LibriumArcana.Games

I was reading an interesting debate going on at another web board. The subject matter was precognition, reaction time and speed. Specifically, the topic was Jedi versus Superman, although that won't be the actual issue here.

As far as I can tell, the fans of Star Wars were insisting that precognition would allow an individual to defeat an opponent, even if they possess vastly superior speed. This seems quite logically flawed to me. The ability to anticipate an event does not equate to the ability to prevent or deflect it.

For example, before getting hit by a car, many people will anticipate this event. They may even have seconds worth of warning. Yet they still end up getting struck by said vehicle. Why is this the case if they aware of the upcoming event before it transpired?

Similiarily, suppose we have two opponents in a fighting arena. Fighter A, has precognition, the ability to sense actions and events before they happen. For the arguement, we'll say this individual can predict up to two minutes worth of future events.

Fighter B has no such sense, but possesses twenty times the speed of fighter A. As in for every hit fighter A can potentially land within a given time frame, fighter B can land twenty.

Between these two opponents (all things being equal aside from above mentioned differences), which one would be the logical victor?

In the 2 minute scenario, I'd think that precog would win. When the precog doesn't happen fast enough to allow for dodging or and reaction at all (say it takes you 2 seconds to move out of the way, and you get 1 second of precog. You lose.).

Even if you knew what was going to happen, you would have to give your brain time to process that information, think up the correct counter move, then still make your muscles do the movement. The faster guy would almost certainly win.

In the case of Jedi, the procog seemed bullshitish to me. I much prefer Ben's explaination in ANH - the Force controls your actions without the Jedi actually understanding what is going in. He just acts on instinct.

Precog is only good in a fight where you have lots of time to think, like a chess game, and even then it may not be useful.

The Cleric wrote:In the 2 minute scenario, I'd think that precog would win. When the precog doesn't happen fast enough to allow for dodging or and reaction at all (say it takes you 2 seconds to move out of the way, and you get 1 second of precog. You lose.).

Think of it this way: You have advanced warning that there is a nuclear warhead encased in cement at your feet. You know the device will detonate in just under two minutes. Essentially, you know the event will happen precisely two minutes before it does. Does this mean you can stop it?

Or in relative to the OP; if your opponent is going to hit you twenty times in twenty different locations, how does your knowing exactly where every hit will land allow you to block all of them if it's established you can only physically block one because of your speed limitations?

I think the difference is really on the level of the magnitude of the repsective abilities. Tone down the difference in power essentially

If the difference in speed is say, 2 to 1, it might be possible for precognitioin to be usefull, because such a person can exert some control over the fight itself, as opposed to simply hitting the other guy more times.

The problem with the fanwhore on the "other board" was he was unaware of the definition of precognition, and claimed it was still subject to reaction times.

Surlethe wrote:The problem with the fanwhore on the "other board" was he was unaware of the definition of precognition, and claimed it was still subject to reaction times.

Knowing about an event before it transpires does not equate be able to affect it's outcome. That was the logical problem I was seeing.

As in the Jedi example, they can clearly be killed even in full battle use precognition mode, as seen in AOTC. Many of the Jedi simply lacked the ability to defeat all blaster bolts coming at them, even if they anticipated them beforehand.

Robert Walper wrote:

Surlethe wrote:The problem with the fanwhore on the "other board" was he was unaware of the definition of precognition, and claimed it was still subject to reaction times.

Knowing about an event before it transpires does not equate be able to affect it's outcome. That was the logically problem I was seeing.

In the midst of the heated argument, there was some rational discussion about the requirements for reacting to precog. Dangermouse's posts are informative; and Ender's post demonstrating Jedi can react to c weapons pretty much cans the debate.

EDIT: responding to your edit ...

As in the Jedi example, they can clearly be killed even in full battle use precognition mode, as seen in AOTC. Many of the Jedi simply lacked the ability to defeat all blaster bolts killing them, even if they anticipated them beforehand.

That's true, though irrelevant in the context of that debate; another thing to keep in mind is Palpatine was shrouding the Force and inhibiting Jedi senses.

Surlethe wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:

Surlethe wrote:The problem with the fanwhore on the "other board" was he was unaware of the definition of precognition, and claimed it was still subject to reaction times.

Knowing about an event before it transpires does not equate be able to affect it's outcome. That was the logically problem I was seeing.

In the midst of the heated argument, there was some rational discussion about the requirements for reacting to precog. Dangermouse's posts are informative; and Ender's post demonstrating Jedi can react to c weapons pretty much cans the debate.

*nods* I'm not one to pick sides on the specific debate. I merely thought I saw some "precognition = unbeatable" stances.

I have to say merely being warned of the event doesn't always help. For example you're in a 10 by 10 room, the guy on the other side has decided to shot you with a laser. You're sitting down in a large chair (let's say to heavy to tip over and to deep to jump out quickly). The laser travels at light speed (before anyone brings up the Jedi, go ask if the Star Wars forces are actually using lasers) you travel at... lesser speeds.

Knowing a split second before you get hit won't really help you has you are phyiscally inable of outracing the laser by dint of being in a awkward position and being vastly slower than the speed of light.

On the other hand vs an oppotent with silimar speed, you're in gravy town.

frigidmagi wrote:I have to say merely being warned of the event doesn't always help. For example you're in a 10 by 10 room, the guy on the other side has decided to shot you with a laser. You're sitting down in a large chair (let's say to heavy to tip over and to deep to jump out quickly). The laser travels at light speed (before anyone brings up the Jedi, go ask if the Star Wars forces are actually using lasers) you travel at... lesser speeds.

