Why is suicide wrong?

[Robert Walper]

Falsehood, absolute falsehood.. lets take the general case with a person who commits suicide. They suffer from chronic depression or untreated bi-polar disorder. oftentimes they suffer from psychotic disorders such as schitzophrenia. They are not mentally competant to make the choice. Even if they have the right to do it. So your assertion that people have the choice to commit suicide in ANY case is wrong.

Now, lets take a more off the wall case. The stock market crash. People jumped off buildings. This is because they were distraught and not thinking clearly. At the time, they were not mentally competant to make the choice.

Homeless people. Most of them suffer from one debilitating mental illness or another. Did you know that? They go off their meds and live on the street. If one of them kills themselves, see above point on people with mental illnesses. Of those that are not mentally ill, they tend not to commit suicide. And often times, their homelessness is short lived. A normal, healthy individual who is thinking clearly, and is, for example, merely hurting financially, will commit suicide.

Come on walper, point to an example of a person who was not mentally ill, in a western nation, commiting suicide. I dare you. Show me one. And I am not talking about hypothetical scenarios here, I am talking an actual case.

I recall one example of a elderly gentleman commiting suicide, in Canada IIRC. However, I won't bother looking it up, because you very obviously changed your stance from "no mentally fit person" to "no mentally fit person in a western nation". We call that moving the goal posts. I'll take that as a concession.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Falsehood, absolute falsehood.. lets take the general case with a person who commits suicide. They suffer from chronic depression or untreated bi-polar disorder. oftentimes they suffer from psychotic disorders such as schitzophrenia. They are not mentally competant to make the choice. Even if they have the right to do it. So your assertion that people have the choice to commit suicide in ANY case is wrong.

Now, lets take a more off the wall case. The stock market crash. People jumped off buildings. This is because they were distraught and not thinking clearly. At the time, they were not mentally competant to make the choice.

Homeless people. Most of them suffer from one debilitating mental illness or another. Did you know that? They go off their meds and live on the street. If one of them kills themselves, see above point on people with mental illnesses. Of those that are not mentally ill, they tend not to commit suicide. And often times, their homelessness is short lived. A normal, healthy individual who is thinking clearly, and is, for example, merely hurting financially, will commit suicide.

Come on walper, point to an example of a person who was not mentally ill, in a western nation, commiting suicide. I dare you. Show me one. And I am not talking about hypothetical scenarios here, I am talking an actual case.

I recall one example of a elderly gentleman commiting suicide, in Canada IIRC. However, I won't bother looking it up, because you very obviously changed your stance from "no mentally fit person" to "no mentally fit person in a western nation". We call that moving the goal posts. I'll take that as a concession.

Basically, I was discounting Samurai, and others who, for example, used suicide for ideological purposes. Those are special cases, and fall under the "kooky ideology" category I previously stated as an exception. So no, Goalposts are not moved. They are right were they were when I set mine a couple pages ago.

So no cop outs. Find a bloody example.

Dont try and cop out on me here.

[Robert Walper]

Simple ideology:

Suicide is not wrong, each has his or her right to live or die as you possess the control over your life. I do not want to enter religious arguments here; no energy.

It's not wrong to suicide, but it's a damn selfish move; it's a move that bestows a lot of grief upon the rest of your family and friends, it's cutting down the tree before drying its roots. I see no reason why suicide would be efficient or worthwhile in the broad sense (speaking in the mainstream of civilisation). If you've got family and friends, why suicide and cause grief? Why would you be such a bastard to act so?

It's not wrong morally, but you've got to be a self-righteous, sick little bugger to do it. You've got to be pretty screwed-over in your mind to do something like that.

That's me.

The problem being all acts by people are selfish. They only vary in their magnitude of affectings others. Furthermore a person is entitled to worry about their own interests above others.

Ultimately you're right. A person is eventually 100% selfish; the trick of civilisation is to make your interest at least partly congruent with those of the people closest to you. The situation must be truly drastic or you must be very queer in order to perform an act which is immorally, according to civilisation's etiquette, sick. Both cases I mentioned above that might lead to suicide are out of mainstream.

I don't subscribe to appealing to "civilization's morality or etiquette". 'Civilization' at one time had no problem burning people at the stake for not believing something as stupid as religion for example. Currently civilization has a majority of people asserting things like sex as immoral. Appealing to it's authority is very questionable in my opinion.

[Robert Walper]

Basically, I was discounting Samurai, and others who, for example, used suicide for ideological purposes. Those are special cases, and fall under the "kooky ideology" category I previously stated as an exception. So no, Goalposts are not moved. They are right were they were when I set mine a couple pages ago.

So no cop outs. Find a bloody example.

Dont try and cop out on me here.

