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#1 Chimp and Human Ancestors Interbred?

Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:08 pm
by Mayabird
You may have heard about this, but if you haven't...
Human, Chimp Ancestors May Have Mated, DNA Suggests
Brian Handwerk
for National Geographic News
May 17, 2006

Early human ancestors and chimpanzee ancestors may have mated and produced offspring, according to a new DNA study.

The study suggests that the human and chimp lineages initially split off from a single ape species about ten million years ago. Later, early chimps and early human ancestors may have begun interbreeding, creating hybrids—and complicating and prolonging the evolutionary separation of the two lineages.

The second and final split occurred some four million years after the first one, the report proposes.

"One thing that emerges [from the data] is a reestimate of the date when humans and chimps last exchanged genes," said David Reich, a professor at Harvard Medical School's Department of Genetics in Boston.

"Our data strongly suggest that [the last gene exchange] occurred more recently than 6.3 million years ago and probably more recently than 5.4 million years ago," said Reich, senior author of the study, to be published tomorrow in the journal Nature.

"This paper is very interesting, because it provides a hypothesis that is outside of the currently accepted dogma," said Kateryna Makova, a professor at Pennsylvania State University's Center for Comparative Genomics and Bioinformatics who is unaffiliated with the study.

Did Human, Chimp Ancestors Hybridize?

"The genome analysis revealed big surprises, with major implications for human evolution," biologist Eric Lander said in a release announcing the findings. Lander is director of the Broad Institute, a cooperative institute for genomic medicine in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

A genome is an organism's complete set of DNA. The human genome, for example, contains some 3 billion base pairs, which code for the approximately 30,000 genes that define a person's unique traits. (See our quick overview of human genetics.)

"First, human-chimp speciation occurred more recently than previous estimates. Second, the speciation itself occurred in an unusual manner that left a striking impact across chromosome X," Lander said.

This sex-determining chromosome typically occurs in pairs in cells of females and combined with a Y chromosome in cells of males.

"The young age of chromosome X is an evolutionary smoking gun."

Different regions of the human and chimp genomes were found to have diverged at widely different times, and the two species' X chromosomes show a surprisingly recent divergence time.

This genetic evidence boosts the theory that the two species may have hybridized, because interbreeding causes strong selective pressure on the X chromosome and could have resulted in that chromosome's very young age in both humans and chimpanzees.

Different species can, and sometimes do, mate to produce hybrid offspring. Horses and donkeys produce mules, for example. Likewise, "rheboons" are the offspring of female baboons and male rhesus macaques.

Because most hybrid offspring can't reproduce, evolutionary biologists don't believe hybridization plays a significant role in the long-term evolutionary success of new animal species.

But recent research has found some evidence of the process in the development of unique fly and fish species.

"That such evolutionary events have not been seen more often in animal species may simply be due to the fact that we have not been looking for them," Harvard's Reich said.

Reich also explained that the new study doesn't prove that hybridization occurred.

"It's the only explanation that we could imagine," he said. "But there may be others that we can't imagine."

Penn State's Makova notes that a chimpanzee genome sequencing project she took part in pointed to "male mutation bias" as a possible cause of the X chromosome's young appearance. "Male mutation bias" is the term for a higher mutation rate in males than in females.

"To obtain a final answer … analysis of complete sequences of orangutan, macaque, and marmoset will be very helpful in obtaining better understanding of this question."

Researchers are currently working to generate those sequences, and studies of the Y chromosome in primates may also help to paint a clearer picture of the chimp-human split.

DNA and Fossil Evidence

If the new evolutionary timeline estimates prove correct they will raise interesting new questions about the status of notable fossils such as Sahelanthropus tchadensis, a species believed to be an early human precursor.

S. tchadensis, or Toumaï fossils have been dated to the proposed interval period between the initial divergence and the final human-chimp genetic split.

The Toumaï species has what are considered distinctive human features and consequently has been regarded as evidence that the lineages must have split before Toumaï's era, estimated at 6.5 to 7.4 million years ago.

