Why is suicide wrong?

S&L: Discussion of matters pertaining to theoretical and applied sciences, and logical thought.

Moderator: Charon

I think...

Suicide is wrong, because *cough*it's*cough*againstthewillofGod*cough*.
1
5%
Suicide is wrong, but the reason has nothing to do with religion (note: please specify the reason)
11
58%
There's nothing wrong with suicide; everyone's live belongs to their own.
6
32%
Suicide is wrong but castration is not. Castrate Kreshna!
1
5%
 
Total votes: 19

Robert Walper
Adept
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:37 am
19

#101

Post by Robert Walper »

Ace Pace wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:
Ah, so I shouldn't assume Murpheys law stopping potential suciders?

*walks right on humming*

Acording to this debate, you're basicly saying the concept of suicide is mentally wrong, because it's genetic to us to continue breeding?
WTF are you going on about Ace? You aren't making sense.
Damn ;) Well that makes me fit under CTs definition of mentally Ill, I'm not making sense, I'm pondering the thread subject, so I'm mentally Ill.
Ace, you never had to prove you're mentally ill. Most of us probably would've supported you on that assertion. :wink: :razz:
User avatar
Ace Pace
Antisemetical Semite
Posts: 2272
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 10:28 am
19
Location: Cuddling with stress pills
Contact:

#102

Post by Ace Pace »

If I was a worse person(damn, I'm not?) I'd mention you're being far too joking for a serious thread.

:wink:
[img=left]http://www.libriumarcana.com/Uploads/Ace/acewip7.jpg[/img]Grand Dolphin Conspiracy
The twin cub, the Cyborg dolphin wolf.

Dorsk 81: this is why I support the separation of Aces eyebrow's, something that ugly should never be joined

Mayabird:You see what this place does to us? It's like how Eskimos have their 16 names for snow. We have to precisely define what shafting we're receiving.

"Do we think Israel would be nuts enough to go back into Lebanon with Olmert still in power and calling the shots? They could hook Sharon up to a heart monitor and interpret the blips and bleeps as "yes" and "no" and do better than that, both strategically and emotionally."
User avatar
Surlethe
Initiate
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:30 am
19
Location: Putting off studying for finals ... even after finals are done

#103

Post by Surlethe »

Robert Walper wrote:Then by all means show me this proposed definition.
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Look in the DSM IV
--CoVD: Every time Vin Diesel kills God, a kitten masturbates.--
Image
BANDWIDTH THIEF
"Forgive you?" Leto's voice was full of sweet reason. "Of course I forgive you. That is your God's function. Your crime is forgiven. However, your stupidity requires a response." ~Frank Herbert, God-Emperor of Dune
ACPATHNTDWATGODW
The Death Brigade
Robert Walper
Adept
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:37 am
19

#104

Post by Robert Walper »

Surlethe wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Then by all means show me this proposed definition.
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Look in the DSM IV
Let me be more specific. Provide a working link or summary of this definition, with highlights on the portion(s) that exclude persons in non western worlds or ones subscribing to "kooky" ideology from being "mentally fit".
User avatar
The Morrigan
Initiate
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 pm
19
Location: Brisvegas, home of the oddly mishapen footbridge.
Contact:

#105

Post by The Morrigan »

Robert Walper wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Walper, if you survived you obviously planned it badly ;)
No, I actually didn't. I planned it rather thoroughly, and survived solely by fluke coincidence.
You know, I can't help but feel that there is a story behind this that is considerably more interesting that the actual subject of this thread. :???:

Surlethe wrote:Heaven forbid reasonable people change their positions upon losing a debate.
I fail to see how anybody can either win or lose this debate given that:
  1. It is based on subjective views of morality
  2. As far as I can gather, nobody has even managed to define the subject
  3. I'm bored and want to see if one of you people will actually implode under the sheer weight of your own pomposity. :neutral:
Last edited by The Morrigan on Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
The sickening taste, homophobic jokes
Images of facist votes
Beam me up 'cause I can't breath...


Image
There is no universal truth. Fucking deal with it | Worship the Comic
User avatar
Lindar
Adept
Posts: 1100
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:46 am
19
Location: The Grrrrls Lair
Contact:

#106

Post by Lindar »

The Morrigan wrote: [*] I'm bored and want to see if one of you people will actually implode under the sheer weight of your own pomposity. :neutral:
Morrigan...as much as we might want tosee such an event sometimes... i highly doubt that it's going to happen. And you are right. The subject is based on everyones views... that's part of what makes it so difficult.

