Why is suicide wrong?

[Comrade Tortoise]

Update on my search:

The only academic literature I have found so far uses "rational" suicide as a reference to suicide by the terminally ill.

So, I suppose I will have to stick two toothpicks in a frenchfry and call myself a philosophy major. Let me colate my thoughts, I will be back from class in a few hours

[Knife]

I find the whole tread......odd. If you define suicide as simply; killing one's self. It is easy to still argue immorality.

Removing god; since I don't believe in that anyway, suicide is wrong. If this is the only chance you have at life, prematurely ending it by your own hand is couter productive to your own exsistence.

Arguing some semblece of personal freedom rings hallow too. If you lived as some sort of hermit in the deep, dark jungles, then you might have a point. Seeing as how you are posting on an internet board, I'm going to go ahead and put forward the notion that at some level you are participating in society.

As such, you owe society some semblence of a dept of responsibility for your life. We, as society, have dragged you kicking and screaming to this point and have invested a certain amoung of resources in you. For you to cash out now, when we've put so much into you expecting some pay back, is cheating us. So as selfish as you wish to be, you are being immoral to 'check out early' without paying back your debt to society.

Nobody enters this world alone, you might leave it alone, but that does not abagate your responsibility to the culture that helped you every step of the way. Saying that you are the 'master of your own destiney' is turning a blind eye to all that went in to making 'you'....'you'.

So selfishness can be ruled out. Nobody is their own 'ultimate master' so you can't use that as a cop out.

According to http://www.focusas.com/Suicide.html, while most suicides are decreasing, teenage suicides are increasing.

Trippleing, if you read the article, but the 'risk factor' is explained as 'depression', which fits the 'mentally unstable' category previously mentioned in the tread.

Reading this link; http://www.healthyplace.com/communities ... dren_9.asp; again children and teens seem to be the culprits. 2%-6% attempt to kill themselves, 1% succeed. Of those who try, 4% keep going at it until they succeed.

The article continues to say that those children with a 'Major Depressive Disorder' are 7 times more likely to commit suicide.........Screw it;

If a child has major depressive disorder, he or she is seven times more likely to try suicide. About 22% of depressed children will try suicide. Looking at it another way, children and teenagers who attempt suicide are 8 times more likely to have a mood disorder, three times more likely to have an anxiety disorder, and 6 times more likely to have a substance abuse problem. A family history of suicidal behavior and guns that are available also increase the risk. The vast majority (almost 90%) of children and adolescents who attempt suicide have psychiatric disorders. Over 75% have had some psychiatric contact in the last year. If a number of these are present, suicide risk needs to be carefully assessed regularly. If children are constantly dwelling on death and think being dead would be kind of nice, they are more likely to make a serious attempt.

90% have psychiatric disorders. Over 75% have some psychiactric contact in the last year.

Telling? I think so.

Futher;

Many people have thought that the main reason that children and adolescents try to kill themselves is to manipulate others or get attention or as a "cry for help". However, when children and adolescents are actually asked right after their suicide attempts, their reasons for trying suicide are more like adults. For a third, their main reason for trying to kill themselves is they wanted to die. Another third wanted to escape from a hopeless situation or a horrible state of mind. Only about 10% were trying to get attention. Only 2% saw getting help as the chief reason for trying suicide. The children who truly wanted to die were more depressed, more angry, and were more perfectionistic.

So for a third, their main reason to die, is so they can 'die'. Not exactly a well thought out reason. I have no problem really, with some one wanting to die for a particular reason. To die for the sake of dying isn't a reasonable answer. To escape from a hopless situation is even worse, since life is fluid. An 18 year old may not have the life experience to appreciate it, but it is there none the less.

The rest boil down to 'attension'. Honestly, to die for the sake of dying reeks of 'attension' but I'm no expert.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=52791; further shows that idea that suicide is some semblence of a short time disability, at least, if not a long term problem, rather than a rational explanation as to why a young adult would prematurely end his/her life.

Suicide may be collequally put with euthenasia and other 'quick deaths' like jumping on a gernade or other such, but it is more of a justification than anything.

In euthianasia or the pervebial 'give your life for another' the critical factor usually is that you are going to die at that time anyway, choose your way out.

Euthinasia is more of a unnatural extension anyway, you are choosing when that artifical extension ends, rather than the natural. With a 'sacrafice for others', innement death is already there, you're just choosing to 'save others' by your death.

