Star Trek: The Quadratic War

[Lys]

Yeah Havoc, I was literally dying in the hospital and still heroically posted hours after being discharged. What's your excuse?

[General Havoc]

Sorry for the lengthy delays everyone. I'll be posting in a couple hours.

[Josh]

It's cool. Just remember, soundtracks make everything better.

[Cynical Cat]

Obeying the will of the August General

Cynical Cat rolled 1d100 and got a total of 23:
23

[Josh]

Oh joyous luck! I was afraid we were going to run out of Borg before I ran out of torpedoes!

[Lys]

Since the person Captain Leyton is talking to also apparently knows the Cretak dirty laundry, be advised that I've been assuming Senator Cretak was never executed. She simply disappeared from her prison cell, with the Praetor Neral suspecting the exiled Liviana Charvanek of being behind it. My reading that line from Memory-Beta was what inspired me to ask that Captains Cretak and Charvanek be siblings-in-law, since the two families being allied by marriage would help explain the event. Galan Cretak is thus likely to be aware that his aunt was innocent, and certainly the Charvaneks believe it.

Also on the subject of seeecrit plots, Ishtar also believes the assassination of Senator Vreenak was a Tel Shiar false flag operation. Which it probably actually was -in part - since Chairman Koval felt it was in the Romulan Empire's interests to join the Dominion War, and had a long history of working with the Federation Intelligence in matters of mutual interest. He was likely fully aware of the Sisko's plot via Sec 31 (Sisko had approval form upstairs, so of course they knew), and manipulated the investigation on his end to smooth over any inconsistencies with the theory that the Dominion did it. Ishtar is vaguely aware of Federation involvement in the plot, but erroneously thinks their role minor, and never thought it worth the effort to dig more. She's is right about the second part, given Sisko's dead and all. Even if he was still alive and she knew everything, what would she do, kill him? Nah, she'd probably just troll him with an anonymous congratulatory post card containing a picture of an exploding shuttle, and leave it at that.

[Cynical Cat]

There's never any indication at all that Sisko informed anyone at Starfleet about his plan to bring the Romulans into the war and if I were Sisko I wouldn't tell anyone. That part should absolutely be cleared with Havoc before it's assumed.

[Lys]

There's zero ambiguity about this, Sisko says the words, "Starfleet Command had given the plan their blessing and I thought that would make things easier. But I was the one who had to make it happen. I was the one who had to look Senator Vreenak in the eye and convince him that a lie... was the truth." Check the bottom of act three. SFC didn't just know Sisko had a plan, they knew the plan, as in what exactly it entailed. If Starfleet Command knows, then Section 31 almost assuredly knows. For its part, Section 31 has basically zero reason to not communicate the information to Koval, who they know wants the Romulans in the war, and is in the best position to capitalize on whatever actions Sisko takes. It's actually entirely possible that the plan would have succeeded even if Garak hadn't sabotaged the Senator's shuttle, on account of the Chairman of the Tel Shiar (probably) being in on it. Koval was likely waiting to receive Vreenak, prepared to have something unfortunate happen to the Senator if he hadn't bought Sisko's yarn. It also explains why the murder never came back to bite Sisko back in the ass, only he and Garak knew, and all the rest of the evidence pointed to Koval.

Koval kind of single-handedly shows the problem with having an organization as powerful as the Tel Shiar. He pretty much unilaterally decided that he knew what was best for the Empire, that he would attain it even if it meant cooperating with the Empire's enemies, and there was no practical way to stop him. Ishtar is kind of personally in awe of the man, to the point that she can't even bring herself to hate him. While she played a major part in dismantling his organization within the Tel Shiar, she did this after he had retired due to old age illness, having accomplished everything he set out to do. Before then he was untouchable, and this easily makes him one of the most successful Romulans ever. Apparently he was assassinated in some EU novel or another, but I prefer to think he just died peacefully in his sleep shortly after the Dominion War.

[Cynical Cat]

Vreenak was able to quickly tell the data rod was a fake with the resources he brought with him on a shuttle. Also, given the nature of Romulan politics he's going to at least the possibility of being killed at home and he has to be killed before he tells anyone the rod's a fake. That's far too hard to pull off on short notice.

Your right that Section 31 will find out, but when they find out is important. It's probably over by the time they can take action and it's very likely that they don't have the time to discretely contact Koval. By the time they know what's happening, the best move is to say nothing. Communicating with Koval is a risk. Far better to let him act in ignorance. He's going to push a pro Federation angle and cover up any data he can get away with (remember that he's got to worry about outing himself to his underlings as well as everyone else) anyway and everyone who is told about it is another chance for the secret to get out of the bag.

