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#1 T-Rex, dead for millions of years. Still faster then Beckham
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 2:55 pm
by frigidmagi
YAAAAAHHHHOOOOO!
LONDON (Reuters) - The smallest dinosaur could reach speeds of nearly 40 mph (64 kph) and even the lumbering Tyrannosaurus rex would have been able to outrun most modern-day sportsmen, according to research published on Wednesday.
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Scientists using computer models calculated the top speeds for five meat-eating dinosaurs in a study they say can also illustrate how animals cope with climate change and extinction.
The velociraptor, whose speed and ferocity was highlighted in the film "Jurassic Park," reached 24 mph while the T-rex could muster speeds of up to 18 mph, the study published in the Royal Society's Biological Sciences showed.
"Our research, which used the minimum leg-muscle mass T-rex required for movement, suggests that while not incredibly fast, this carnivore was certainly capable of running and would have little difficulty in chasing down footballer David Beckham, for instance," said Phil Manning, a paleontologist at the University of Manchester, who worked on the study.
The smallest dinosaur -- the Compsognathus -- could run nearly 40 mph, about 5 mph faster than the computer's estimate for the fastest living animal on two legs, the ostrich.
A top human sprinter can reach a speed of about 25 mph.
The researchers used a computer model to calculate the running speeds of the five dinosaurs that varied in size from the 3-kg (6.6 pound) Compsognathus to a six-tonne Tyrannosaurus.
They fed information about the skeletal and muscular structure of the dinosaurs into the computer and ran a simulation tens of millions of times to see how fast the animals moved, said William Sellers, a zoologist at the University of Manchester, who led the study.
They checked their method by inputting data of a 70-kg human with the muscle and bone structure of a professional sportsman and found the computer accurately spat out a top running speed just behind T-rex's pace.
"People have estimated speeds before but they have always been indirect estimates and hard to verify," Sellers said. "What we found is they were all perfectly capable of running."
Looking at how these ancient animals lived and died out is also important in trying to predict how modern day species may cope with future climate change, Sellers added.
This study helps to build a biological picture that scientists can use to better understand how dinosaurs adapted to changes in the weather just before they went extinct some 65 million years ago, he said.
"Knowing how these animals coped over the past millions of years will give us clues to what is going to happen over the next thousand years," he said. "That is why there has been more recent interest in biology of these animals."
For us Americans, David Beckham is a soccer player.
#2
Posted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 7:42 pm
by LadyTevar
Is that the "Bend it like Beckham" thing?
So the T-Rex chasing the Jeep in JP1 is possible after all?
#3
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:51 am
by Comrade Tortoise
Heh... only for a short distance due to a jeep's acceleration... Now to calculate the force on a T Rex's rip cage when it trips at those speeds. Will have those tomorrow*
* You guys know I am an advocate of the "t rex was primarily a scavenger" position.
#4
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 8:41 am
by Cpl Kendall
LadyTevar wrote:Is that the "Bend it like Beckham" thing?
So the T-Rex chasing the Jeep in JP1 is possible after all?
No "Bend it like Beckham" was about an Indian girl that wanted to play soccer but her parents wouldn't let her because it wouldn't attract a husband, I believe.
#5
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:52 am
by Norseman
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Heh... only for a short distance due to a jeep's acceleration... Now to calculate the force on a T Rex's rip cage when it trips at those speeds. Will have those tomorrow*
* You guys know I am an advocate of the "t rex was primarily a scavenger" position.
I am with Calvin who said "Tyrannosaurus rex was a predator because that is more cool."
#6
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:40 pm
by LadyTevar
I like the idea of a family-pack hunter. Adolescents chase the prey towards Mama, and she makes the kill. Could be set up like a pride of lions, females hunt, male lurks around the territory and moves in once the prey's down. Or, the male just moves in and kill-steals.
#7
Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:36 pm
by Bloody Good
I doubt it was strictly either scavenger or predator. A predator will eat dead things it finds, and a scavenger will kill things if it gets hungry enough.
#8
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 2:58 am
by Comrade Tortoise
Bloody Good wrote:I doubt it was strictly either scavenger or predator. A predator will eat dead things it finds, and a scavenger will kill things if it gets hungry enough.
Hene "primarily" a scavenger. It's body was just not suited for active predation of anything other than the dead or nearly-dead.
#9
Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:24 pm
by Mayabird
Norseman wrote:Comrade Tortoise wrote:Heh... only for a short distance due to a jeep's acceleration... Now to calculate the force on a T Rex's rip cage when it trips at those speeds. Will have those tomorrow*
* You guys know I am an advocate of the "t rex was primarily a scavenger" position.
I am with Calvin who said "Tyrannosaurus rex was a predator because that is more cool."
I actually have the comics right here in front of me.