A true suicide is more about the self aborbsion of your self, not the well being of others, not removing some artificial extension. It is an abnormal thought process, and thus in mentally unstable and unjustified.

IMO, anyway. (Sorry for grammar and typo's)

[Comrade Tortoise]

As for the above mentioned "rational suicide" as defined by walper as the rational desire to end one;s own existence when not under duress by a termnal illness and not under the influence of religious practice, I have to say that it is not justifiable. By what criteria does a person judge whether life is no longer worth living?

[Robert Walper]

I find the whole tread......odd. If you define suicide as simply; killing one's self. It is easy to still argue immorality.

Removing god; since I don't believe in that anyway, suicide is wrong. If this is the only chance you have at life, prematurely ending it by your own hand is couter productive to your own exsistence.

From your point of view. Morality is subjective, therefore defining suicide as "wrong" is subjective.

Arguing some semblece of personal freedom rings hallow too. If you lived as some sort of hermit in the deep, dark jungles, then you might have a point. Seeing as how you are posting on an internet board, I'm going to go ahead and put forward the notion that at some level you are participating in society.

As such, you owe society some semblence of a dept of responsibility for your life. We, as society, have dragged you kicking and screaming to this point and have invested a certain amoung of resources in you. For you to cash out now, when we've put so much into you expecting some pay back, is cheating us. So as selfish as you wish to be, you are being immoral to 'check out early' without paying back your debt to society.

I'll dismiss this arguement on the basis it virtually jusitifes slavery. I presume you will realize just how minor the changes to wording would make it so.

Nobody enters this world alone, you might leave it alone, but that does not abagate your responsibility to the culture that helped you every step of the way. Saying that you are the 'master of your own destiney' is turning a blind eye to all that went in to making 'you'....'you'.

Basically, limiting one's freedom by invoking "you owe us!", despite the fact you yourself pointed out that the individual had no choice in being born.

So selfishness can be ruled out. Nobody is their own 'ultimate master' so you can't use that as a cop out.

According to http://www.focusas.com/Suicide.html, while most suicides are decreasing, teenage suicides are increasing.

Trippleing, if you read the article, but the 'risk factor' is explained as 'depression', which fits the 'mentally unstable' category previously mentioned in the tread.

No one here has denied the majority of suicides are based upon either mental instability or irrational thinking. I only assert that not every case means "mentally unfit".

Reading this link; http://www.healthyplace.com/communities ... dren_9.asp; again children and teens seem to be the culprits. 2%-6% attempt to kill themselves, 1% succeed. Of those who try, 4% keep going at it until they succeed.

The article continues to say that those children with a 'Major Depressive Disorder' are 7 times more likely to commit suicide.........Screw it;

If a child has major depressive disorder, he or she is seven times more likely to try suicide. About 22% of depressed children will try suicide. Looking at it another way, children and teenagers who attempt suicide are 8 times more likely to have a mood disorder, three times more likely to have an anxiety disorder, and 6 times more likely to have a substance abuse problem. A family history of suicidal behavior and guns that are available also increase the risk. The vast majority (almost 90%) of children and adolescents who attempt suicide have psychiatric disorders. Over 75% have had some psychiatric contact in the last year. If a number of these are present, suicide risk needs to be carefully assessed regularly. If children are constantly dwelling on death and think being dead would be kind of nice, they are more likely to make a serious attempt.

90% have psychiatric disorders. Over 75% have some psychiactric contact in the last year.

Telling? I think so.

Those figures only provide further evidence that rational suicide is far from "not possible".

Futher;

Many people have thought that the main reason that children and adolescents try to kill themselves is to manipulate others or get attention or as a "cry for help". However, when children and adolescents are actually asked right after their suicide attempts, their reasons for trying suicide are more like adults. For a third, their main reason for trying to kill themselves is they wanted to die. Another third wanted to escape from a hopeless situation or a horrible state of mind. Only about 10% were trying to get attention. Only 2% saw getting help as the chief reason for trying suicide. The children who truly wanted to die were more depressed, more angry, and were more perfectionistic.

So for a third, their main reason to die, is so they can 'die'. Not exactly a well thought out reason. I have no problem really, with some one wanting to die for a particular reason. To die for the sake of dying isn't a reasonable answer.