[Lys]

I do believe that Koval did smooth over the discrepancies in the investigation of Vreenak's death, anything that pointed away from the Dominion or didn't fit them. It is, however, true that he may have done this on his own initiative, and completely in ignorance of Starfleet's plot. It's wouldn't be logistically possible to have all intelligence operations involving the Tel Shiar and SFI reduced to personal diplomacy between Koval and Section 31. Though I'm sure they both tried to get as close as they could. So short of that, they likely developed a knack for guessing each other's intentions. Either way though, it still leaves room for Isthar to conclude it was a Tel Shiar false flag operation, it just changes the degree of incorrecness of her conclusion.

[Cynical Cat]

I do believe that Koval did smooth over the discrepancies in the investigation of Vreenak's death, anything that pointed away from the Dominion or didn't fit them. It is, however, true that he may have done this on his own initiative, and completely in ignorance of Starfleet's plot. It's wouldn't be logistically possible to have all intelligence operations involving the Tel Shiar and SFI reduced to personal diplomacy between Koval and Section 31. Though I'm sure they both tried to get as close as they could. So short of that, they likely developed a knack for guessing each other's intentions. Either way though, it still leaves room for Isthar to conclude it was a Tel Shiar false flag operation, it just changes the degree of incorrecness of her conclusion.

Rather the opposite. Every communication is a risk. You don't communicate with him unless absolutely necessary. Koval's position means that he's very well informed. You just let him run. He's much better equipped than Section 31 to know what he needs to do so you only give him orders if they are of supreme importance. Also, information this volatile shouldn't be communicated at all, if possible. Every transmission is another chance of it getting out there.

[Lys]

One thing here that I consider important. While Section 31 clearly calls him an agent of theirs, and I'm sure they considered him such, I don't think he was. He was his own man, working for his own beliefs and vision of what was best for the Romulan Star Empire, and just so happened to be wiling to work with the Empire's enemies to accomplish those goals. However the liaison between the two was established, it was to end of cooperating in mutually agreeable goals. Both sides were trying to get the better end of the deal, and Koval didn't take orders from anyone in Starfleet. I just don't buy it otherwise.

EDIT - Misremembered a detail of Koval's history, corrected accordingly.

[General Havoc]

Memory Beta is conditional canon at the most generous possible interpretation, and I am not bound to anything it specifies. And since the matter of Senator Cretak's survival or execution touches heavily on Marcao's character, I leave the matter entirely up to him, and will not interfere with his interpretation of said canon unless it grotesquely violates other elements of the game as I have established it. He is not, however, required to accept anyone's interpretation of non-canonical expanded universe material. I have little enough patience for actual canon in this game, let alone the additional stuff.

Lys, if you want to tie your character into these events, I suggest you take the matter up with Marcao, as he has first refusal over what actually went down with Cretak. If he's willing to work something out with you, that's perfectly fine, but I won't enforce a particular interpretation on him, nor allow someone to unilaterally insert themselves into his backstory.

As to your knowledge of the Federation's role in the assassination of Senator Vreenak and the Romulan involvement in the war, I am skeptical about players who show up and declare that their characters possess knowledge of matters that are reckoned to have remained secret. Yes, it is possible the Tal Shiar either knew about, or found out about the Federation's involvement in everything that transpired there, but I would reckon the likelyhood to be low. Starfleet Command did know about the plan to fool Vreenak, but nobody except Garak and Sisko knew that he was murdered. Neither Sisko nor Garak were likely to tell anyone, including Starfleet Command, Section 31, or the Tal Shiar about what had transpired, and as far as Starfleet Command knew, Vrenak's shuttle was destroyed by the Dominion. Perhaps the Romulans were fooled, or perhaps they allowed themselves to be fooled, seeing the death of Vreenak as a convenient excuse to jump into a war that some felt was in their interests. But to make the leap that Sisko arranged Vreenak's death goes far beyond the evidence available, and is not a conclusion I will allow players to spontaneously manifest, Tal Shiar or not.

I am fine with people having their own theories as to what actually happened to bring Romulus into the war, so long as those theories do not "happen" to be the correct theory derived from tenuous logic resting on facts not in evidence to the character. Literally nobody alive knows exactly what happened to Vreenak except Garak himself. And Garak is not telling anyone.

One thing here that I consider important. While Section 31 clearly calls him an agent of theirs, and I'm sure they considered him such, I don't think he was. He was his own man, working for his own beliefs and vision of what was best for the Romulan Star Empire, and just so happened to be wiling to work with the Empire's enemies to accomplish those goals. However the liaison between the two was established, it was to end of cooperating in mutually agreeable goals. Both sides were trying to get the better end of the deal, and Koval didn't take orders from anyone in Starfleet. I just don't buy it otherwise.