/emo
[img=left]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/ ... rlysig.jpg[/img]
Terminally Flirtatious : Gotham Grrl : Imp-kin : Comm Major : NOT a Blonde : Empyrean Night~Good Friends don't let friends die
"Oh, pipe down! It's not like you've never been bound and gagged before." - Harley Quinn.
Robert Walper
Adept
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:37 am
19

#107

Post by Robert Walper »

The Morrigan wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: No, I actually didn't. I planned it rather thoroughly, and survived solely by fluke coincidence.
You know, I can't help but feel that there is a story behind this that is considerably more interesting that the actual subject of this thread. :???:
*shrugs* It doesn't bother me to discuss it, but I don't routinely bring up for the specific reason of potential accusations of being a sympathy or attention seeker. Obviously it came up here as a means of pointing out I have actual personal experience on the subject.
I fail to see how anybody can either win or lose this debate given that:
  1. It is based on subjective views of morality
  2. As far as I can gather, nobody has even managed to define the subject
  3. I'm bored and want to see if one of you people will actually implode under the sheer weight of your own pomposity. :neutral:
The currently debated aspect isn't the morality of suicide, but CT's assertion that only a diseased or mentally ill person would attempt or do so. He's obviously incorrect, as proven by his attempts to dismiss ideological reasons, and even has gone so far as to exclude parts of the world other than western worlds. That may as well be a concession as far as I'm concerned.
Robert Walper
Adept
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:37 am
19

#108

Post by Robert Walper »

Alright, CT. Despite my admitted irritation with your intentional limiting of examples "within western countries", I'll submit to your request.

First, a direct example as you requested:

Link #1
Carolyn G. Heilbrun's suicide this past October could not have come as a great surprise to her family and friends. After all, the 77-year-old former Columbia University literature professor and mystery author had written for years about her plans to kill herself.

Heilbrun was suffering from none of the conditions commonly associated with suicide when she evidently took an overdose of pills and put a plastic bag over her head. She was neither terminally ill, in severe pain nor, apparently, depressed. Instead, she committed what some have called "rational suicide" -- ending one's life out of a conviction that one has lived long enough, that the likely future holds more pain than joy.

Rational suicide, a coinage dating back nearly a century, has also been called balance-sheet suicide, suggesting that sane individuals can objectively weigh the pros and cons of continued life, and then decide in favor of death.
Secondly, a interesting article you may want to give a read over on the subject of suicide, society's stigma and misconceptions on it:

Link #2
I believe we need to either recognize rational suicide, or develop a new term to describe it. Given that such suicides are rational, is it not also rational to allow such patients the benefit of discussion of their dilemma without patronization, and unwanted attempts at psychiatric treatment. If their desire is rational must we deny them a rational means to accomplish their desire; the alternative is for them in desperation to use the common methods employed by the elderly such as hanging, shooting, gassing, drowning, cutting, jumping, or to be forced to suffer that which most dread without relief. If their desire is rational, how should medical practitioners deal with a request for assistance in achieving that rational suicide in a humane manner? They can ignore it, or patronize it, or try to change it (which they should do if they have any doubt that the request is rational), or they can assist by veiled means (terminal sedation) or directly by a prescription of appropriate medication, coupled with counseling and ongoing support, trying to ensure that such action is never taken before it is absolutely necessary.
User avatar
The Morrigan
Initiate
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 pm
19
Location: Brisvegas, home of the oddly mishapen footbridge.
Contact:

#109

Post by The Morrigan »

Robert Walper wrote:The currently debated aspect isn't the morality of suicide, but CT's assertion that only a diseased or mentally ill person would attempt or do so. He's obviously incorrect, as proven by his attempts to dismiss ideological reasons, and even has gone so far as to exclude parts of the world other than western worlds. That may as well be a concession as far as I'm concerned.
Whatever. Do wake me up when you sort it out and/or this discussion ceases to involve people carrying on as though their personal beliefes and/or moral foibles were established fact. :neutral:
The sickening taste, homophobic jokes
Images of facist votes
Beam me up 'cause I can't breath...


Image
There is no universal truth. Fucking deal with it | Worship the Comic
User avatar
Stofsk
Secret Agent Man
Posts: 1710
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:46 pm
19
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

#110

Post by Stofsk »

Morrigan, don't post unless you have something to contribute to the discussion taking place. It's CT and Walper's game, not yours.
User avatar
The Morrigan
Initiate
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 pm
19
Location: Brisvegas, home of the oddly mishapen footbridge.
Contact:

#111

Post by The Morrigan »

Stofsk wrote:Morrigan, don't post unless you have something to contribute to the discussion taking place. It's CT and Walper's game, not yours.
Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was a game or that I needed an invitation to participate. And my 'contribution' was to point out the general absurdity of the turn this discussion has taken.
The sickening taste, homophobic jokes
Images of facist votes
Beam me up 'cause I can't breath...