Who are you to decide? By your reasoning, wanting to eat for the sake of eating (ie: enjoying the taste of ood) is "not an answer".

To escape from a hopless situation is even worse, since life is fluid.

A truely horrible perspective. By your reasoning, no matter how hopeless ( a term that is self descriptive) a situation is, attempting to escape it by via any means necessary is "wrong".

An 18 year old may not have the life experience to appreciate it, but it is there none the less.

The rest boil down to 'attension'. Honestly, to die for the sake of dying reeks of 'attension' but I'm no expert.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/ ... ekey=52791; further shows that idea that suicide is some semblence of a short time disability, at least, if not a long term problem, rather than a rational explanation as to why a young adult would prematurely end his/her life.

Suicide may be collequally put with euthenasia and other 'quick deaths' like jumping on a gernade or other such, but it is more of a justification than anything.

In euthianasia or the pervebial 'give your life for another' the critical factor usually is that you are going to die at that time anyway, choose your way out.

Euthinasia is more of a unnatural extension anyway, you are choosing when that artifical extension ends, rather than the natural. With a 'sacrafice for others', innement death is already there, you're just choosing to 'save others' by your death.

A true suicide is more about the self aborbsion of your self, not the well being of others, not removing some artificial extension. It is an abnormal thought process, and thus in mentally unstable and unjustified.

IMO, anyway. (Sorry for grammar and typo's)

As I've stated before, every person is entitled to look out for their own interests first.

[Robert Walper]

As for the above mentioned "rational suicide" as defined by walper as the rational desire to end one;s own existence when not under duress by a termnal illness and not under the influence of religious practice, I have to say that it is not justifiable. By what criteria does a person judge whether life is no longer worth living?

Cost to benefit ratio.

[Comrade Tortoise]

As for the above mentioned "rational suicide" as defined by walper as the rational desire to end one;s own existence when not under duress by a termnal illness and not under the influence of religious practice, I have to say that it is not justifiable. By what criteria does a person judge whether life is no longer worth living?

Cost to benefit ratio.

Elaborate

[Robert Walper]

As for the above mentioned "rational suicide" as defined by walper as the rational desire to end one;s own existence when not under duress by a termnal illness and not under the influence of religious practice, I have to say that it is not justifiable. By what criteria does a person judge whether life is no longer worth living?

Cost to benefit ratio.

Elaborate

Meaning person may determine that the hardships and difficulties of life are not worth the effort, or that the undesireable outweighs the desireable aspects of it.

Another example being black slaves who killed themselves to avoid a life of slavery. I sincerely hope you wouldn't classify them as mentally unfit, as the majority of slaves gathered would've been healthy individuals from Africa living relatively good lives until captured. And they most certainly fit your criteria of not being "diseased" or "mentally ill". They simply were faced with a concept of life that was less desireable than death.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Meaning person may determine that the hardships and difficulties of life are not worth the effort, or that the undesireable outweighs the desireable aspects of it.

Another example being black slaves who killed themselves to avoid a life of slavery. I sincerely hope you wouldn't classify them as mentally unfit, as the majority of slaves gathered would've been healthy individuals from Africa living relatively good lives until captured. And they most certainly fit your criteria of not being "diseased" or "mentally ill". They simply were faced with a concept of life that was less desireable than death.

It is justifiable. However, what about say, a modern housewife. Or your apparantly non-depressed reason to commit suicide. Come on man, you cant honestly tell me that one can reach the logical conclusion that life is not worth living, if they have no outstanding major issues like slavery, terminal illness, or cult-like religious nutbaggery.

No quality of life issue, save for that mentioned above, cannot be improved. Hell, even slavery can be improved, lots of slaves escaped back in those days. SOme even mailed themselves to free states. And to think that the improvement is not worth the effort, and it would be better just to die, is an inherently irrational line of thought, and despite what a river in egypt might say, there is some serious underlying issue that needs to be adressed.

Remember, a person diagnosed with depression will say the same thing. "Oh, It is just not worth living anymore. it would be easier on everyone if I was dead" which is a load of malarky

[Robert Walper]

Meaning person may determine that the hardships and difficulties of life are not worth the effort, or that the undesireable outweighs the desireable aspects of it.

