The Battle for D&D 3.5

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:47 pm

Actually, no. If I'm a dragon, according to shapechange, I have a dragon's strength and everything. Now you need to choose, amd I a dragon or am I not, because it does matter, especially for things like hitting you with a tail swipe from outside your sphere's piddling 10ft. PBAOE. Or, you know, drop rocks on you, which if I'm a green dragon, I can basically do all day since I can make the rocks.

And no, Cleric spells don't really get nasty per se. They're nice for defenses and buffing, but not really for, you know, damage.

Also, consider that it's still technically only 10 levels of Cleric and Wizard for purposes of saving throws, BAB, hitpoints, and so on. 15th level is for caster effects only.

As far as force cage, we already hashed out why that wouldn't work.

At the end of the day, you can cast only a handful of 8th level spells, while I can get a full complement, plus bonuses for specialization, plus any prestige classes I might have picked up. I can potentiallly take a 10 level bad-ass prestige class all the way to completion while you...well at best, you're looking at a few here or there, and if we're going by base rules, we know what prestigue class you'd have to take to get cleric/wizard working properly, but hey.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 7:55 pm

Well, you dont get to respecify what classes. I could have done the exact same thing. Dont rewrite the rules.

Also: The part of your body that is shapechanged winks back to normal when it passes through the radius of the field. Which means if you tail slap me... it will not affect me. Your tail will reappear on the other side.

The rocks are more difficult. On the other hand those can be delt with by having a decent reflex save. Oh, and magic arrows I fire at you become magical when they leave the field. So anything on them also hurts you.

Honestly the matter comes down to who wins init and who is more clever. If You never get to go all draconic because I hit you with Enervation and dropped you down 4 effective levels and thus took out your 9th level spells...

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:21 pm

That would depend on who won initiative wouldn't it?

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 9:40 pm

Yes. That is the point. Depending on how quickly the person who wins init wants to end it... It can be done. A 20th level wizard will have a hard time surviving a CL 15 disintegrate...

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 10:47 pm

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Well, you dont get to respecify what classes. I could have done the exact same thing. Dont rewrite the rules.

I'm not rewriting anything. Pay attention. I'm saying that in the situation of prestige classes, a single-class character will almost always win out over a multiclassed character, barring the exceptions of the hybrid prestige classes, which, under either new system, would need some sort of retooling, almost certainly.

Also: The part of your body that is shapechanged winks back to normal when it passes through the radius of the field. Which means if you tail slap me... it will not affect me. Your tail will reappear on the other side.

I'd have to see a ruling on that, since the wording is so nebulous, but let's just assume that's right for now.

The rocks are more difficult. On the other hand those can be delt with by having a decent reflex save. Oh, and magic arrows I fire at you become magical when they leave the field. So anything on them also hurts you.

Reflex saves aren't likely here, since it'd be a ranged attack of some sort. Meanwhile, I can drop a rock on you from a much higher distance than you can shoot at me. You know, flight and all that. Never mind that I'm free to cast my own defenses on myself, you know, like stoneskin and such.

Honestly the matter comes down to who wins init and who is more clever. If You never get to go all draconic because I hit you with Enervation and dropped you down 4 effective levels and thus took out your 9th level spells...

Yes, assuming you start within 75 feet of me. Many of the spells you're talking about are pretty close range affairs, and I doubt you're going to be at knife fight range so easily. How do you get to that range?

Magnus · Post by **Magnus** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 9:46 am

Hotfoot wrote:Now, just in case that seemed overly dismissive, allow me to paint a picture without using world-ending spells like "Wish".

9th level

Time Stop: 2-5 rounds to buff, uninterrupted.
Shapechange: Become an adult dragon, proceed to destroy.
Wail of the Banshee: Fort Save or die. Delicious.

8th level

Dimensional Lock: Castable during time stop, you don't get to run. Followed by a grapple check in dragon form = RIP
Mind Blank: Good luck preparing for the fight when you can't scry me.

I mean, really, all you need is Shapechange to really fuck with most spellcasters. Even without resorting to an adult dragon form, I'm sure I could find one that absolutely fucks with most spellcasters by itself within the 20 hit dice limit.

Now, please show what spells you would use to avoid total devestation from that combination, keeping in mind that the only benefit you have is 7th level cleric magic on top of the assumed 7th level arcane magic. Or maybe you could show how 10 levels in fighter give you an edge on a dragon. I look forward to seeing the convolution.

