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#1 Mea Culpa and the Oregon Militia

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:45 am
by General Havoc
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/oregon-mandatory-minimums/422433/
The Atlantic wrote:
Oregon and the Injustice of Mandatory Minimums

Members of America's political left share far more concerns in common with the armed protestors than many apparently realize.

The activists who began occupying government buildings in the Oregon wilderness over the weekend say that they’re protesting how federal authorities treated rancher Dwight Hammond, 73, and Steven Hammond, his middle-aged son.

Federal authorities charged the Hammonds with arson after they set a series of fires that spread to public land. A 2001 fire accidentally burned beyond their property line, according to The New York Times. The Department of Justice says it was set to cover up an illegal deer hunt, while the men say that they were burning away an invasive plant species on their land. Years later in 2006, “a burn ban was in effect while firefighters battled blazes started by a lightning storm on a hot day in August,” the newspaper reported. “Steven Hammond had started a ‘back burn’ to prevent the blaze from destroying the family’s winter feed for its cattle.” It was reported by Bureau of Land Management firefighters in the area, and the Justice Department notes that they “took steps to ensure their safety.” It burned about an acre of public land, causing less than $1,000 in damage. Charged with a number of crimes related to arson, the father was convicted of just one count of arson while the son was convicted of two counts for the wilderness fires. The government used an anti-terrorism statute to secure its convictions.

The statute imposed a mandatory minimum sentence: 5 years imprisonment under the Orwellian-sounding Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. U.S. District Judge Michael Hogan felt that five-year sentences were “grossly disproportionate” and would “shock his conscience,” given the context of the case. He sentenced the older man to three months in federal prison and the son to concurrent one-year sentences. Those punishments inspired no radical activism.

What happened next, did. The Department of Justice appealed the sentences, won in the 9th Circuit, and is forcing the men to return to prison after they thought they had done their time. Both will now serve the mandatory-minimum sentence.

* * *

When HBO’s John Oliver broadcasts a polemical monologue, its subject is invariably something that America’s Blue Tribe—Americans whose place on the cultural and ideological left forms a core part of their identity—regards as idiotic, evil, or both. Last Week Tonight helps its audience indulge in collective outrage.

Earlier this year, Oliver skewered mandatory minimums. The laws “require judges to punish certain crimes with a minimum number of years in prison, regardless of context,” he explained, “which is a little strange, because context is important.” He added that “they’re partly responsible for the explosion of our prison population,” noting that many judges oppose them because they hand power over sentencing to prosecutors, who frequently “use the threat of long mandatory minimums to convince defendants to take a plea bargain or cooperate by giving information.”

The segment even highlighted the sort of people given mandatory minimums that Last Week Tonight’s target demographic was likely to find sympathetic: men and women, some with children, given long sentences in a drug war the blue tribe regards as unjust and pointless. Most every major media outlet on the center-left has run some version of that story over the last several years, and liberals and progressives eagerly shared Oliver’s takedown and its predecessors on social media.

I loved the segment.

Mandatory minimums really are objectionable as a matter of principle, as a policy that has resulted in countless individual injustices, and as a significant driver of over-incarceration.

In theory, those on the left who care about vanquishing mandatory minimums could have used the news story about the Hammonds to broaden awareness and opposition to the practice among members of the Red Tribe. Libertarian intellectuals oppose mandatory minimums. Why not the populist right, too? Some folks in rural areas who’ve never known about the laws, or think that they only affect people in cities, might change their minds if they were to find out that what happened to the Hammonds is routine; that many Americans have suffered far more egregious sentences; and that mandatory minimums affect all sorts of defendants.

Yes, the Oregon protestors have a larger agenda about the management of federal lands in the West and the degree to which they ought to be under local control.

Still, in their opposition to mandatory minimums, they share common ground with the left.

As Jacob Sullum explains, the judge who tried to impose lesser sentences on the Hammonds chose punishments “within the ranges recommended by federal sentencing guidelines that would have applied but for the statutory minimum.” In doing so, he argued that mandatory-minimum laws run afoul of the Constitution’s prohibition against cruel and unusual punishments, legal reasoning that surely appeals to at least some leftist opponents of mandatory minimums.

Sullum helpfully summarizes the 9th Circuit’s logic in imposing the five-year sentence on the Hammonds, which many longtime opponents of mandatory minimums will find perverse:

In rejecting Hogan's conclusion that the mandatory minimum was unconstitutional as applied to the Hammonds, the 9th Circuit noted that the Supreme Court "has upheld far tougher sentences for less serious or, at the very least, comparable offenses." The examples it cited included "a sentence of fifty years to life under California's three-strikes law for stealing nine videotapes," "a sentence of twenty-five years to life under California's three-strikes law for the theft of three golf clubs," "a forty-year sentence for possession of nine ounces of marijuana with the intent to distribute," and "a life sentence under Texas's recidivist statute for obtaining $120.75 by false pretenses." If those penalties did not qualify as "grossly disproportionate," the appeals court reasoned, five years for accidentally setting fire to federal land cannot possibly exceed the limits imposed by the Eighth Amendment.