Another example being black slaves who killed themselves to avoid a life of slavery. I sincerely hope you wouldn't classify them as mentally unfit, as the majority of slaves gathered would've been healthy individuals from Africa living relatively good lives until captured. And they most certainly fit your criteria of not being "diseased" or "mentally ill". They simply were faced with a concept of life that was less desireable than death.

It is justifiable. However, what about say, a modern housewife. Or your apparantly non-depressed reason to commit suicide. Come on man, you cant honestly tell me that one can reach the logical conclusion that life is not worth living, if they have no outstanding major issues like slavery, terminal illness, or cult-like religious nutbaggery.

Well, of course there has to be a reason to commit suicide. It's not my intent to suggest that John Doe will wake up one day and simply decide "I think I'll die today by killing myself". Obviously one must carefully examine every case to determine how and why a person would decide such a thing, and even if you or I think the reasons can be overcome or beaten doesn't mean they think so or want to. But this doesn't make them by default "mentally unfit", even if large portions of suicide cases can be classified as so. My arguement is merely "suicide =! mentally unfit".

No quality of life issue, save for that mentioned above, cannot be improved. Hell, even slavery can be improved, lots of slaves escaped back in those days. SOme even mailed themselves to free states. And to think that the improvement is not worth the effort, and it would be better just to die, is an inherently irrational line of thought, and despite what a river in egypt might say, there is some serious underlying issue that needs to be adressed.

There's obviously core issues. Intelligence and the ability to reason one's way out of situations that are seemingly hopeless is most certainly a possibility. However, inexperience or inadaquate intelligence on such things does not equate "mentally unfit".

Remember, a person diagnosed with depression will say the same thing. "Oh, It is just not worth living anymore. it would be easier on everyone if I was dead" which is a load of malarky

Not necessarily "it would be easier for everyone", but that it would be "easier" for the individual. As I've stated before, people are inherently selfish. Some more so than others, but this doesn't make them mentally unfit.

CT, your assertion was "no mentally fit person" would commit suicide. Your claim works perhaps to an extent. But as you are most likely aware, you keep making exceptions. Illness, ideology, religion, and now slavery. I have to point out the fact you must make such exceptions (and add to them) proves the point in the first place.

[Comrade Tortoise]

CT, your assertion was "no mentally fit person" would commit suicide. Your claim works perhaps to an extent. But as you are most likely aware, you keep making exceptions. Illness, ideology, religion, and now slavery. I have to point out the fact you must make such exceptions (and add to them) proves the point in the first place.

Suicide due to terminal illness is flat out not considered suicide for the purposes of this argument. it is in a different category, euthenasia. Religion/ideology, are technically the same category, and I would argue that in the vast majority of cases it is due to what is essentially brainwashing, (See: cults) and thus, those people, while not crazy, are not thinking rationally. Slavery, well, killing ones self due to being enslaved is irrational. One can always escape. So again, while they are no crazy, they are not making a rational choice, due to significant duress

Remember, I am arguing that no mentally fit person who is not under some form ofsignificant duress or coercion will kill themselves. It rules out what I am arguing agsainst. "rational" suicide, as it seems to be defined above. Someone thinking that life is to difficult (or whatever), and that it would be easier to kill themselves.

There's obviously core issues. Intelligence and the ability to reason one's way out of situations that are seemingly hopeless is most certainly a possibility. However, inexperience or inadaquate intelligence on such things does not equate "mentally unfit".

To use slavery as an example, reasoning one's way out of it was not needed. Even a dog will attempt to escape a cruel master. Itg doesnt take a lot of brains to sneak away after dark. So, if a person kills themselves in such a situation, they were undoubtedly unstable, because it takes so litle effort to do somthing else.

Not necessarily "it would be easier for everyone", but that it would be "easier" for the individual. As I've stated before, people are inherently selfish. Some more so than others, but this doesn't make them mentally unfit.

Oh please, no cost-benefit analysis can reach that conclusion.
The energy involved in suicide is moot, and while it solves the immediate problem, there is no benefit. Only relief from unpleasantness AND pleasantness. It is a neutral outcome.

By choosing to extricate themselves from a situation while still breathing, a person removes the unpleasant stimulus, keeps the pleasant stimuli, and is rewarded by additional pleasant stimuli. The energy involved in improving ones situtation is far outweighed by the benefits. So if a person is really just selfish, and not just doing a very good job of hiding mental instability, they will choose life, and improvement of their situation.