You asserted "No mentally fit person will commit suicide", and then proceed to rattle off exceptions such as ideology and now localizing your demand for examples to the better parts of the world where suicide is generally a far less appealing prospect than living.

I countered your assertion that "no mentally fit person will commit suicide". I consider the arguement at rest.

[Surlethe]

You asserted "No mentally fit person will commit suicide", and then proceed to rattle off exceptions such as ideology and now localizing your demand for examples to the better parts of the world where suicide is generally a far less appealing prospect than living.

I countered your assertion that "no mentally fit person will commit suicide". I consider the arguement at rest.

Okay, how about this:

Find a real-life example where a healthy person without a kooky ideology or mental disease has committed suicide.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Basically, I was discounting Samurai, and others who, for example, used suicide for ideological purposes. Those are special cases, and fall under the "kooky ideology" category I previously stated as an exception. So no, Goalposts are not moved. They are right were they were when I set mine a couple pages ago.

So no cop outs. Find a bloody example.

Dont try and cop out on me here.

You asserted "No mentally fit person will commit suicide", and then proceed to rattle off exceptions such as ideology and now localizing your demand for examples to the better parts of the world where suicide is generally a far less appealing prospect than living.

I countered your assertion that "no mentally fit person will commit suicide". I consider the arguement at rest.

Where in western ciilization do people shot themselves over ideology? That is only anywhere near commonplace in asia. Seriously. Though, I could argue that those people are nuts as well. Would you really like me to?

[Robert Walper]

I fail to see the point in continuing to argue a mentally fit person can commit suicide since by your reasoning a person commiting suicide proves they are mentally unfit. In which case our perspectives on what defines "mentally fit" obviously differs.

[Surlethe]

I fail to see the point in continuing to argue a mentally fit person can commit suicide since by your reasoning a person commiting suicide proves they are mentally unfit. In which case our perspectives on what defines "mentally fit" obviously differs.

So let's define "mentally fit".

[Robert Walper]

I fail to see the point in continuing to argue a mentally fit person can commit suicide since by your reasoning a person commiting suicide proves they are mentally unfit. In which case our perspectives on what defines "mentally fit" obviously differs.

So let's define "mentally fit".

A good idea, but where to start? The ability to reason? Intelligence? Conformity to society's rules and regulations? I suspect this will be rather difficult to pin down to an exact definition.

[Comrade Tortoise]

I fail to see the point in continuing to argue a mentally fit person can commit suicide since by your reasoning a person commiting suicide proves they are mentally unfit. In which case our perspectives on what defines "mentally fit" obviously differs.

So let's define "mentally fit".

A good idea, but where to start? The ability to reason? Intelligence? Conformity to society's rules and regulations? I suspect this will be rather difficult to pin down to an exact definition.

Look in the DSM IV

[ImpishAngel]

I am refraining from doing the poll...because...I really don't see a option that suits me..and here is why...

You are arguing the fact of a SUCCESSFUL suicide, this means that the person actaully carried it out, and therefore, cannot really be judged, because no one will know what was really going on.

Being someone who has come from expierence, there are many reasons to try to commit suicide.. No, there not really great.. but to the person, they make perfect sense.

Being in a sever state of depression, confusion, or even just simply not wanting to live, are common additives to suicide. Many people that try, and some that succeed, feel that they are in a place that there is no way out, and that it will be too painful to continue. It is a quick solution, to what seems like a forever problem.
Suicide attempts, are a way of people reaching out, saying "I'm lost, and scared, and don't know what to do, and i'm not really sure if I even want help." some, even want help, and just don't want to ask, or are unsure how.

Therefore- It is impossible to judge the morallities of suicide, and weather it is wrong, or right, or if they are ''mentally fit''.

[Robert Walper]

So let's define "mentally fit".

A good idea, but where to start? The ability to reason? Intelligence? Conformity to society's rules and regulations? I suspect this will be rather difficult to pin down to an exact definition.

Look in the DSM IV

CT, I see little point in us further debating the point. You're convinced persons who attempt or commited suicide must be mentally unfit. I do not. I don't see either of us moving from that position.

[Surlethe]

CT, I see little point in us further debating the point. You're convinced persons who attempt or commited suicide must be mentally unfit. I do not. I don't see either of us moving from that position.

Heaven forbid reasonable people change their positions upon losing a debate.

[Robert Walper]

CT, I see little point in us further debating the point. You're convinced persons who attempt or commited suicide must be mentally unfit. I do not. I don't see either of us moving from that position.

Heaven forbid reasonable people change their positions upon losing a debate.

And in what way have I lost? I tried commiting suicide when younger, and technically succeded by virtue of my survival being completely beyond my control at the time. Do you assert I'm mentally unfit?