In other words, since even worse miscarriages of justice have passed constitutional muster, this one must be OK too. Given the binding authority of the Supreme Court's precedents, the 9th Circuit's legal reasoning is hard to fault. But it highlights the gap between what is legal and what is right, a gap that occasionally inspires judges to commit random acts of fairness.

This might have served as a rallying cry for opponents of mass incarceration.

“While federal management of public lands is legitimate and occupying a federal facility is unjustified,” a left-leaning publication might have editorialized, “it’s easy to see why the Hammond case struck some observers as unjust. The notion that judges are there to exercise discretion based on context––that it’s odious to force them to give severe sentences even when they judge them to be ‘grossly disproportionate’––is exactly what criminal-justice reformers have long argued. There have been bipartisan reforms on this issue before. Let’s abolish all mandatory minimums for good through the civic process, not counterproductive armed protests.”

Instead, many left-leaning commentators are savaging the protestors in ways that can’t be exaggerated. Take David Atkins, who labels them terrorists in the Washington Monthly:

I don’t want to dwell too much on the rationales and motivations for these domestic terrorists any more than I would for the people who fight for ISIS or Al Qaeda. It’s always the same thing: a group of armed, angry men believe that the Big Bad Western Government is infringing on their right to do whatever it is they very well please—whether it’s to the environment, or to minorities, women, people of different religious groups, etc. Undereducated, armed angry men are often upset at Western governments for upsetting their private power apple carts because in their small, solipsistic worlds they’re very used to being lords of their manors and local enforcers of bigoted frontier justice. That’s as true of Afghan militants in the Taliban as it is of rural Montana militiamen. The only difference is in the trappings, the external presence of the rule of law and the degree of violence involved.

The blogger Scott Alexander once argued with more detail than I can quote here that “if you’re part of the Blue Tribe, then your outgroup isn’t al-Qaeda, or Muslims, or blacks, or gays, or transpeople, or Jews, or atheists—it’s the Red Tribe.”

The Washington Monthly article continues:

What’s more interesting to focus on is the response to the incident so far. As with ISIS, the Bundy clowns are actively seeking a confrontation with the big bad wolf of Big Western Government. They believe that an active confrontation will spark a movement that will lead to the overthrow of Big Brother. So far, especially after the incidents at Ruby Ridge and Waco, American leaders have been disinclined to give those opportunities to the domestic militiaman terrorists. Cliven Bundy and his miscreants got away with a wide range of crimes due to the forbearance of federal officials.

But the problem with taking that hands-off approach is that the treatment of left-leaning protesters is far different. Occupiers and Black Lives Matter protesters aren’t met with hand wringing and gentle admonishments. They’re met with batons and tear gas. If Black Lives Matter or Occupy protesters started arming themselves and taking over federal buildings, you can guarantee that police would start using live ammunition and people would die. So on the one hand it’s understandable that federal officials would not want to make martyrs of the right-wing domestic terrorists who are actively seeking to engage in a confrontation and make themselves appear to be downtrodden victims of the federal beast. But on the other hand, it’s infuriating that they receive special kid glove treatment that would not be afforded to minority and liberal activists.

The article concludes, “As much as restraint is the better part of valor when dealing with entitled conservative crazies, principles of basic justice and fair play also need to apply. What’s good for one type of terrorist must also be good for another.” That’s a call for the use of violence against specific Americans, framed as a demand for equality! It is bizarre that the author name-checks Ruby Ridge and Waco as he argues that white-male extremists in the Red Tribe get “kid glove” treatment––and seems stranger still with new information trickling out each month about how many bikers in last year’s Waco shootout were hit by police bullets.

Blacks and Hispanics do suffer disproportionately from police violence. I’ve written repeatedly about the egregiously unfair treatment of some Occupy protestors and the scandalously militarized response to street protests in Ferguson. But there are lots of examples of Occupy protestors who were met with no more than “hand wringing and gentle admonishments” even as they violated the law. Lots of Black Lives Matter protestors have engaged in civil disobedience without arrest.

I don’t know if there’s a double standard that causes Team Blue’s activists to be treated more harshly by authorities, but if there is, it would be no excuse for calling on police to use live ammunition more often rather than demanding that they evenhandedly exercise more restraint. “Self-proclaimed people of conscience interested in reducing and even eliminating excessive state violence should not make exceptions just because government violence might satiate their sectarian desires or partisan agendas,” Ed Krayewski persuasively argues. “...those exceptions easily become the rule by being exploited by other sectarians and partisans.”