[Robert Walper]

CT, your assertion was "no mentally fit person" would commit suicide. Your claim works perhaps to an extent. But as you are most likely aware, you keep making exceptions. Illness, ideology, religion, and now slavery. I have to point out the fact you must make such exceptions (and add to them) proves the point in the first place.

Suicide due to terminal illness is flat out not considered suicide for the purposes of this argument. it is in a different category, euthenasia.

Well, I do consider that suicide, so obviously we cannot agree on the arguement without agreed upon premises. People's inclinations to distance themselves from concepts by giving them different names doesn't concern me. I've heard this more than enough: "It's not sex, it's 'physcial intimicy". It's not 'death', it 'going to a different plain of existence. It's not suicide, it's euthanasia. Etc, etc, etc." I call a spade a spade.

Religion/ideology, are technically the same category, and I would argue that in the vast majority of cases it is due to what is essentially brainwashing, (See: cults) and thus, those people, while not crazy, are not thinking rationally. Slavery, well, killing ones self due to being enslaved is irrational. One can always escape. So again, while they are no crazy, they are not making a rational choice, due to significant duress

Remember, I am arguing that no mentally fit person who is not under some form ofsignificant duress or coercion will kill themselves. It rules out what I am arguing agsainst. "rational" suicide, as it seems to be defined above. Someone thinking that life is to difficult (or whatever), and that it would be easier to kill themselves.

Your arguement is just a "Don't think like me = mentally unfit".

To use slavery as an example, reasoning one's way out of it was not needed. Even a dog will attempt to escape a cruel master.

Dog's aren't as intelligent as human beings, who can with their superior intelligence determine escape as "impractical" or "improbably" to such a degree that it may as well be impossible.

Itg doesnt take a lot of brains to sneak away after dark. So, if a person kills themselves in such a situation, they were undoubtedly unstable, because it takes so litle effort to do somthing else.

Well, if you don't subscribe to the concept of "live free or die", that's not my problem. Other people do, myself included. Your personal terror and stigma on death doesn't dictate my feelings or others on it.

Not necessarily "it would be easier for everyone", but that it would be "easier" for the individual. As I've stated before, people are inherently selfish. Some more so than others, but this doesn't make them mentally unfit.

Oh please, no cost-benefit analysis can reach that conclusion.
The energy involved in suicide is moot, and while it solves the immediate problem, there is no benefit. Only relief from unpleasantness AND pleasantness. It is a neutral outcome.

Cost to benefit ratio in terms of unpleasantness > pleasantness.

Imagine the purchase of a twenty thousand dollar painting. Some think the price is more than worth it (+), others think the price is ridiculas (-), while others simply have no interest in purchasing it at all (-/+). You're arguement basically boils down to saying that those who don't buy the painting (regardless of whether it's unpleasant or not) are "mentally unfit".

By choosing to extricate themselves from a situation while still breathing, a person removes the unpleasant stimulus, keeps the pleasant stimuli, and is rewarded by additional pleasant stimuli. The energy involved in improving ones situtation is far outweighed by the benefits. So if a person is really just selfish, and not just doing a very good job of hiding mental instability, they will choose life, and improvement of their situation.

You seem to think that's always possible. Obviously it isn't, and furthermore, again, who are you to dictate what effort is worth the supposed 'gain' for other people?

Some person may be willing, even happy to take a job at $2 for twelve hours of work a day. I don't. Does that make me mentally unfit? Of course it doesn't.

[Robert Walper]

And frankly, CT, I'm growing tired of your manipulative and dishonest manner here. You've now added "under duress" and "coercion" to your growing list of "exceptions" to rational suicide.

Anyone with half a brain can see that you'll just keep on adding to that list until all that's left is those who commit suicide due to mental instability or irrational reasons, which shouldn't be difficult since I've already agreed that a large portion of suicides is due to those factors.

I expect an apology for this behavior. If you decide to not provide one, I'll keep that in mind for future reference. No point in debating people who will not debate in a proper manner.

[Comrade Tortoise]

if you didnt take my words out of context you would note that "duress" and "coercion" refer to things like terminal illness and the coercive force of a third party entity, such as a cult leader. One would not conclude that the members of the Jim Jones cult were under anything but a form of coercive force, correct? Just because I use a synonymous blanket term so I didnt have to type a list, does not mean I was trying to manipulate the definition.