Image
There is no universal truth. Fucking deal with it | Worship the Comic
User avatar
Stofsk
Secret Agent Man
Posts: 1710
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:46 pm
19
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

#112

Post by Stofsk »

The Morrigan wrote:Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was a game or that I needed an invitation to participate.
Don't be snide.
And my 'contribution' was to point out the general absurdity of the turn this discussion has taken.
...In your opinion. Others may not share it. If all you're going to do is insult other people and deride them without actually getting involved in the discussion, then take a step back.
User avatar
The Morrigan
Initiate
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 pm
19
Location: Brisvegas, home of the oddly mishapen footbridge.
Contact:

#113

Post by The Morrigan »

Stofsk wrote:
The Morrigan wrote:Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was a game or that I needed an invitation to participate.
Don't be snide.
Why one earth not?
And my 'contribution' was to point out the general absurdity of the turn this discussion has taken.
...In your opinion. Others may not share it. If all you're going to do is insult other people and deride them without actually getting involved in the discussion, then take a step back.
If others don't share my opinion, they are free to say so. After all, this thread is basically about opinions.
The sickening taste, homophobic jokes
Images of facist votes
Beam me up 'cause I can't breath...


Image
There is no universal truth. Fucking deal with it | Worship the Comic
User avatar
Stofsk
Secret Agent Man
Posts: 1710
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:46 pm
19
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

#114

Post by Stofsk »

The Morrigan wrote:
Stofsk wrote:
The Morrigan wrote:Oh I'm sorry. I didn't realise it was a game or that I needed an invitation to participate.
Don't be snide.
Why one earth not?
For one reason, there is no cause to be snide. For another, it makes you out to be a jerk. A third reason: this forum is meant to engender more civilised discourse, thus being snide goes against the rules.
If others don't share my opinion, they are free to say so. After all, this thread is basically about opinions.
No, this thread is about discussing a particular topic. Opinions are nothing. If you have an argument, that's something.

And you didn't offer an argument in the recent posts. You simply said "I can't wait to watch one of you implode under your own pompous weight." Because you found it entertaining due to being 'bored'.

So if you're actually going to discuss something then by all means do so, but we're not monkeys to perform for your pleasure. And nobody wants the thread hijacked because someone here can't stop herself from posting off topic.
Robert Walper
Adept
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:37 am
19

#115

Post by Robert Walper »

The Morrigan wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:The currently debated aspect isn't the morality of suicide, but CT's assertion that only a diseased or mentally ill person would attempt or do so. He's obviously incorrect, as proven by his attempts to dismiss ideological reasons, and even has gone so far as to exclude parts of the world other than western worlds. That may as well be a concession as far as I'm concerned.
Whatever. Do wake me up when you sort it out and/or this discussion ceases to involve people carrying on as though their personal beliefes and/or moral foibles were established fact. :neutral:
Again you obviously misunderstand, thinking the specific debate between CT and myself is about the morality of suicide (although it is just branching off the main topic). Suicide being right or wrong is indeed a subjective opinion based upon subjective morality. However, determing the mental fitness of a person most certainly has basis in fact, especially given CT's seeming knowledge of official ways of determining such mental states. But wrong or not based upon any morality, does not mean actions are incapable of being enacted by rational or irration persons.
User avatar
The Morrigan
Initiate
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 pm
19
Location: Brisvegas, home of the oddly mishapen footbridge.
Contact:

#116

Post by The Morrigan »

Stofsk wrote:Opinions are nothing.
In a discussion pertaining to the morality of a particular action, opinion is everything. The side issue of defining the term 'suicide' (which in any case seems to have become hopelessly mutilated by people trying to discount any definitions that do not support their arguments) and sanity do not detract from the fact that this ultimately a discussion about people's personal opinions. Unless of course, you are asserting that there is any final arbiter of morality. If opinion were nothing, there would be not point in this forum even existing.

And while I am willing to accept that their may be some final arbiter of sanity (although I'm not sure that anybody here is in fact qualified to make the call), the matter is as best just as much a diversion as my comments on the general ridiculousness of the direction this discussion has taken.

