heaven

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 2:33 am
by Cynical Cat
This isn't new doctrine, but it's a very friendly way of stating the Catholic Church's beliefs (short version: You should be Catholic but the Lord is a nice guy and if you're a good enough person He might let you into Heaven anyway). Francis has a history of being conservative when it comes to doctrine so don't expect movement on ordination of women or homosexuality, but he's clearly got some outreach skills and is concerned about what's happening to ordinary people. Considering how conservative the group that elected him ways, he's pretty much the best that we could hope for.

#6 Re: Pope Francis: Catholics Have to Share Heaven

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 4:57 pm
by Josh
Maybe not so much
Around 1660, a French mathematician and theologian named Blaise Pascal set out to explain logically why one should believe in God. Whereas previous thinkers had tried to prove God's existence, Pascal chose a different path. His argument, now known as Pascal's wager, stated that if you believed in God, and there was no God, you lost nothing. But if you did not believe in God, and there was a God, you lost everything. So why not believe in God?

The Pope is saying that by doing good, whoever we are, we draw close to each other -- and that we must draw close to each other.

Did Pope Francis just lay out a wager of his own? At mass on the 22nd, he said:

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! 'Father, the atheists?' Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. 'But I don't believe, Father, I am an atheist!' But do good: we will meet one another there."

Some have reacted to this as a doctrine articulating the salvation of atheists. Having read all reported versions of Francis' homily, in both English and Italian, I do not find an explicit statement that an atheist who does that which is good, il bene in Italian, will be saved. However, Francis does emphasize the universality of Christ's redemptive power, and it is through that redemptive power that salvation becomes possible. He is clearly open to the idea that Christ may well redeem even those who are non-believers. More fully articulated, that would open up a new wager, in which whether or not one believed, one's actions in the world would determine one's access to paradise. Even the hint of such an idea from man whose spiritual power stems from being the heir to St. Peter, holder of the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, is striking. Still, that God might save those who neither believe nor participate in the sacraments is not a new idea. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, one finds the statement, "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." If God wants to save someone, they will be saved.

Perhaps the focus on atheism, as breathtaking has this issue has proven to be for the media and blogosphere, misses the more powerful concept at the core of Francis' homily: the culture of encounter. In the documents from the Second Vatican Council, as well as much older texts, one finds numerous explicit statements about our shared humanity, universal rights, and the necessity to find common ground. This idea of encounter lays out a pathway for us to locate and recognize those commonalities.

Last week, Cardinal Sean O'Malley refused to attend the graduation of Boston College because they were honoring the Prime Minister of Ireland, Enda Kenny, who is supporting an abortion bill in his home country. I suggested, in another essay for The Atlantic¸ that rather than turn his back on Kenny, the Cardinal might instead seek to create opportunities for dialogue. Dialogue does not mean we will always agree, but that there is the potential to focus on that which unites rather than that which divides. In his homily, Pope Francis is laying out his roadmap for just how this might happen. The question now is whether this was just one of many thoughts expressed in a daily homily, or whether encounter will emerge as a new idea around which to shape the church in our complex, pluralistic, 21st-century world.

And that's been a startling pattern over the first few months of Francis' pontificate. He keeps making statements that make sense, that seem to shift the Church in new directions, and that open the door for more change. Supporters of these new directions worry that the conservative forces of the Curia, the rigid hierarchal minds behind the worst decisions of the last decades, will undermine Francis, who is often perceived as very much alone. But he was elected in what amounts to a landslide. The Cardinals assembled from around the world and chose, quickly, to change the Vatican's direction. Francis may prove a radical, but he's not a rebel: the establishment chose to pursue encounter over cloister. The cardinals and their Pope have made a wager. It will be a long time before we know if it pays off.
Aside from the whole good deeds thing, in the Catholic view I'm probably still heading to the hot place.

Basically, what the Cat said.