"It is possible that the Toumaï fossil is more recent than previously thought," Nick Patterson, a senior research scientist at the Broad Institute, said in a statement.

"But if the dating is correct, the Toumaï fossil would precede the human-chimp split. The fact that it has humanlike features suggests that human-chimp speciation may have occurred over a long period, with episodes of hybridization between the emerging species."

Such a possibility raises some interesting questions about the relations of humans, chimps, and other primates.

"Are we the hybrids, or are chimps the hybrids—or are we both the hybrids?" Reich pondered.
Da dah dah DAH duh, da dah dah DAH dah dah da dah duh!

(Yes, that was supposed to be me saying the theme song. I couldn't help it.)

#2

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:30 am
by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Early human ancestors and chimpanzee ancestors may have mated and produced offspring, according to a new DNA study.
:shock: That really sounds so wrong. Wrong wrong wrong.

#3

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:32 am
by Comrade Tortoise
They probably wouldnt have even looked or behaved very differently at that point. doesnt seem all that bad KAN...

As

#4

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:37 am
by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Comrade Tortoise wrote:They probably wouldnt have even looked or behaved very differently at that point. doesnt seem all that bad KAN...
Nevertheless, upon reading the news I suddenly got a disturbing relevation on how exactly HIV, a sexually-transmitted virus, transmitted from apes to humans on the first place.... :shock:

#5

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:41 am
by Shark Bait
Ok i have to post this just for fun based on that last post. NSFW

#6

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:22 pm
by Mayabird
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Comrade Tortoise wrote:They probably wouldnt have even looked or behaved very differently at that point. doesnt seem all that bad KAN...
Nevertheless, upon reading the news I suddenly got a disturbing relevation on how exactly HIV, a sexually-transmitted virus, transmitted from apes to humans on the first place.... :shock:
Also spread through blood and fluids. It could've come from hunting and getting some chimp blood in a cut (or chimp blood through a bite). Why everyone (especially the dumbass fundies from my hometown, not that I'm being mean to you KAN but those people had very dirty minds behind the repression) assumes it came from having sex with monkeys I don't know.

Remember, these weren't humans as we know them. Hominids, yes, but not human. The only human-appearing part of them might have been limited bipedalism.

Also, Shark Bait, the link doesn't work. Probably for the better.

#7

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:47 pm
by Shark Bait
yeah probably for the better though it works for me, oh well and yes i'm aware that there are many other ways that HIV could have been transmitted from chimps to humans besides sex. As for the interbreeding it appears that like CT said it would have been at a point where our ancestors were still very similar to chimps, possibly similar to two animals in the same genus or so.

#8

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 4:14 pm
by Comrade Tortoise
Indeed. At that point the post-zygotic hybridization barriers probably werent there. It was probably due to geographic isolation which was occassionally overcome through migration, but not enough to really affect cladogenesis. I cant imagine sympatric speciation being how we came about, it would have almost had to allopatri speciation.

#9

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:18 pm
by LadyTevar
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Indeed. At that point the post-zygotic hybridization barriers probably werent there. It was probably due to geographic isolation which was occassionally overcome through migration, but not enough to really affect cladogenesis. I cant imagine sympatric speciation being how we came about, it would have almost had to allopatri speciation.
.......... In English please?

#10

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:38 pm
by Batman
Thank you most kindly, m'lady.

#11

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:45 pm
by Mayabird
What? I understood it. :razz:

Oh yeah, KAN, I forgot to mention before: the thing you should really be disturbed about is how human pubic lice is more closely related to gorilla lice than human head lice.

#12

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:53 pm
by Batman
Yes, but you're approximately 50% of our resident bio-nerds (well technically I should know this stuff, too, but none of you belive I'm really Batman anyway).
And frankly, this being KAN, there's so many things he should be disturbed about I stopped counting.

#13

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:21 pm
by Comrade Tortoise
LadyTevar wrote:
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Indeed. At that point the post-zygotic hybridization barriers probably werent there. It was probably due to geographic isolation which was occassionally overcome through migration, but not enough to really affect cladogenesis. I cant imagine sympatric speciation being how we came about, it would have almost had to allopatri speciation.
.......... In English please?
Basically there are two types of barriers to hybridization of two species. pre-gygotic (pre-mating) and post-zygotic (after mating)

Pre mating barriers are things like being geographically isolated so there is no interbreeding, or having different coloration or courtship behaviors so that mating is not ever attempted.