Basically my aim is to define my terms in such a manner that things which are obviously conceeded as not indicative of mental illness or unfitness, are left out. Things like euthenasia, or the use of force/brainwashing by a third party, and restricting my position to normal people who wish to commit suicide of what could be considered their own volition, unaffected by already impending death, or third party force.

Do you get it now walper, or are you going to continue your attempts to light a strawman on fire?

If I was unclear, I do apologize.

Dog's aren't as intelligent as human beings, who can with their superior intelligence determine escape as "impractical" or "improbably" to such a degree that it may as well be impossible

BS. Escape is always possible. People have escaped from prisons, and thousands escaped from slavery. There have been escapes from POW camps, and death marches.

Well, if you don't subscribe to the concept of "live free or die", that's not my problem. Other people do, myself included. Your personal terror and stigma on death doesn't dictate my feelings or others on it.

Those who subscribe to that ideology tend to attempt to have their cake and eat it to. By escaping.

But that is a side issue, I have already conceeded that a slave, while they are thinking irrationaly, is not insane for commiting suicide.

Consider the argument that "no mentally fit person will commit suicide" conceeded and ammended to " very few mentally fit individuals will commit suicide without highly unusual circumstances akin to those specified above"

The manner now is to hammer out what constitutes said circumstances.

[Bratty]

Honestly, what you consider highly unusual, I see day to day.

Good old fashioned slobs who try to "escape" and fail. Not because they are better or worse, but because they didn't get the right straw or their eyes are crossed funny.

Absolutely truths have a tendency to apply to only the perspective of the person applying them.

Incidently, I find that most people who draw absolute truths rarely have life experiences to back it up.

Perspectives again, but nothing read in a book. You don't learn this shit in school. You live it.

Sorry darlin, I do believe that life is a choice, and for some it is cost verses benefit. You can call that person a wanker or not enduring or whatever you would like because they gave up, but when one looses hope, then it really is broken down in whether it is even worth it or not.

I don't believe anything lives in a bubble.

Alas, you will not find me rebuttalling in debate style approach. Nor will you find me digging through text books for responses. You may consider this response trivial. But my response is based off experience, both mine and others. So I suppose this will be my only 2 cents on the matter.

[Knife]

From your point of view. Morality is subjective, therefore defining suicide as "wrong" is subjective.

Morality is subjective, merley because different people have differnt views as to the way they want to live their lives. Living their lives is a key factor in most moralities. The lack of life, one could argue is the anti-moral. Since to have morality, one must be alive.

You can insert some 'black and white fallacy' if you wish, but to have a moral system, you must be alive. Subjective has nothing to do with it, to have an opinion, you still must be alive.

I'll dismiss this arguement on the basis it virtually jusitifes slavery. I presume you will realize just how minor the changes to wording would make it so.

Wrong, it does not abacate slavery, rather it abacatates responsibility. Do you pay for your internet? Your power? Your 'Dell acount' bill? Being responsible is not slavery, slavery is forced servitude. Nobody is 'forceing ' you to partake in society. In fact, at any time, instead of killing your self, I invite you to remove yourself from society and get a hut some where in the pacific north west in the middle of nowhere and live you life seperate from civilization.

Basically, limiting one's freedom by invoking "you owe us!", despite the fact you yourself pointed out that the individual had no choice in being born.

Society does not own you, however, if you benifit from society, you ethically and arguable; morally owe society at some level for the benifits you enjoyed. To say that for some reason society owes you the benifits you enjoy is bullshit. Turn your argument around, what have you done for society? You've taken from a system, morally speaking, you owe that system something in return.

No one here has denied the majority of suicides are based upon either mental instability or irrational thinking. I only assert that not every case means "mentally unfit".

While I'm sure that your antedoltal example is trageic, statistacally speaking, even if you are indeed the exception rather than the rule, most are unstable people.

Those figures only provide further evidence that rational suicide is far from "not possible".

Uhm, no. It shows that most people, %90, are irrational when they try or suceed in suicide. Statistically, you are irrational if you try to commit suicide.

Who are you to decide? By your reasoning, wanting to eat for the sake of eating (ie: enjoying the taste of ood) is "not an answer".