And for my two cents, if no sane person can commit suicide, it would seem to take the issue out of the realms of morality because the suicide would be incapable of making a moral judgement. Suicide would be merely a symptom of an illness and no more immoral than breaking out in puss-filled boils. But of course, I'm not allowed to comment because this is Walper and CT's little 'game'.

As for civilised discussion, obviously your definition of the term differs greatly from mine. :lol:
Last edited by The Morrigan on Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The sickening taste, homophobic jokes
Images of facist votes
Beam me up 'cause I can't breath...


Image
There is no universal truth. Fucking deal with it | Worship the Comic
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#117

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

Let me be more specific. Provide a working link or summary of this definition, with highlights on the portion(s) that exclude persons in non western worlds or ones subscribing to "kooky" ideology from being "mentally fit".
I have already posted it previously. I would be happy to recap. A person is "mentally fit" if they do not do or think things which fall into all of the following categories

Abnormality
Maladaptiveness
Disturbingness
Unfustifiability

Now, I requested western countries because there are different social norms in eastern countries which I cannot comment on. For example, ritualistic suicide in feudal japan. Besides, the who point of something being mentally wrong, is the first cetegory, abnormality. If everyone is expected to behave in a certain way, then it makes sense to exclude those cultures in which people are expected to kill themelves. Oddly enough, most people with "kooky ideologies" fall into this category. Example, the buddhists who set themselves on fire in S. Vietnam during the war.

As for your first link. I wish a psych consult could be done post mortem in order to determine whether or not it really is as reported in the washington post.

On the second

*reads*

No... not a biased source at all.

I will have to read the appropriate scientific literature on "rational suicide" and get back to you. It may take a while before my next response as I will be scouring the internet and the journal archives at ASU
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
The Morrigan
Initiate
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 pm
19
Location: Brisvegas, home of the oddly mishapen footbridge.
Contact:

#118

Post by The Morrigan »

Comrade Tortoise wrote:Oddly enough, most people with "kooky ideologies" fall into this category. Example, the buddhists who set themselves on fire in S. Vietnam during the war.
Ok, serious question here. Do people who ritualistically eat food that they believe to be somehow (and in no physically discernable way) transfigured into the flesh and blood of their God (who is, incidentally, at the same time both three people and one) or who ritualistically mutilate the genitals of their children fall into your definition of "kooky ideology"? How about men and women who voluntarily consign themselves to a life of celibacy and in some cases confinement? How about a bunch of people who will not sit down to discuss the matter of whether a person is guilty of a crime and whether that person should be confined in a prison for the term of their natural life, unless certain members of the assembled are wearing elaborate horse-hair wigs?
The sickening taste, homophobic jokes
Images of facist votes
Beam me up 'cause I can't breath...


Image
There is no universal truth. Fucking deal with it | Worship the Comic
User avatar
Stofsk
Secret Agent Man
Posts: 1710
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:46 pm
19
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

#119

Post by Stofsk »

The Morrigan wrote:But of course, I'm not allowed to comment because this is Walper and CT's little 'game'.
Can the sarcasm. Since you didn't post on-topic until I bent your arm, don't pretend like you're some modern day prometheus just because the big-bad-moderator told you to behave.
User avatar
The Morrigan
Initiate
Posts: 239
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 8:14 pm
19
Location: Brisvegas, home of the oddly mishapen footbridge.
Contact:

#120

Post by The Morrigan »

Stofsk wrote:
The Morrigan wrote:But of course, I'm not allowed to comment because this is Walper and CT's little 'game'.
Can the sarcasm. Since you didn't post on-topic until I bent your arm, don't pretend like you're some modern day prometheus just because the big-bad-moderator told you to behave.
Big bad? Oh dear. :lol:

Prometheus? I suppose that makes you one of the Gods then does it?

And in precisely what way did you bend my arm?
Last edited by The Morrigan on Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
The sickening taste, homophobic jokes
Images of facist votes
Beam me up 'cause I can't breath...


Image
There is no universal truth. Fucking deal with it | Worship the Comic
Robert Walper
Adept
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:37 am
19

#121

Post by Robert Walper »

Morrigan, if you have constructive responses, points and arguements to post, by all means do so. But any further posts on your part that serve no purpose other than sarcasm, complaints about the current discussion, or outright dishonesty (ie: you're "not allowed comment" remark), and they will be split from the main thread and tossed down below.
Robert Walper
Adept
Posts: 1087
Joined: Wed Jun 08, 2005 7:37 am
19

#122

Post by Robert Walper »