The exact details of Koval's relationship with Section 31 are somewhat beyond the evidence presented, but I think it's safe to assume that he was not a full-fledged bought-and-paid-for double agent for the Federation. More likely Section 31 recognized that Koval's aims and goals aligned more closely with those of the Federation than any of the alternatives, and they took steps to attempt to ensure his ascension to the post. The extent of Section 31's direct involvement with Koval is somewhat conjectural. I cannot credit that he had no idea of Section 31's efforts, nor that Section 31 expected him to have no idea. Likely he welcomed their assistance as he would any underhanded support in the snakepit of Romulan politics. Koval's politics clearly were pro-Federation to begin with. And I doubt seriously that a Romulan intelligence officer would find it shocking, appalling, or otherwise unthinkable, that the Federation should seek to influence the Romulan Empire's policies in their favor by underhanded means. It's exactly what the Romulans do whenever possible, after all.

[Lys]

Memory Beta is conditional canon at the most generous possible interpretation, and I am not bound to anything it specifies. And since the matter of Senator Cretak's survival or execution touches heavily on Marcao's character, I leave the matter entirely up to him, and will not interfere with his interpretation of said canon unless it grotesquely violates other elements of the game as I have established it. He is not, however, required to accept anyone's interpretation of non-canonical expanded universe material. I have little enough patience for actual canon in this game, let alone the additional stuff.

Lys, if you want to tie your character into these events, I suggest you take the matter up with Marcao, as he has first refusal over what actually went down with Cretak. If he's willing to work something out with you, that's perfectly fine, but I won't enforce a particular interpretation on him, nor allow someone to unilaterally insert themselves into his backstory.

In all honestly I randomly take stuff from Memory Beta, and Alpha for that matter, pretty much entirely on the basis of whether I like them or not. I should note I do have a bad habit about speaking authoritatively about things that I'm fully willing to place qualifiers on, even large numbers of qualifiers. Trust me my family's been spending a decade trying to get me to stop, it's a thing. >_>

Anyway, the qualifiers, in case it's not clear: Anything I say that touches on anyone else's character is subject to immediate withdrawal, revision, or correction as soon as the player in question objects to it. You tell me that's not how it was, how you interpreted, how you liked it, and I'll probably just say "cool, never mind me, then" and leave it at that. I might try to sell ideas I really like, but I will also stop if I the other person's not buying it. Messing with other people's characters when they don't like it is bad, bad stuff and I never want to start. Making it known I'm messing with another another's backstory or concept and they don't like it is a quick way to get me to drop a line of argument, works for the GM too. I'm here to make people happy not upset! ^_^

As to your knowledge of the Federation's role in the assassination of Senator Vreenak and the Romulan involvement in the war, I am skeptical about players who show up and declare that their characters possess knowledge of matters that are reckoned to have remained secret.

What Ishtar "knows" is that the Romulans were brought into the Dominion War by the actions of Tel Shiar Chairman Koval enacting a false flag operation on his own. Her knowledge of the Federation's role is non-existent, she speculates that if they played a role it was minor, which is wrong. She is fairly certain that Koval did indeed work with Section 31, and that they exist, but she knows next to nothing about Sec 31 itself, or the extent of Koval's cooperation with them. ("They are a rogue group within Starfleet, accountable to no-one," is pretty much it.) She would describe them as very frustrating and elusive ghosts, that's she's only mostly certain are actually real, and then only after years of looking for them.

I'm trying to make her well informed as suits her station, and have her make very smart conclusions because she's a smart girl, while simultaneously still trying to keep in mind the character's biases and lack of certain privileged information. This is why I make sure she misses a lot of key details. It's admittedly very hard to balance well, but I think the outlined stuff works out, more or less. However, I mention these things in the OOC thread, instead of just eventually posting them as fact in the game thread, precisely in case I happen to think wrong. Works out better, yes? Erm, well, except when it derails into a multi-page tangent... those are bad. <_<

The exact details of Koval's relationship with Section 31 are somewhat beyond the evidence presented, but I think it's safe to assume that he was not a full-fledged bought-and-paid-for double agent for the Federation. More likely Section 31 recognized that Koval's aims and goals aligned more closely with those of the Federation than any of the alternatives, and they took steps to attempt to ensure his ascension to the post. The extent of Section 31's direct involvement with Koval is somewhat conjectural. I cannot credit that he had no idea of Section 31's efforts, nor that Section 31 expected him to have no idea. Likely he welcomed their assistance as he would any underhanded support in the snakepit of Romulan politics. Koval's politics clearly were pro-Federation to begin with. And I doubt seriously that a Romulan intelligence officer would find it shocking, appalling, or otherwise unthinkable, that the Federation should seek to influence the Romulan Empire's policies in their favor by underhanded means. It's exactly what the Romulans do whenever possible, after all.