[Ace Pace]

Walper, if you survived you obviously planned it badly ;)

[Surlethe]

CT, I see little point in us further debating the point. You're convinced persons who attempt or commited suicide must be mentally unfit. I do not. I don't see either of us moving from that position.

Heaven forbid reasonable people change their positions upon losing a debate.

And in what way have I lost? I tried commiting suicide when younger, and technically succeded by virtue of my survival being completely beyond my control at the time. Do you assert I'm mentally unfit?

Thank you for completely missing my point, Robert, which regarded continuation of the debate, rather than any attack against you.

[Robert Walper]

Walper, if you survived you obviously planned it badly ;)

No, I actually didn't. I planned it rather thoroughly, and survived solely by fluke coincidence.

[Robert Walper]

Thank you for completely missing my point, Robert, which regarded continuation of the debate, rather than any attack against you.

I consider the concept "mentally fit" too subjective and abstract to make attempts at pinning a definitive form on it practical.

[Surlethe]

Thank you for completely missing my point, Robert, which regarded continuation of the debate, rather than any attack against you.

I consider the concept "mentally fit" too subjective and abstract to make attempts at pinning a definitive form on it practical.

Despite a proposed definition above? Now you're indulging in a no true scotsman.

[Robert Walper]

Thank you for completely missing my point, Robert, which regarded continuation of the debate, rather than any attack against you.

I consider the concept "mentally fit" too subjective and abstract to make attempts at pinning a definitive form on it practical.

Despite a proposed definition above? Now you're indulging in a no true scotsman.

Then by all means show me this proposed definition.

[Ace Pace]

Walper, if you survived you obviously planned it badly ;)

No, I actually didn't. I planned it rather thoroughly, and survived solely by fluke coincidence.

Ah, so I shouldn't assume Murpheys law stopping potential suciders?


*walks right on humming*

Acording to this debate, you're basicly saying the concept of suicide is mentally wrong, because it's genetic to us to continue breeding?

[Robert Walper]

Walper, if you survived you obviously planned it badly ;)

No, I actually didn't. I planned it rather thoroughly, and survived solely by fluke coincidence.

Ah, so I shouldn't assume Murpheys law stopping potential suciders?

*walks right on humming*

Acording to this debate, you're basicly saying the concept of suicide is mentally wrong, because it's genetic to us to continue breeding?

WTF are you going on about Ace? You aren't making sense.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Thank you for completely missing my point, Robert, which regarded continuation of the debate, rather than any attack against you.

I consider the concept "mentally fit" too subjective and abstract to make attempts at pinning a definitive form on it practical.

Well both APA's disagree Walper. And yes, when you tried to commit suicide, chances are you were messed up in head. Think about your reasons for wanting to commit suicide. Do you honestly think that you were thinking clearly?

I have already proposed a definition for mental illness, which by the way is the official definition used in the DSM IV tr. It is not subjective, they are fairly well defined categories. And suicide attempts are almost universally indicative of mental disease or defect, because they fit the definition put forth by both APAs

[Ace Pace]

Ah, so I shouldn't assume Murpheys law stopping potential suciders?

*walks right on humming*

Acording to this debate, you're basicly saying the concept of suicide is mentally wrong, because it's genetic to us to continue breeding?

WTF are you going on about Ace? You aren't making sense.

Damn ;) Well that makes me fit under CTs definition of mentally Ill, I'm not making sense, I'm pondering the thread subject, so I'm mentally Ill.

[Robert Walper]

Thank you for completely missing my point, Robert, which regarded continuation of the debate, rather than any attack against you.

I consider the concept "mentally fit" too subjective and abstract to make attempts at pinning a definitive form on it practical.

Well both APA's disagree Walper. And yes, when you tried to commit suicide, chances are you were messed up in head. Think about your reasons for wanting to commit suicide. Do you honestly think that you were thinking clearly?

Yes. Clearly enough to keep my intentions completely hidden over the course of several weeks (not one person saw it coming) and taking a great deal of time to plan the effort. Researching the means on how death would occur (in the case, it was understanding hypothermia). Chosing the method based upon the fact anything going wrong (as in the attempt fails) allowed for full recovery. My motivations were irritation at the difficulty and complications of life, knowing it was optional, and coupled with curiousity on death. My perspective has not changed. I merely chose to live now.

I have already proposed a definition for mental illness, which by the way is the official definition used in the DSM IV tr. It is not subjective, they are fairly well defined categories. And suicide attempts are almost universally indicative of mental disease or defect, because they fit the definition put forth by both APAs

Well, considering the objective physcological docters who analysed me were baffled as to why I'd commit suicide, I'd say I'm a case of a mentally fit person who attempted suicide, thus proving my point. Although how I could prove this beyond "take my word for it" strikes me as difficult. I won't be posting medical records just to prove a point online in a, and ultimately not that important, debate.