STGOD rules thread

[rhoenix]

As per the army, it is assumed the ground crews and what not come with the planes.

Alright, I've no complaints then.

[Steve]

Hrm, that's a higher cost for aircraft than I'm doing over at SDNW3

No offense, but... So what? This isn't SDNW3 and it isn't going to be. I made this assuming we using the point system that Zeke created.

Woh, woh, peace man, I was just making a remark, meant nothing by it.

Good mod, nice moddy.... *is clubbed*

[Hadrianvs]

I'm including zepplins for several reasons, one they were sucessfully used in WWI, and given what I've looked up of early 1930s bombers would still carry heavier bomb loads. There's been no Hindenburg crash to kill the idea of using rigid lighter then air ships.

They were used successfully as scouts, not bombers. The German attempt to bomb England during the First World War was proportionally the most expensive bombing campaign in history. It was also one of the least cost effective, since the absurd cost of each bomb load did not pay off in anything but negligeble damage.

Airships are also extremely vulnerable, the only worthwhile armour the Germans were able to find was height. An airship flying in range of enemy guns is a dead airship, full stop. There's just no way you can armour something that big against against the kind of firepower available. We're talking about a target the size of a stadium moving at a leisurely pace through the sky, it's any AAA crew's wet dream.

[Steve]

It's arguably not very sporting to shoot them.

[frigidmagi]

they were used successfully as scouts, not bombers. The German attempt to bomb England during the First World War was proportionally the most expensive bombing campaign in history. It was also one of the least cost effective, since the absurd cost of each bomb load did not pay off in anything but negligeble damage.

I've read of at least one successful bomb raid using a pair of 200pd bombs. Either way, the 2 engine bombers are much, much faster if at the moment carrying a much smaller bomb load. Course no one is forcing you to buy Zeppelins, Hadri so feel free to have Russia stick to planes.

[Hadrianvs]

I've read of at least one successful bomb raid using a pair of 200pd bombs.Either way, the 2 engine bombers are much, much faster if at the moment carrying a much smaller bomb load. Course no one is forcing you to buy Zeppelins, Hadri so feel free to have Russia stick to planes.

That's not the problem. The problem is that by offering them up for sale you're implying that a fleet of airships will do anything other than go down in flames once it enters combat, which is simply not the case. The things are worse than useless, and absurdly expensive. Not to mention that they can't handle any weather more threatening than a gentle breeze, and they're too slow to avoid storms and the like. You might as well make coal-fired tanks a possible buy.

Airships were a good idea, as scouts, back when aircraft were limited to altitudes below 15,000 feet. By this era there's no height an airship can reach that a fighter can't match. Their huge size and slow speed means a single fighter can easily down any airship with just a strafing run. The US Navy actually did try using airships during this time period. They had two airship aircraft carriers, neither proved to be of much use, and both were lost to adverse weather. They were also used as convoy escorts during the Second World War in an ASW role, but they didn't sink anything, and their size made it possible to spot allied convoys that would have otherwise been hidden over the horizon.

[Slacker]

...but I want Crimson Skies-esque airship duels over the mad carnage of Kiev! *lipquiver*

[frigidmagi]

Alright this is how we'll do it. Vote.

Aye or Nay for the current airforce point buy? A nay vote means a removal of zeppelins.

The vote will go until 1:30am Wednesday. We start now.

Standard rules for vote apply no outside posts until the vote ends.

[The Cleric]

Don't buy them if you don't want them. Easy as that.

[Steve]

Aye

Recasting: Nay, specifically to "super-zeppelins".

To clarify, my vote is a Nay to permitting zeppelins that are ahistorically superior, the rest of the system is okay by me.

[Hadrianvs]

Don't buy them if you don't want them. Easy as that.

It's not, because I don't want them in the game any more than I want jetpack infantry.


EDIT - Sorry, Magi, didn't see we'd switched to "vote mode".

Mine is obvious.

[Cynical Cat]

As cool as they would be, we're not playing a steampunk game.

Nay.

[General Havoc]

Abstain. I'm not wedded to their existence or nonexistence.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Aye. They did exist historically, so long as it is made clear that their effectiveness is not proportional to cost.

[KlavoHunter]

I want Zeppelins to be in the game, though I agree that they are of fairly limited military use.

Edit: So AYE

edit2:

...but I want Crimson Skies-esque airship duels over the mad carnage of Kiev! *lipquiver*

You mean the Steampunk SD on Spacebattles?

[rhoenix]

Zeppelins turn into horrendous fireballs if shot down, right?

Damn, that's delicious. I vote Aye, especially since I won't be fielding very many.

[Slacker]

Aye.

Klavo-think back to old school Seas of Steel. They're somewhere between ZOMG awesome! and crapulence.

I don't mind working out a system where you pay more points for better stuff-say the proposed system for 'normal' zepps, but if you want to spend 2 or 3 points per Zepp for an 'armored' design that would significantly outperform historical designs, that'd be spiffy.

[The Cleric]

I'm thinking useful for peacetime transportation and such. If not for the Hindenburg, there might still be a niche market for them, almost like cruise ships.

Cleric the floor is closed expect for voting. Please enter a vote or wait until afterwards to post arguments

[Academia Nut]

You know what? Even though I agree that zepplins aren't a great idea, I will vote yes on this set of rules. I kind of like the idea of quirky tech that has yet to be refined fully, with dead end ideas making things more interesting.