Alas, the Washington Monthly author is hardly alone. “The Oregon men are domestic terrorists,” a CNN opinion article declares. On Twitter, folks on the left have dubbed the Oregon activists “Vanilla ISIS,” “Y’all Qaeda,” and “YokelHaram.”

Criticizing the armed occupiers is perfectly fine. They are acting irresponsibly, illegitimately, and based on some bad premises. They should abandon their counterproductive, doomed protest right now before they do harm to innocents or themselves, and instead pursue their grievances through civic persuasion. But all they’ve done so far is occupy a federal building in the wilderness when no one was using it. It is at least possible that in doing so they are calling attention to real misbehavior by the federal government. No tribe that customarily extols civil disobedience should first condemn them without taking the time to investigate the accuracy of their claims about that misbehavior.

And likening them to mass murderers amounts to irresponsible, indefensible demonization. It is unimaginable, save for the fact that the targets of state violence in this case are rural white men from the Red Tribe.

Thankfully, more responsible voices on the left are meeting tribal illogic and demonization with reason. “I understand the gut satisfaction of fantasizing about a Bonnie & Clyde style shootout that leaves the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge soaked in terrorist blood, but that's really not what any of us should want,” Kevin Drum writes at Mother Jones. “These guys aren't terrorists, anyway. They're just as misguided as real terrorists, but they haven't taken anyone hostage or threatened to blow up an airplane.” I don’t actually understand why a shootout is appealing even as fantasy, or how someone can be “just as misguided as real terrorists” without committing any acts of terrorism, but I’ll take it.

“What we must not do,” Margaret Corvid writes at Jacobin, “is call for the police to move in with the tear gas and rubber bullets of Ferguson and Baltimore, or the live rounds of MOVE or Wounded Knee, because equal injustice is not justice done.”

Quite so.

We’d all do better to focus on forging red-blue alliances to address injustices of common concern rather than behaving as if it is either useful or morally righteous to denounce, demonize, and dehumanize the members of opposing ideological tribes.

Proponents of using civil disobedience to draw attention to government injustices ought not conflate those who engage in that tactic with ISIS, Al Qaeda, or the Taliban. Opponents of mandatory-minimum sentences should oppose them in this case, too, even though there are far more egregious cases to highlight. Opponents of over-incarceration should look askance at sending an elderly man to prison for five years––two years more than Mike Tyson served for rape––even if he did set a fire to hide an illegal deer hunt. And opponents of overly broad domestic-terrorism laws should object to how the ranchers were prosecuted under them for non-terroristic acts. Why is cooperating on those concerns so hard for so many who share them?
I have been banging the drum against the ideological echo chamber that is the internet for some time here, but it wasn't until someone brought this article to my attention that I realized how culpable I was in all of it, despite my best efforts. Because the person this article denounces, the one who called the Oregon militia "Y'all Qaeda" and laughed at their requests for food, who secretly hoped the government would smash them to flinders as some kind of cathartic "payback" for excesses against BLM or other protests, that person was me. Not some anonymous, faceless mass of online harassers, not left-wing psychotics, not even the left-leaning members of this very board, whom I have taken to task before for this sort of thing, it was me. I called the Oregon group terrorists and gun nuts, I equated them with Al Qaeda and with ISIS, I casually threw the entire group under the bus, because for once, I got to be on the side of the "good" guys, which is to say the left, and I so rarely get that opportunity. Without knowing what I was doing, I betrayed every fundamental belief I have regarding politics, justice, and society, because doing so allowed me to feel good about being part of the group. And I did so at the same time as I was denouncing everyone else for engaging in the same behavior.

I hate being the guy who steps into the collective feel-good outrage parties wherein everyone is denouncing the evils of some mass of people they assume are opposed to them. I hate stepping up to bat for terrible people and groups that literally everyone I know denounces, often because they deserve it. Doing so has made me a pariah in many circles, and led to organized campaigns of harassment against me as an "abuser". It has cost me personal relationships, mental tranquility, money, and reputation, and consequently I did not do it as often as I wanted to, astonishing as that notion probably is to anyone who's ever heard me hold forth. I held my tongue and let things slip and did not make waves when people started complaining about vast groups of people they didn't know and wanted to imagine were evil, because it was just some people blowing off steam, and why do I need to make everything political? I held back because I didn't want to be "that guy", and didn't want everyone to think I was trying to attack them, and because people whose opinions I care about, people on this very board, asked me to. I hated being that guy anyway, so I held my tongue.

And whether because I saw an opportunity to finally be on the "right" side of an issue, or because I was tired and lazy, I became everything I held in contempt.