"Classic spells, but your dragon form is not as real as the spiked plate you're grappling...Stilled Anti-Magic Field!... good bye wizard."

Magnus · Post by **Magnus** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 2:13 pm

Fight #1 goes to the cleric/wizard.

As a courtesy, I'll cast heal when you're in negative hp and give you a second chance, but this time with agreed duelling rules and a DM to moderate. We can start a new thread.

Proposed Duelling Rules (to test my multi-class spell caster house rules):
1. No prestige classes, Wizard and Cleric levels only.
2. WotC 3.5 edition source books only.
3. 30 point buy.
4. Any basic race.
5. 760,000gp starting gear.
6. We'll find a moderator and submit characters and prepared spells list.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 3:03 pm

Magnus, I'm afraid your competition won't work. All you're going to get is build/gear/spell optimization for beating another dude in a duel.

Magnus · Post by **Magnus** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 4:15 pm

Cynical Cat wrote:Magnus, I'm afraid your competition won't work. All you're going to get is build/gear/spell optimization for beating another dude in a duel.

You're right. It's also biased to the wizards offensive talent, and D&D is about filling roles...

The official rules give the cleric/wizard:
- Less offense magic than a cleric.
- Less support magic than a wizard.

The minimum requirement for a decent fix to multiclassing would give a cleric /wizard:
- More offense magic than a cleric, but less than a wizard.
- More support magic than a wizard, but less than a cleric.

I think my system is within the range of decent fixes. If anyone playtests the system, let me know how it goes.

-Magnus

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:17 pm

Magnus wrote:"Classic spells, but your dragon form is not as real as the spiked plate you're grappling...Stilled Anti-Magic Field!... good bye wizard."

And you've only shown what an auto-ing moron you are. Yes, let's use plate armor with arcane spells, even though we don't actually intend to use...any arcane magic.

BRILLIANT!

Meanwhile, rocks fall, you die. You fucking idiot.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Thu Sep 17, 2009 5:39 pm

Actually Hotfoot, he does have a point. Stilled spells plus plate armour is a fighter/mage multiclass build that I have seen. You are, however, doing it wrong.

You don't shapeshift into a dragon for a first strike against another caster, you take him out of the battle with a first strike like polar ray or flesh to stone or maximized ball lightning or whatever. You shapeshift if he decides to hide behind an antimagic shell. That's where the supremacy of 9th level plus spells (your argument) comes into play. They give the caster an immensely powerful and versatile tool kit to deal with all sorts of otherwise fatal situations. That's why you hit first with overwhelming force.

Magnus · Post by **Magnus** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:32 am

Hotfoot wrote:And you've only shown what an auto-ing moron you are. Yes, let's use plate armor with arcane spells, even though we don't actually intend to use...any arcane magic.

BRILLIANT!

Meanwhile, rocks fall, you die. You fucking idiot.

You are a seriously sore loser.

Get a grip!

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:55 am

Cynical Cat wrote:Actually Hotfoot, he does have a point. Stilled spells plus plate armour is a fighter/mage multiclass build that I have seen. You are, however, doing it wrong.

Stilled spells or not, the anti-magic field means he's totally cut off his own access to arcane magic, and moreso, wasted a metamagic feat for a spell he can cast from the divine sphere.

You don't shapeshift into a dragon for a first strike against another caster, you take him out of the battle with a first strike like polar ray or flesh to stone or maximized ball lightning or whatever. You shapeshift if he decides to hide behind an antimagic shell. That's where the supremacy of 9th level plus spells (your argument) comes into play. They give the caster an immensely powerful and versatile tool kit to deal with all sorts of otherwise fatal situations. That's why you hit first with overwhelming force.

Actually, the argument is that with time stop, I get a chance to throw on buffs and lay down traps that he'll have to waste time trying to get rid of. The save or die spells become a lot harder to use when you're shapechanged into something with better saving throws, but yes, obviously save or die is a way to go, but with cleric levels, less useful.

Magnus wrote: You are a seriously sore loser.

Get a grip!

I was going to leave this alone, but then you had to step back in. You are a fool if you think for a moment that your argument has gained you any sort of victory. You've swept in, made a few poor points with barely any support, and then declared yourself victorious because....why?

Please, do tell me, how does plate armor protect you absolutely from anything I'm throwing at you? You know, like trapping you under a veritable mountain of earth?

There are so many ways I can force you to drop the anti-magic field or die it's not even funny, but no, plate armor lets you win. Seriously, did you really think about this?