Knowing a split second before you get hit won't really help you has you are phyiscally inable of outracing the laser by dint of being in a awkward position and being vastly slower than the speed of light.

On the other hand vs an oppotent with silimar speed, you're in gravy town.

Well, hence the OP giving fighter B a factor of twenty advantage in speed.

If both opponents are relatively equal, with one having the precognition advantage, they should win hands down.

If I'm not mistaken, some martial art forms include anticipating an opponents moves before he or she actually makes them. Our real world equivalent of "precognition".

If I'm not mistaken, some martial art forms include anticipating an opponents moves before he or she actually makes them. Our real world equivalent of "precognition".

Not really no. What you're talking about is reading the stance and the movements of an oppotent in order to determine what his most likey move will be. After all the human body is capable of only so many movements and only so many of those are effective in combat. So the knowledge that training gives you allows you to narrow it down, but it is not an act of precognition.

frigidmagi wrote:

If I'm not mistaken, some martial art forms include anticipating an opponents moves before he or she actually makes them. Our real world equivalent of "precognition".

Not really no. What you're talking about is reading the stance and the movements of an oppotent in order to determine what his most likey move will be. After all the human body is capable of only so many movements and only so many of those are effective in combat. So the knowledge that training gives you allows you to narrow it down, but it is not an act of precognition.

Well, I didn't mean to imply it's actual precognition. I basically meant what you described, but you were more thorough and accurate in the above description.

But to the uninformed person, the scene might look like precognition.

But to the uninformed person, the scene might look like precognition.

And to the uninformed person acts of science look like acts of magic.

There's a peaceful thread parallel to this one over at SDnet, if anyone wants to monitor it.

Here I thought this thread was pretty peaceful...

If it was simply the reaction time vs. Precog, say you would have someone that has reaction times in the nanoseconds and someone with precog, but neither are faster than the other, you have a stand off. Neither are able to hit the other.

I think it's rather obvious that if someone can hit another person about 20 times at about the same time, precog or not that person is not going to be able to stop them all, nor get out of the way.

frigidmagi wrote:Here I thought this thread was pretty peaceful...

As opposed to the precog thread in parting shots over at SD.net?

Robert Walper wrote:Think of it this way: You have advanced warning that there is a nuclear warhead encased in cement at your feet. You know the device will detonate in just under two minutes. Essentially, you know the event will happen precisely two minutes before it does. Does this mean you can stop it?

I imagined it more as a "a gun will fire in this direction at this specific time" scenario, not a general attack kind of thing.

Or in relative to the OP; if your opponent is going to hit you twenty times in twenty different locations, how does your knowing exactly where every hit will land allow you to block all of them if it's established you can only physically block one because of your speed limitations?

Given those circumstances, precog loses. I didn't know that you meant speed like that. In an "attack, withdraw, attack" precog should be able to hold it's own, if not go on the offensive.

The Cleric wrote:

Or in relative to the OP; if your opponent is going to hit you twenty times in twenty different locations, how does your knowing exactly where every hit will land allow you to block all of them if it's established you can only physically block one because of your speed limitations?

Given those circumstances, precog loses. I didn't know that you meant speed like that. In an "attack, withdraw, attack" precog should be able to hold it's own, if not go on the offensive.

Precognition is an interesting concept, however, as stated before just because you know an event is going to occur does not mean you have the ability to affect it's outcome.

As per the Jedi examples, it's clearly shown that even in their full combat mode they can be defeated by non Jedi, despite their precognition advantage. Jango Fett having effectively defeated Obi Won on Kamino proves that having the right advantages can counter the precognition concept.

As opposed to the precog thread in parting shots over at SD.net?

Wouldn't know, I've parted ways with SDN and I don't go back.

Robert Walper wrote:

The Cleric wrote:

Or in relative to the OP; if your opponent is going to hit you twenty times in twenty different locations, how does your knowing exactly where every hit will land allow you to block all of them if it's established you can only physically block one because of your speed limitations?

Given those circumstances, precog loses. I didn't know that you meant speed like that. In an "attack, withdraw, attack" precog should be able to hold it's own, if not go on the offensive.

Precognition is an interesting concept, however, as stated before just because you know an event is going to occur does not mean you have the ability to affect it's outcome.

As per the Jedi examples, it's clearly shown that even in their full combat mode they can be defeated by non Jedi, despite their precognition advantage. Jango Fett having effectively defeated Obi Won on Kamino proves that having the right advantages can counter the precognition concept.

You forget the ship mounted blaster he had to dodge...

Comrade Tortoise wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:

The Cleric wrote: Given those circumstances, precog loses. I didn't know that you meant speed like that. In an "attack, withdraw, attack" precog should be able to hold it's own, if not go on the offensive.

Precognition is an interesting concept, however, as stated before just because you know an event is going to occur does not mean you have the ability to affect it's outcome.

As per the Jedi examples, it's clearly shown that even in their full combat mode they can be defeated by non Jedi, despite their precognition advantage. Jango Fett having effectively defeated Obi Won on Kamino proves that having the right advantages can counter the precognition concept.

You forget the ship mounted blaster he had to dodge...

How is that not covered under "advantages" for Jango Fett?

Technically, it was not Jango, but his son, using that weapon.

If you are going to talk about precognition, dont stack the deck. Using minor precognition, and Jango Fett +Son+ship.

frigidmagi wrote:

As opposed to the precog thread in parting shots over at SD.net?

Wouldn't know, I've parted ways with SDN and I don't go back.

The thread which inspired this one was a little flamefest wherein a troll was banned; so, I compared the current thread at SD.net with the flamefest as peaceful.