I am drawing conclusions from the data. If ~%90 of people commiting suicide are mentally unstable, that is enough to show that 'suicide' in itself is abnormal. Objectively, to kill your self to kill yourself is NOT an answer, rather a pathetic excuse. The fact that such a percentage defines their attempt as just to 'kill themselves' illistrates this point.

A truely horrible perspective. By your reasoning, no matter how hopeless ( a term that is self descriptive) a situation is, attempting to escape it by via any means necessary is "wrong".

And every paper cut should have a turnaquet. That is your argument? The mere fact that some one going through a bad period of time instantly jumps to the 'must kill myself' instead of some lower increment, doesn't sound like a leap in logic to you?

As I've stated before, every person is entitled to look out for their own interests first.

This isn't about some microscopic view of your own problems. An objective look at suicide clearly shows that it is immoral under widely different views of morality. God or no god, you are depriving yourself from everything and anything. YOu are screwing your loved ones and anyone that you may know or someday may know. All the effort put into you life by you and everyone else is forfiet.

To justify it, you have to go into vast amounts of twists and turns instead of admitting that you are not in your right mind when you come to the conclusion that you should off yourself.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

From your point of view. Morality is subjective, therefore defining suicide as "wrong" is subjective.

Morality is subjective, merley because different people have differnt views as to the way they want to live their lives. Living their lives is a key factor in most moralities. The lack of life, one could argue is the anti-moral. Since to have morality, one must be alive.

Hold on, while one needs to live in order to have morality, then the lack of life is amoral instead of anti-moral.

I am drawing conclusions from the data. If ~%90 of people commiting suicide are mentally unstable, that is enough to show that 'suicide' in itself is abnormal.

Knife, there's a big difference between 'mostly' and 'always'. The remaining ten percent is enough to show that people commiting suicide is not always mentally unstable.

[Comrade Tortoise]

Knife, there's a big difference between 'mostly' and 'always'. The remaining ten percent is enough to show that people commiting suicide is not always mentally unstable.

The remaining 10% consist of special circumstances such as terminal illness et al.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

The remaining 10% consist of special circumstances such as terminal illness et al.

And includes the rational suicide which based on cost-benefit consideration. Robert himself is an example, isn't him?

Ben, while it may be true that the majority of people commiting suicide is due to temporary instability or such, we cannot deny that people can also commit suicide based on rational, cost-benefit thinking.

Mind you, there are situations that people feel worse than death (and according to atheistic mindset, at least in death we feel nothing, because we simply don't exist, right?), and if people choose to not going through it, I don't think we can blame them, or generalizing them as 'mentally unstable' or 'kooky'.

[Robert Walper]

The remaining 10% consist of special circumstances such as terminal illness et al.

And includes the rational suicide which based on cost-benefit consideration. Robert himself is an example, isn't him?

I do consider myself an example, although I understand that as the subject I obviously lack a certain objectivity in the assertion. The only thing that allows me to effectively claim so is my own opinion, and only so because it is backed up by the doctors who also could not define me as irrational or mentally unstable. This is why they couldn't keep me in the ward (a obvious location they'll put a person who attempted sucide in). They had no grounds to do so.

[Squidgey]

Quote:

As I've stated before, every person is entitled to look out for their own interests first.


This isn't about some microscopic view of your own problems. An objective look at suicide clearly shows that it is immoral under widely different views of morality. God or no god, you are depriving yourself from everything and anything. YOu are screwing your loved ones and anyone that you may know or someday may know. All the effort put into you life by you and everyone else is forfiet.

To justify it, you have to go into vast amounts of twists and turns instead of admitting that you are not in your right mind when you come to the conclusion that you should off yourself.

This view is basically my view on the whole point of suicide.

It's not just you you'll be effecting.

My thoughts are majorly fucked up on this issue at the moment and I didn't read the entire thread, but to stick you into my shoes for a minute, yesterday, I spent 8 hours non-stop on MSN with a girl I'd met last week via an online game. She basically opened up to me and admitted to having attempted suicide 3 times within the past year, the most recent 2 weeks ago.

I'm still amazed by the simple fact that when it actually comes to helping and listening to people I can use everything they say and cycle it back to them. Basically, I psycho analyzed this girl. Got to the heart of the problem and helped her to realise that life is worth living, that she is of worth to herself and those around her, and that life as a whole is worth living.

We're all going to die.