[Ezekiel]

Aye. Zeppelins are unseen and underused in too many non-steampunk games.

[Academia Nut]

Well, since the vote should have finished up by now, I would just like to point out a few things I've noticed while doing some preliminary work with the rules as presented to get a feel for things and to get a head start on having things in shape.

1) The way things are written right now with the doctrine focuses allowing for a certain percentage of industry being spent on points it is really hard to get things to add up to 100%. You need Navy 4, Army 5, Air Force 0 or Navy 5, Army 4, Air Force 0, etc. etc. Basically you need to sink nearly a third of your points into doctrines in order to actually use the points you bought at the start of the game. And since in order to get Navy higher than 2 you need to have Industry and Economy both at 4 or better, and getting Industry to 4 requires half your points right there, it seems damn near impossible to actually get to use 100% of your points.

2) Something is off with the point:size ratios for the armies. If I have a 3 in everything and put the 1 industrial bonus into the army that means that I have 280 points to spend on the army, and if I buy all infantry divisions at 10 points apiece that means I have 280,000 men and (including bonuses from colonies) Pop 4 + Econ 4 = 16% of 90 million or 14.4 million in reserves, which seems a touch off. Not the reserves per se, but rather the size disparity between the standing army and reserves. Even at standing army 5 and infantry 5 your standing army is at best half a million men. And that is if you are going for human wave tactics without bringing things like artillery into play. Now, I understand that the numbers given don't include support personnel, but the numbers still at least feel off.

[Steve]

Actually, getting Industry to max 5 is what takes half your points, but of course you get benefits from it anyway.

If Frigid considers the voting done, then I wish to propose the following amendments:

1) That Economy be redefined to increase or decrease Industrial building points in both peacetime and wartime. Economy below 3 would negatively modify peacetime and have lower wartime percentages. Economy above 3 would positively modify peacetime and further heighten wartime.

2) The prerequisites for Industry be modified to permit either Territory score to be used. Instead of one's colonies being the only score that counts it could be either Home or Colonial, depending on player's choice.

3) And as stated in the chat last night, I would like to convince the players that if we're going to do 1930s army tech and 1930s air tech, we might as well do 1930s ships.

4) Standing Military Limit be modified so that the negatives of going over 3 be reduced, at current it costs one 9 points to get to 5 SML due to the negative modifiers.

If the voting's not over with then we wait until it is before discussing/voting. And I go get my painkillers for when Magi breaks out the mod club.

[Academia Nut]

No, it requires 12 points in the other fields to get the prerequisites for Industry 4, and then the 4 points for the industry itself, bringing it up to 16 points out of 30. If you use the bonuses from the colonies then its only 14 points devoted. For Industry 5 you need 15 points in pop, inf, colonies, and economy with min 3 pop and 4 econ. So...

Colonies 5
Pop 1 +2
Econ 2 +2
Inf 3

11 points there, which means the absolute min is 16 points to get industry 5, and you need significant colonies outside of your home territory. If you want Naval 5 you need to spend another point in economy to get up to level 5, and then another 2 points because of the bonus from industry... total expenditure is 19 points so far. Then you're going to need to purchase a standing military. Let's go with 3. 22 points. 8 points remaining. With this min max set-up though, we now run into the opposite problem of what I brought up before in that you can take Army 5 and Air force 3 so you can spend:

60% on Navy
50% on Army
15% on Air force

125% total

I'm just saying that this percentage system is riddled with problems in that you're likely to either under or over shoot the 100% expenditure.

[Screwball]

If it's not too late to stick my foot in the the door, I'd like to join in. Tenuous concept of 1930s Ace Combat-esque Manchuria/Northern China chaps. Preferably without the 'lose the entire country bar one airbase' thing, though.

[Steve]

No, it requires 12 points in the other fields to get the prerequisites for Industry 4, and then the 4 points for the industry itself, bringing it up to 16 points out of 30. If you use the bonuses from the colonies then its only 14 points devoted. For Industry 5 you need 15 points in pop, inf, colonies, and economy with min 3 pop and 4 econ. So...

Colonies 5
Pop 1 +2
Econ 2 +2
Inf 3

11 points there, which means the absolute min is 16 points to get industry 5, and you need significant colonies outside of your home territory. If you want Naval 5 you need to spend another point in economy to get up to level 5, and then another 2 points because of the bonus from industry... total expenditure is 19 points so far. Then you're going to need to purchase a standing military. Let's go with 3. 22 points. 8 points remaining. With this min max set-up though, we now run into the opposite problem of what I brought up before in that you can take Army 5 and Air force 3 so you can spend:

60% on Navy
50% on Army
15% on Air force

125% total

I'm just saying that this percentage system is riddled with problems in that you're likely to either under or over shoot the 100% expenditure.

Oh, sorry, misunderstood you on the Industry thing.

Though logically the Focuses just mean how many points you can devote to each service. In this case, for instance, a player can spend as high as 60%, but then can only spend 40% on other services regardless of Focus score.

Oh, Screwball, interesting timing, Frigidmagi is interested in a player for the Qing Dynasty or really anyone to play the rest of China (or at least the interesting bits of the rest of China). Suggest you post in the other thread though, the "STGOD" thread as opposed to the Rules thread.