Yeah, more or less that's my take on it as well. Heck, my own character comes from a strongly pro-Imperial background, though not necessarily anti-Federation they're not exactly pro it either, and she is impressed by what she knows of Koval's accomplishments. None of what he did was necessarily out and out treason in Ishtar's book, she's no saint herself, he just did it in service of goals that she did not necessarily agree with herself.

EDIT - Oh whoa, it's Admiral Leyton himself, what a tweeeest! ^_^ (No seriously, I like it!)

[White Haven]

I have to go to work in a short time, so I can't give this the force it deserves. But rest assured that Havoc, sir, you are a whore of the highest magnitude, and I shall have to ruminate on the proper level of retribution for quite some time.

Well played. Now I have to decide just how tempted Leyton will be to just up and stun...Leyton.

[Lys]

I kind of wanted Khanjar's name to be known, renowned even. Doesn't look like CyniCat wants to play ball on that point. That's okay, I'll take it as a sign my stories aren't strong enough to pick up other people, and try harder next time. You win some, you lose some, them's the breaks.

Anyway, a note because I keep forgetting: Ishtar Charvanek's full rank is Enriov, which means Senior Commander to the Riov's Commander. The pay-grade is O-6B, which means it's an O-6 that outranks other O-6s but still gets paid like an O-6 and has none of the rank or privilege of a flag officer. I think the Starfleet equivalent would be Fleet Captain, but don't quote me on that. I thought it fit since she's commanded a starship since before the Dominion War, but isn't yet old enough to justify as a flag officer.

rhoenix, on the subject of cloaks, we do recall that it's extremely dangerous - GM has used the word "suicidal" - for most ships to cloak in the Badlands right? I mean, unless you like live plasma scouring your naked hull plating.

Well played. Now I have to decide just how tempted Leyton will be to just up and stun...Leyton.

Doooo iiiiiitt! You know waaant toooo!

[Cynical Cat]

I kind of wanted Khanjar's name to be known, renowned even. Doesn't look like CyniCat wants to play ball on that point. That's okay, I'll take it as a sign my stories aren't strong enough to pick up other people, and try harder next time. You win some, you lose some, them's the breaks.

Khanjar's name is known. Arikel didn't waste her captain's time telling her captain information she knows he already knows. She's on the ball like that. That's why her summary is confined to who the last known CO was.

[Lys]

That... actually makes sense! ^_^

[rhoenix]

rhoenix, on the subject of cloaks, we do recall that it's extremely dangerous - GM has used the word "suicidal" - for most ships to cloak in the Badlands right? I mean, unless you like live plasma scouring your naked hull plating.

Far better than the alternative, at any rate - though it did end up being useless.

[Lys]

That reference picture of Mirai was originally my reference picture for General Denkara, but Denkara is dead so frankly it doesn't matter what she looked like. It vaguely bothers me to have two red-heads as my senior officers, seems like saturation, but stranger things have happened, and the pic's too good to not use, so I'll make up by having nobody else by a read-head. Aesthetics! ^_^

Far better than the alternative, at any rate - though it did end up being useless.

Mostly I meant it was terrible advice to give to Kadon, since risk of cloaking is unlikely to be worth it unless the "surprise" is something he can't kill in an ambush, in which case why are you bringing it toward him?

[White Haven]

Two redheads. Heh. About my Andorians...

[Lys]

Two redheads. Heh. About my Andorians...

A 75% Andorian crew inexplicably commanded by a human at that! When this is all over, I bet it's going to turn out Leyton's actually been drafted into the Imperial Fleet, and will be taking his pension from them.

[rhoenix]

Mostly I meant it was terrible advice to give to Kadon, since risk of cloaking is unlikely to be worth it unless the "surprise" is something he can't kill in an ambush, in which case why are you bringing it toward him?

In this case, it's simple - I want to lead it on a merry chase for a bit, and give it a very sudden stop at the end of the chase to make sure it dies.

With my ship's state the way it is right now, I can't do so myself reliably.

[Cynical Cat]

Lys, it's possible that your people know a fair amount about Kadon because he was originally from an important Klingon house, but the connection with Imperial Intelligence is one that would only be known to someone who knows his personally background in great detail and intimacy since the connection is a childhood friend whose record is a mass of lies and says nothing of the sort. His feud with his older brother and line founding is far more public and notable. Please switch those details.

[Lys]

Alright done! I added the detail about the feud with his brother, and changed the intelligence connections to "dangerous man with friends in high places" which is should be vague enough to be known.