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:27 am

Hotfoot wrote:
Cynical Cat wrote:Actually Hotfoot, he does have a point. Stilled spells plus plate armour is a fighter/mage multiclass build that I have seen. You are, however, doing it wrong.
Stilled spells or not, the anti-magic field means he's totally cut off his own access to arcane magic, and moreso, wasted a metamagic feat for a spell he can cast from the divine sphere.

You're wrong. A hybrid caster has the advantage over a straight arcane caster if he takes magic out of the mix. The theoretical hybrid caster may not be a cleric mix. Save or die, is again, the better move for both parties if they win initiative.

Actually, the argument is that with time stop, I get a chance to throw on buffs and lay down traps that he'll have to waste time trying to get rid of. The save or die spells become a lot harder to use when you're shapechanged into something with better saving throws, but yes, obviously save or die is a way to go, but with cleric levels, less useful.

You're missing the point. You don't waste a time stop and all those buffs. You've won initiative. You one shot him and save the time stop and all those protective spells for another foe. You don't time stop, buff, and then kill him.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:28 am

If your opponent saves, he gets (at that level) to Save or Die you, as he has access to those spells at that level.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:30 am

Comrade Tortoise wrote:If your opponent saves, he gets (at that level) to Save or Die you, as he has access to those spells at that level.

The odds of a caster surviving without a lot of buffing are slim. And, again, it is predicated on winning initiative which is going to deliver the win most of the time without time stop anyway. That just slightly pushes the odds even more in the winner's direction. It doesn't address my argument that a caster on caster duel is one of the few areas where 9th level spell access isn't crucial because initiative is what matters.

Comrade Tortoise · Post by **Comrade Tortoise** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:44 am

Cynical Cat wrote:
Comrade Tortoise wrote:If your opponent saves, he gets (at that level) to Save or Die you, as he has access to those spells at that level.
The odds of a caster surviving without a lot of buffing are slim. And, again, it is predicated on winning initiative which is going to deliver the win most of the time without time stop anyway. That just slightly pushes the odds even more in the winner's direction. It doesn't address my argument that a caster on caster duel is one of the few areas where 9th level spell access isn't crucial because initiative is what matters.

That is what I am saying... That the guy with a lower caster level (because he has levels in something else) might have a better chance of surviving a save or die (which uses fort saves) than the specialized caster. He can then (maybe) respond in kind with his own Save or Die spell, which the 20th level caster has little defense against.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 11:49 am

Comrade Tortoise wrote:
That is what I am saying... That the guy with a lower caster level (because he has levels in something else) might have a better chance of surviving a save or die (which uses fort saves) than the specialized caster. He can then (maybe) respond in kind with his own Save or Die spell, which the 20th level caster has little defense against.

True, but you can always hit him with say a sudden maximized polar ray and that'll do the job. It's still all about winning initiative or having time to buff before the fight at that level.

Magnus · Post by **Magnus** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:46 pm

Hotfoot,

I stand by my comment. Get a grip! Unless you apologise and retract your abusive language, I'll take no further part in this discussion.

rhoenix · Post by **rhoenix** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:39 pm

Magnus wrote:Hotfoot,

I stand by my comment. Get a grip! Unless you apologize and retract your abusive language, I'll take no further part in this discussion.

Ah, I love the smell of dodge in the morning.

I'll be clear for you: either back up your points or let it go. Hotfoot pointed out the weakness in your argument, which you simply got defensive about instead of actually arguing for your point in this mini-debate that developed. Either let it go and concede the point that plate armor != win, or bring some better arguments for your point. It's that simple.

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:33 pm

Cynical Cat wrote:You're wrong. A hybrid caster has the advantage over a straight arcane caster if he takes magic out of the mix. The theoretical hybrid caster may not be a cleric mix. Save or die, is again, the better move for both parties if they win initiative.

Since all magic is useless, removing all magic from the equation is laughable. We're talking mostly about caster hybridizing with other casters, but hey, throw in a fighter type to the mix, or a rogue type, it doesn't make much difference. The most lethal of these combination is ranger and/or fighter specializing in mighty composite longbows. Still, a wizard with appropriate spells can surpass a gimped fighter's BAB.

You're missing the point. You don't waste a time stop and all those buffs. You've won initiative. You one shot him and save the time stop and all those protective spells for another foe. You don't time stop, buff, and then kill him.

Fair enough, but what to kill him with? The two big killers are Will and Fort saves, and most of the combinations listed above have good values in those. They won't be properly 20th level, but they'll be within striking distance.

