The Battle for D&D 3.5

[Magnus]

Rhoenix,

Here is the entire mini-debate between Hotfoot and myself about shapechange v. spiked plate.

The only way to settle this is by play-testing, a.k.a. spell duel.

9th level

Time Stop: 2-5 rounds to buff, uninterrupted.
Shapechange: Become an adult dragon, proceed to destroy.
Wail of the Banshee: Fort Save or die. Delicious.

8th level

Dimensional Lock: Castable during time stop, you don't get to run. Followed by a grapple check in dragon form = RIP
Mind Blank: Good luck preparing for the fight when you can't scry me.
[...]
Now, please show what spells you would use to avoid total devestation from that combination,

"Classic spells, but your dragon form is not as real as the spiked plate you're grappling...Stilled Anti-Magic Field!... good bye wizard."

Yes, let's use plate armor with arcane spells, even though we don't actually intend to use...any arcane magic.

BRILLIANT!

Meanwhile, rocks fall, you die. You fucking idiot.

Rational discussion with Hotfoot ended.

Anyway, I already conceded to Cynical Cat that a pure wizard has the advantage in a spell duel.

[Hotfoot]

Ah, now I see. By ignoring entire sections of text that I've written, you can assume that I've not covered any of these points. Oh well, the point is moot. Even assuming that I grappled you and was doing damage to you in the turn, you have the following issues to deal with:

1. Casting defensively while grappled is a more difficult concentration check, and due to multiclassing, your ranks in concentration are most likely lower than 24, and the DC for a Still Anti-Magic field is 27.
2. You still need to have a material component, which, if you're grappled, is hard to ready, as it is a full round action, giving me yet another round to do whatever I want to you.
3. One round is all I need to pin you, and you stand virtually no chance of escaping that, and when you're pinned, you cannot cast a spell, and I can even take your precious spell component away from you AND prevent you from speaking.

But hey, why let a little thing like details get in the way? You won, right?

And if you cast the anti-magic field before I could grapple you, well, I obviously wouldn't go near you then, now would I?

But no, you win, because you said so.

[Hotfoot]

For the record, here's how it goes if I win initiative:

1. Time Stop
T1. Shapechange, move closer
T2. Dimensional Lock, move closer
T3-5 (Miscellaneous Buffs, move closer, readied action to grapple as the final option)

2. Readied grapple initiates as soon as the time stop finishes, interrupting whatever he was getting ready to do to initiate a grapple. Since the action is an interrupt, he does not get to draw his components as a free action if he was going to cast a spell.
3. He can attempt to spend his round going for his spell components, or try to break the grapple, or try to cast a still spell without components.
4. Attacks and Pin.

Every round thereafter? Disarm, disarm, disarm, removing spell component pouches, robes, clothes, boots, etc. Take away the tools, then deal with at my own speed.

[Cynical Cat]

Polymorph self requires only verbal components and is an excellent escape spell (do not hold onto the black pudding Jim). Grapple provokes attack of opportunity which, if successful, disrupts grapple attempt. Grapple has to hit, although mercifully shapechanged BAB applies. Mercifully I forgotten exactly how 3.5 would handle quickened spells in this situation, so I can't be sure how they apply.

That's two 9th and an 8th level spell to do the job of one save or die and you still have to win initiative. The spells you've used are also excellent defensive spells for when things go pear shaped and high level spell slots are a mage's favorite children. You've spent them like water instead of dolled them out judiciously.

You pass, but not with an A. Save or die is still the better option.

[Hotfoot]

Grapple only requires a melee touch attack, which is pretty easy for hitting targets in heavy armor, their touch attack values stink, it's almost a sure thing.

Attack of opportunity vs. dragon AC 27 is not easy, but also subverted if I cared enough to look into other creatures that get improved grappling equivalents.

Quickened spells are a swift action, readied actions take place before the triggering action.

Polymorph, sadly, has a material component, as well as Somantic, making it doubly hard to cast in a grapple. Alter Self is Verbal and Somantic, making it a better, but not perfect option. The still version of that DC 23 to cast, significantly easier, but still not a sure thing for a mixed level caster.

This option is nearly a sure thing and much more resilient to a wide selection of spells and options than save or die, which basically boils down to a game of Rochambo.

[Cynical Cat]

Hmm. They changed polymorph self between editions. 3.0 it was verbal only. The material component part isn't a problem, between feats and clever placement (emergency spell components are not just in the pouch), but the somatic is a bitch.

A more resilient option, but too many spell slots used up and still requires the winning of initiative. Nothing's changed over save of die except:

1) More spell slots used up

2) More resilient to counter attack.

3) Doesn't instant kill, which means if he has any means of calling on reinforcements or friends, you've fucked the pooch.

4) Grossly inferior in a group situation as it ties up the caster for umpteen rounds killing one dude.

Save or die is still better, but against plate dude with easy to hit AC, pretty damn good. Furthermore, you haven't invalidated my point. It's still about winning initiative. This is just a combo you like better than using a single save or die spell and it doesn't prevent the other guy from winning initiative from using save or die or the same spell combination. At high enough level its all about casting first.