Comrade Tortoise wrote:
Let me be more specific. Provide a working link or summary of this definition, with highlights on the portion(s) that exclude persons in non western worlds or ones subscribing to "kooky" ideology from being "mentally fit".
I have already posted it previously. I would be happy to recap. A person is "mentally fit" if they do not do or think things which fall into all of the following categories

Abnormality
Maladaptiveness
Disturbingness
Unfustifiability

Now, I requested western countries because there are different social norms in eastern countries which I cannot comment on. For example, ritualistic suicide in feudal japan. Besides, the who point of something being mentally wrong, is the first cetegory, abnormality. If everyone is expected to behave in a certain way, then it makes sense to exclude those cultures in which people are expected to kill themelves. Oddly enough, most people with "kooky ideologies" fall into this category. Example, the buddhists who set themselves on fire in S. Vietnam during the war.
However, my point stands. A mentally fit person can commit suicide. That's been my point all along. I never specified anything more than that.
As for your first link. I wish a psych consult could be done post mortem in order to determine whether or not it really is as reported in the washington post.
I cannot say. I'm assuming it's an actual story, and IIRC there was one right here in Calgary I read in the paper awhile back (although I cannot seem to find it).
On the second

*reads*

No... not a biased source at all.
I presume you're not being sarcastic...
I will have to read the appropriate scientific literature on "rational suicide" and get back to you. It may take a while before my next response as I will be scouring the internet and the journal archives at ASU
*nods* Take your time. I look forward to resuming our discussion then.
Last edited by Robert Walper on Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Surlethe
Initiate
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:30 am
19
Location: Putting off studying for finals ... even after finals are done

#123

Post by Surlethe »

The Morrigan wrote:
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Oddly enough, most people with "kooky ideologies" fall into this category. Example, the buddhists who set themselves on fire in S. Vietnam during the war.
Ok, serious question here. Do people who ritualistically eat food that they believe to be somehow (and in no physically discernable way) transfigured into the flesh and blood of their God (who is, incidentally, at the same time both three people and one) ... ?
Yes, as a matter of fact, we do subscribe to a rather kooky idealogy. However, the key point is that those aspects of the idealogy are harmless.
--CoVD: Every time Vin Diesel kills God, a kitten masturbates.--
Image
BANDWIDTH THIEF
"Forgive you?" Leto's voice was full of sweet reason. "Of course I forgive you. That is your God's function. Your crime is forgiven. However, your stupidity requires a response." ~Frank Herbert, God-Emperor of Dune
ACPATHNTDWATGODW
The Death Brigade
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#124

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

The Morrigan wrote:
Comrade Tortoise wrote:Oddly enough, most people with "kooky ideologies" fall into this category. Example, the buddhists who set themselves on fire in S. Vietnam during the war.
Ok, serious question here. Do people who ritualistically eat food that they believe to be somehow (and in no physically discernable way) transfigured into the flesh and blood of their God (who is, incidentally, at the same time both three people and one) or who ritualistically mutilate the genitals of their children fall into your definition of "kooky ideology"? How about men and women who voluntarily consign themselves to a life of celibacy and in some cases confinement? How about a bunch of people who will not sit down to discuss the matter of whether a person is guilty of a crime and whether that person should be confined in a prison for the term of their natural life, unless certain members of the assembled are wearing elaborate horse-hair wigs?
Kooky, but irrelevant to the issue of suicide. A person can be convinced of things via ideology that they would not otherwise do. Like drink poisoned koolaid, or take their own life to restore family honor. The decision is not rational, but nor is it insane. It is the result of what is essentially brainwashing.

If you want to start a thread to bash religion, go right ahead. But if you are going to post off topic like this I will be forced to start moving your posts.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
User avatar
Comrade Tortoise
Exemplar
Posts: 4832
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2005 1:33 am
19
Location: Land of steers and queers indeed
Contact:

#125

Post by Comrade Tortoise »

The Morrigan wrote:
Stofsk wrote:
The Morrigan wrote:But of course, I'm not allowed to comment because this is Walper and CT's little 'game'.
Can the sarcasm. Since you didn't post on-topic until I bent your arm, don't pretend like you're some modern day prometheus just because the big-bad-moderator told you to behave.
Big bad? Oh dear. :lol:

Prometheus? I suppose that makes you one of the Gods then does it?

And in precisely what way did you bend my arm?
FInal warning.
"Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution."
- Theodosius Dobzhansky

There is no word harsh enough for this. No verbal edge sharp and cold enough to set forth the flaying needed. English is to young and the elder languages of the earth beyond me. ~Frigid

The Holocaust was an Amazing Logistical Achievement~Havoc
Post Reply