Let's put it this way: Wail of the Banshee, 9th level, Fort Negates. Let's assume that at 20th level, you have a character that started with 18 intelligence, put all his bonuses into Int as he levelled up, and has an item that gives him +5 to Int, that's 28, for a bonus of +9. The saving throw becomes 10+9+9 = 28.

A fighter 10/wizard 10 has a fort save of +12 base, plus whatever constitution bonus and gear they might have. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume this character has a +2 to constitution, bringing us to 14, and no gear. This still leaves us with any roll 14 or over resulting in a successful saving throw. Slightly more than 25%, and that's assuming no gear, no death ward, etc. The odds are good, but not quite enough where I feel comfortable. Sorry, maybe it's just the guardsman in me, but I don't trust to single rolls. I like to hedge my bets.

Now, a pure caster can direct his stats to be dexterity and intelligence oriented, while any combo class has to spread them out more, along with his feats. I can more easily obtain an advantage in initiative.

Magnus wrote:Hotfoot,

I stand by my comment. Get a grip! Unless you apologise and retract your abusive language, I'll take no further part in this discussion.

I will never apologize for calling a nail a nail, and I think I hit you on the head. If you would like to actually discuss things, as Cyncat and I are doing now, I invite you to do so. Note that I disagree with him, and yet I'm not calling him a moron. Pithy one-liners declaring victory irritate me and I will not apologize calling you a moron for it because it was frankly a moronic thing to do.

It's one thing to say, "Well how are you going to deal with an anti-magic field and a dude in full plate?" Hell, you could even be a little crass about it, throw in a "smart guy" or "dumbass". That plays a hell of a lot better in my book than one line that amounts to "lol you lose". There are numerous factors you're not taking into account, such as assuming I get my time stop off and shapechange into a dragon, I can fly, and easily stay out of range of your ten foot radius sphere by, you know, flying above you. Not to mention the myriad of other things that I could change into to make your life hell through various magics that cause effects not altered by the anti-magic sphere, like getting past the armor advantage by...using a ranged weapon and quickened true strike.

When you show you're ready to actually discuss things instead of acting like either an asshole or a moron, I'll treat you with respect, because then you will have earned it.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:56 pm

Hotfoot wrote:Since all magic is useless, removing all magic from the equation is laughable. We're talking mostly about caster hybridizing with other casters, but hey, throw in a fighter type to the mix, or a rogue type, it doesn't make much difference. The most lethal of these combination is ranger and/or fighter specializing in mighty composite longbows. Still, a wizard with appropriate spells can surpass a gimped fighter's BAB.

You should tell me how you're going to surpass a hybrid build BAB without magic while being grappled. You're being dense Hotfoot. The weakness of this build isn't that it can't kick ass, its the narrow range where it can kick ass. You simply don't let it get close by evading with fly or teleport or whatever. Nonmagical plate isn't fast. That's why:

1) I didn't suggest it

2) Save or die is better.

I just said you couldn't dismiss it because it can potentially fuck up an arcane caster. It's circumstance dependent though and caster with 9th level spells has the best ability to rearrange the circumstances. Again, that's another one of my points, that 9th level spells are most decisive when you aren't in a save or die situation.

Sorry, maybe it's just the guardsman in me, but I don't trust to single rolls. I like to hedge my bets.

Now, a pure caster can direct his stats to be dexterity and intelligence oriented, while any combo class has to spread them out more, along with his feats. I can more easily obtain an advantage in initiative.

Here's your problem: You're already trusting to single roll and that's for initiative. There's no way around that. This is a glass cannon duel. I'm not going to deny a single class caster has a slight advantage in this set up because frankly he does. But the advantage is slight. A bad initiative roll followed by anything other than a crappy to hit or an excellent save and you're toast. There's a few ways of shaving the odds but none of it changes the fact that in this one area, lower level casters are a serious threat to casters with 9th level spells.

If they go with shit like anti-magic fields and spiked plate grapple builds or its a mixed party of enemies or an enemy critter with awesome saves or whatever then 9th level spells are a huge advantage.

frigidmagi · Post by **frigidmagi** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:07 pm

Cat are you basically saying it all comes down to luck?