Hobbes: Which side will you defend?
Calvin: Oh, I believe they were fearsome predators, definitely.
Hobbes: How come?
Calvin: They're
so much cooler that way.
Calvin's paper, a few comics later:
"Ahem...I say tyrannosaurs were predators, because it would be so bogus if they just ate things that were already dead. The end."
#10
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:06 pm
by The Silence and I
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Hene "primarily" a scavenger. It's body was just not suited for active predation of anything other than the dead or nearly-dead.
Eh?
Compared to those therapods which
are considered active predators in what ways does T-Rex fail to stack up?
It's vision was binocular (more than many therapods could have claimed).
It possessed the most powerful bite known.
Its entire skull was flexible to an
absurdly complex degree (complexity is hard to maintain without selection pressure, Ben) which enhanced its bite power, shock absorption and ability to shear flesh.
Its neck was geared to absorb heavy shock.
Its inner ear structure was highly developed compared to other creatures its size (complexity is hard to maintain without selection pressure, Ben).
Its chest cavity was both relatively (to therapods) and absolutely spacious. I mean it was huge (read: large lungs and heart).
It possessed better thigh to shin bone ratios for speed than many therapods (not a sprinters leg, but better than the competition).
Its bones were hollow, the only advantages AFAIK of that being greater speed due to less mass and still greater lung capacity.
Add in the built for speed juveniles and the (rather limited) evidence for group structure of some kind.
Now we have a new computer model showing it was rather speedier than thought (and the likely prey were not Olympic sprinters themselves).
Unless I am forgetting something the reasons often listed to counter the above are:
Small arms. (T-Rex's bite makes up in the killing power department and few therapods possessed arms large enough to soften a fall at speed anyway.)
Small eyes. (As big as our eyes and we see very well with them.)
Big nose. (As soon as this becomes a bad feature for a predator I'll tell my dog.)
Activity that might result in falling is considered unwise. (Few of the larger therapods don't fall into this category and yet they are considered hunters.)
Longer thighs than shins. (Longer shins than many therapods, still fast enough. Besides, the large lungs suggest to me it was more of a relentless pursuer.)
#11
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:14 pm
by Charon
Along with all of Silence's response I'm going to add in "Why the fuck would something that is primarily a scavenger grow that big?" If the best you're going to be able to hope for is a meal that's already dead and picked at, you aren't going to want to be some giant that has to eat a lot more, you're going to want to be small, compact, and fast.
#12
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:14 pm
by LadyTevar
So... I guess my question is "Did T-Rexes hunt like Tigers, or like Wolves?"
Tigers: Lone sneak hunters. Use stealth to get close to prey then attack from cover.
Wolves: Pack hunters, endurance runners. Use communication to spread the pack along possible escape routes, then the prey is spooked and ran into traps where the experienced hunters make the kill. Chases can go for several minutes and cross a lot of territory.
#13
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:51 pm
by The Silence and I
LadyTevar wrote:So... I guess my question is "Did T-Rexes hunt like Tigers, or like Wolves?"
Tigers: Lone sneak hunters. Use stealth to get close to prey then attack from cover.
Wolves: Pack hunters, endurance runners. Use communication to spread the pack along possible escape routes, then the prey is spooked and ran into traps where the experienced hunters make the kill. Chases can go for several minutes and cross a lot of territory.
I favor the wolves idea, but there is no way to really tell at this point.
My reasons are:
The inner ear structures would have provided superior balance over a long chase.
The legs are well geared for a slower (but not slow) prolonged chase.
Something that big just ain't gonna want to slam into something else that big at high speed--although I will note it is built to handle it to an extent anyway.
Finally, the chest cavity is really hard to describe without flattering words. You can fit a lot of heart and lung in there, exactly what a wolf needs and a tiger does not.
#14
Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:58 pm
by frigidmagi
What becomes really important to ask now is how fast was the prey going? Hadrosaurs would be among the most likely prey species. If the duckbills run slower then 20 miles per hour then there is simply no damn need for the T Rex to be faster.
Also given the Rex's large lungs(more oxygen in the blood means you can run longer) and rather powerful legs, it seems quite likely that if the Rex is at equal or slightly lower speed, he can still simply run the fucker to death. Stone Age humans are known to have done the same thing and we cannot outrun deer (yes CT I know I won't hurt myself as bad as a Rex if I fall, that has nothing to do with my point which is that endurance hunting is possible).
#15
Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:52 pm
by Mayabird
The oxygen content of the air was quite a bit higher back then as well, around 35% oxygen content vs. 21% today.
While I'm here, a benefit to being large is that others can't eat you. Even if the T-rex was actually a scavenger, no matter how bogus that would be, it would still be too big and dangerous for any predators to attack.