It's natural.

We've also got only a very limited time upon this earth to experience and contribute as much as possible in the tiny blip of time we have. To throw it all away because the current phase of life is shit and fucked up is to take the cowards way out and to hurt more people then you realise.

Basically the Mantra, tomorrow is another day applies most pertinently here then elsewhere.

Fuck it.

Look, I'm leaving this post as it is, I'm too emotionally and physically drained to discuss this right now, but the simple fact is, I've managed to make one person promise (where a promise is The most important thing in the world) to not attempt to kill herself again and to continue with life.

To sum it up, Life, no matter how shitty it may get, is still life. It's here to be lived through, to work through all the hardships that come up in front of ones-self, to conquer them and rise above it to better times.

Stuff thi shit, I can't deal with it again!

[Rukia]

My thoughts are majorly fucked up on this issue at the moment and I didn't read the entire thread, but to stick you into my shoes for a minute, yesterday, I spent 8 hours non-stop on MSN with a girl I'd met last week via an online game. She basically opened up to me and admitted to having attempted suicide 3 times within the past year, the most recent 2 weeks ago.

I'm still amazed by the simple fact that when it actually comes to helping and listening to people I can use everything they say and cycle it back to them. Basically, I psycho analyzed this girl. Got to the heart of the problem and helped her to realise that life is worth living, that she is of worth to herself and those around her, and that life as a whole is worth living.

The girl he is talking about... That's me. Seriously, literally.

Breaking it down after attempting it, suicide does seem like the cliched "permenate solution to a temporary problem." In the breath before, one can argue that it is nice to have control over one thing in your life when everything is out of your hands.

I can say that at least once it was a cry for help... I wanted someone to be there, to listen.

There was a quote I wanted to put here but couldn't find it. It was something about children and their reasons for sucidal thoughts...

If a child has major depressive disorder, he or she is seven times more likely to try suicide. About 22% of depressed children will try suicide. Looking at it another way, children and teenagers who attempt suicide are 8 times more likely to have a mood disorder, three times more likely to have an anxiety disorder, and 6 times more likely to have a substance abuse problem. A family history of suicidal behavior and guns that are available also increase the risk. The vast majority (almost 90%) of children and adolescents who attempt suicide have psychiatric disorders. Over 75% have had some psychiatric contact in the last year. If a number of these are present, suicide risk needs to be carefully assessed regularly. If children are constantly dwelling on death and think being dead would be kind of nice, they are more likely to make a serious attempt.

I am manic deperessive. I'm sure most of you know what that is but for thoes who don't...

A manic-depressive illness or "bipolar mood disorder" is a disturbance of a person's mood characterized by alternating periods of depression and mania. Switching from one mood to another is referred to as a mood swing. Mood swings can be mild, moderate or severe and are accompanied by changes in thinking and behaviour. The course of the illness varies from patient to patient. Without treatment, the frequency and severity of this recurring illness can increase over the years.

Although lay people will ordinarily use the term "manic-depressive illness', psychiatric professionals are increasingly using the term "bipolar mood disorder" as is demanded by current diagnostic manuals. Bipolar refers to the "two poles" of the continuum of mood or "spirits" with depression or feeling down at one end and mania or feeling high at the other end.

Basically I can be you're best friend one minute and you're worst enemy the next.
Better example:
One minute I'm happy and productive the next... introverted and abortive, wanting to kill myself.

To justify it, you have to go into vast amounts of twists and turns instead of admitting that you are not in your right mind when you come to the conclusion that you should off yourself.

It's true... but the only reason we have to twist it (right mind or not) is because in our society it is morally unacceptable to end ones life. Therefore, the reasons we have for killing ourselves, that we find completely vaild in our minds, don't fly with the people on the outside. No one can truly understand what goes on inside another persons head. Trust me, I've been to four psychologists, and two psychotherepists in the past two years. None could really understand my motives because they are set in the mind frame "something is wrong with you", and "suicide is wrong"

That being said... although I have promised that I will never attempt it, unfortunately, because of my "condition", I can't promise that the thought won't cross my mind again.

One more thing....

If you ever get to the point of wanting to kill yourself... try to think of happy things... it's harder to swollow pills/ hold a gun or knife steady, when your laughing....
:ROFL

Thanks Luke...

[Squidgey]

No worries Rukia.

:ROFL