Hotfoot · Post by **Hotfoot** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:12 pm

Cynical Cat wrote:You should tell me how you're going to surpass a hybrid build BAB without magic while being grappled. You're being dense Hotfoot. The weakness of this build isn't that it can't kick ass, its the narrow range where it can kick ass. You simply don't let it get close by evading with fly or teleport or whatever. Nonmagical plate isn't fast. That's why:

1) I didn't suggest it

I take issue with the being grappled part because it's nonsensical. Even if the hybrid class wins initiative and is right next to me, casting anti-magic field defensively, they just used their standard action to cast a spell. Their move is 20, mine is 30. Even without the move advantage, I can spend a move action to get out of the sphere, cast teleport, and continue from there. The anti-magic field doesn't stop me from leaving, and even if the fighter could keep up, with teleport, I'm long gone to wherever I need to go.

And, let's be honest, the idea that the fight starts at literal knife-fight range is so ridiculous as to not even be an issue. There's no way either combatant is really going to sneak up on the other like that, so at best we're looking at ranges upwards of 60 feet or more, most likely outside 100 feet.

2) Save or die is better.

In many situations, yes. If neither of them knows they'll be heading into a save or die duel, sure, but there are protections against death spells out there. As I said in IM, I'll take direct damage forcing a massive damage save or die, because in that case, even if he saves, I'm ahead in hit points.

I just said you couldn't dismiss it because it can potentially fuck up an arcane caster. It's circumstance dependent though and caster with 9th level spells has the best ability to rearrange the circumstances. Again, that's another one of my points, that 9th level spells are most decisive when you aren't in a save or die situation.

Thing is, I'm looking for what will reliably work, not be a one in a million shot of maybe, if the circumstances are right, and the stars are favorable, and it relies on me being an idiot.

You do have a point though that a lot of the save or die stuff comes before 9th level, so I have to conceed a bit there and admit I was wrong. I still have a major gripe about high level magic in general though, and maintain that without 9th level magic, it's very hard to compete.

Here's your problem: You're already trusting to single roll and that's for initiative. There's no way around that. This is a glass cannon duel. I'm not going to deny a single class caster has a slight advantage in this set up because frankly he does. But the advantage is slight. A bad initiative roll followed by anything other than a crappy to hit or an excellent save and you're toast. There's a few ways of shaving the odds but none of it changes the fact that in this one area, lower level casters are a serious threat to casters with 9th level spells.

If they go with shit like anti-magic fields and spiked plate grapple builds or its a mixed party of enemies or an enemy critter with awesome saves or whatever then 9th level spells are a huge advantage.

You're right that there's no way around the initiative check, that's a sad fact of life I have to resign myself to, though with magic I can hedge the bets in my favor, even if slightly, and specialization means that I can hedge them even further, but just because I have to rely on one doesn't mean I have to rely on another.

I will admit that a 15th level caster is more of a threat than I gave them absolute credit for, but I still don't think it's the best way to do multiclassing. I don't even think Trailblazer's way is best (though it's certainly better than the standard method).

Of course, if I had it my way, I'd make D&D a skill-based system and to hell with all this level crap.

Cynical Cat · Post by **Cynical Cat** » Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:21 pm

frigidmagi wrote:Cat are you basically saying it all comes down to luck?

No, but it comes down to a few die rolls.

Here's the drill: highly effective one shot take down spells come into play at 6th level with disintegrate and flesh to stone. You have some less potent but still dangerous lower level versions like baleful polymorph and phantasmal killer as well. At that level the best tactic is to take out your foe immediately with a single spell. Now if there's two casters and one or more of them have had significant prep time then where they have access to 7th or 9th level spells really matters, but if they don't then its going to come down to a very few die rolls.

This applies to one on one fights only. Group tactics considerably change dynamic. As I've said before, this is the only area where I disagree with Hotfoot about 9th level spells being an overwhelming advantage. All other situations, he's pretty much right and I've said so.

Those odds can be shaved. An elf mage with dex enhancing items and feats is going to do real well on the initiative roll. Mixed class with enhance saving throws, but using higher level saves or dies will pretty much make up for that. Then you have a to hit or saving throw roll, possibly with a beat SR roll, depending on which spell the winner hits the loser with and the assorted racial/goodie mods. Good luck here can allow the loser of initiative to survive to strike back.

It doesn't all come down to luck, but luck matters a lot. D&D's been like that for a long time. A good crit or bad save or a good bit of rolling on an arrow volley matters. When fighters go at it they might roll a dozen d20s over several rounds to kill each other. The luck matters there two, but the mages are rolling three d20s over one round.

LibriumArcana.Games

The Battle for D&D 3.5

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