Post mating barriers are things which prevent the development of viable reproduction-capable offsrping after mating takes place. Such as harmful nuclear-cytoplasmic interactions in the resulting embrio, mismatched chromosomes. THings like that.

The most common form of spciation is called Allopatric speciation. It is caused principally by geographic isolation. Say, a piece of land breaks off from a river bank due to erosion and the local population of say... gall wasps gets cut off from the rest of them. Eventually, they will become distinct and speciate.

Sympatric speciation is where speciation occurs without that sort of isolation. Typically, this happens when a new environment opens up. Like Lake Tanganika in Africa. It is populated almost entirely by chichlid fish which used to be one species, but are now hundreds. When the lake opened up, they all went in and radiated into every single niche a fish could fill. Bottom-feeders, predators, seed eaters. Everything.

And to be fair, SHe is 1/3rd of the bio nerds on this board

#14

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 7:39 pm
by Mayabird
To further clarify what Comrade Tortoise is saying, humans have one less chromosome pair than chimpanzees and ITRC the other great apes (gorillas, etc.). Sometime after the split in our lineages two chromosome pairs seem to have fused into one. Interbreeding is quite difficult when the chromosomes can't pair up.



Now, it's time for me to be disturbing again.

You may say, "Horses and donkeys have that same one chromosome pair not-matchup but they still produce mules. Could we end up producing ape mules?"

Stalin tried.
In Soviet Russia...just, ewww.

#15

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:46 am
by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Mayabird wrote:Why everyone (especially the dumbass fundies from my hometown, not that I'm being mean to you KAN but those people had very dirty minds behind the repression) assumes it came from having sex with monkeys I don't know.
Well, in my case, that's because I'm simply KAN :wink:


Mayabird wrote:Now, it's time for me to be disturbing again.

You may say, "Horses and donkeys have that same one chromosome pair not-matchup but they still produce mules. Could we end up producing ape mules?"
Well, I read he tried to use monkey sperm on human volunteers, or the other way around. How would anyone ever, ugh, volunteer for the job still escapes me. :shock:

#16

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 8:13 am
by Mayabird
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Mayabird wrote:Now, it's time for me to be disturbing again.

You may say, "Horses and donkeys have that same one chromosome pair not-matchup but they still produce mules. Could we end up producing ape mules?"
Well, I read he tried to use monkey sperm on human volunteers, or the other way around. How would anyone ever, ugh, volunteer for the job still escapes me. :shock:
Stalin. Soviet Union. "Volunteer." You fill in the gaps.
<line 2>

#17

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:38 pm
by frigidmagi
The Marine Corp has a word for this. Voluntold.

#18

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 3:32 am
by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman
Mayabird wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:
Mayabird wrote:Now, it's time for me to be disturbing again.

You may say, "Horses and donkeys have that same one chromosome pair not-matchup but they still produce mules. Could we end up producing ape mules?"
Well, I read he tried to use monkey sperm on human volunteers, or the other way around. How would anyone ever, ugh, volunteer for the job still escapes me. :shock:
Stalin. Soviet Union. "Volunteer." You fill in the gaps.
<line 2>
The moral of the story: if you were Stalin, you can make people volunteer for anything including copulating with monkeys. :shock:

#19

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:57 pm
by Ali Sama
this site makes more sence now.
http://www.bushorchimp.com/
rofl.

Where do I bloody begin... Okay first, this is pretty much thread necromancy and it's bad. Second this is Spam that has nothing to do with the fucking topic, holy crap man we have a whole sub-forum for people to post anything they think is funny, how about using it instead of abusing Maya's poor thread? Thrid, I would consider this Trolling from most (say...If Narsil did it) and I'm sorely tempted to consider it trolling in your case. Cease and Desist at once. This is your only warning