So... without trying to lay blame, because the blame lies with me, I think that it's time I stopped doing that. Because believe it or not, I really do hate being "that guy". But I find that I hate being a hypocrite who sells himself out for a moment's peace from the consensus around me a lot worse. I believe a certain set of things, and others do not believe these things, and that is fine. But what I cannot tolerate any longer is this blind adherence to a dogmatic hatred which infuses more or less every dynamic, particularly political ones, around us. We immure ourselves in these contempts which we hold masses of faceless people in, people we invest in all the evils we imagine to be surging around us, and we often do so in the name of equality, peace, and progress. Until we find ourselves in a place where, after the last major shooting, someone sent me a letter saying that the next time they saw me, they were going to throw hydrochloric acid in my face, because I am a Republican, and the world would be a better place if all Republicans received the like.

An extreme reaction from one deranged person? Of course. But it's a mentality we have all, to some extent, been exhibiting. Even me. And even if it gets me banned from what few remaining social circles I'm still welcome in, including the one I'm posting this in, I will never tolerate it again. And all I can ask of the rest of you is that if I ever start doing this kind of thing again, and I have every faith that I will, that you will never tolerate it in me either. Because I would rather be "that guy" forever, and die alone and hated by everyone I ever met, than vest every evil I ever conceived of in a mass of people I don't know, never met, and am prepared to conveniently write out of the human species.

#2 Re: Mea Culpa and the Oregon Militia

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:34 pm
by Hotfoot
The armed protesters in Oregon are a problem and are rightly ridiculed. That they got launched on a subject that does matter does not excuse the trajectory they have taken. Mandatory minimums are, in fact, bullshit. I doubt many people here would argue that point.

But it's not just the fact that they decided to take over a federal building, however minor, or that they did so while armed, or that members of their group express keen desires to force a shootout with federal agents, though these all major factors, but that the people they are supposedly doing this for expressly do not want this kind of help and have said so publically through their lawyer while they turned themselves in.

Moreover, there is a keen attention to the way the government is handling this situation compared to things like Black Lives Matter protests. BLM goes to have a peaceful protest at the Mall of America, and they are met by riot cops. These guys, while armed, take over a Federal Building and prevent its operation for weeks, and the response from law enforcement is to let them come and go as they please, letting them take trips to nearby restaurants, hotels, go to and from work, etc. That's not the fault of the militiamen in Oregon, but it's really hard not to get pissed off when peaceful protesters who are trying to get justice for someone who has been killed, not given a few more years in prison, get automatic weapons shoved in their faces, beaten, choked with tear gas, and the like, while these guys get to have a weekend in the woods complaining about what the government takes from them when one of them notably has a half million dollar loan from the government to help run his business.

Yes, there is a source of shared frustration from the Justice System at the source of the protest. I actually rather liked one of them in a recent interview where he made several good points. However, I cannot respect them for their actions, nor can I ultimately respect the system that has reacted to them in this way while other protests about things just as serious if not more so are met with far more hostile measures.

There is a common ground we can work from on this to reform the justice system and the police, but it's going to be hard to get to from where we are, and it's certainly not going to include the Bundy family.

#3 Re: Mea Culpa and the Oregon Militia

Posted: Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:10 pm
by General Havoc
Getting angry at the militia because they failed to be shot at is not going to help Black Lives Matter one whit, nor would the police shooting them. And invective about how the police should have gone in and executed everyone involved in the Oregon thing, invective which was widespread across the spectrum of the left during the "siege", and which I shared in, having not bothered to even look into what was happening, is simply depraved. It's true that there were BLM protests that were unjustly met with hyper-militarized police responses, but as the article above points out, that was not the experience of the majority of the BLM protests, and talking about how everyone who went out to protest for BLM got their ass kicked while Oregon was a terrorist attack by armed psychotics who all got away with it is not only a false narrative but it matters that it's a false narrative. Because we believe the narrative without thinking critically about it until we're actually calling for protesters to be murdered by the cops. And a lot of people were calling for that. And I was one of them.

Common ground means listening to one another, not tossing each other out the door because of a preconceived notion of which tribe they belong to. And we can come up with all sorts of excuses and reasons to not listen to one another, but that's still all we're doing.

#4 Re: Mea Culpa and the Oregon Militia

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:47 am
by Josh
General Havoc wrote:Common ground means listening to one another, not tossing each other out the door because of a preconceived notion of which tribe they belong to. And we can come up with all sorts of excuses and reasons to not listen to one another, but that's still all we're doing.
This is so goddamn true.

One of the most annoying damn things is watching people become aware of an issue, determine which side their tribe is on, and then fall in lockstep.

Havoc and I are agreeing. This is how the New Year starts.

#5 Re: Mea Culpa and the Oregon Militia

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 12:00 pm
by General Havoc
Josh wrote:Havoc and I are agreeing. This is how the New Year starts.
Image

#6 Re: Mea Culpa and the Oregon Militia

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:32 am
by Lys
Huh, this is the first time i've seen a major publication use the Blue Tribe/Red Tribe terminology. In fact, it's the first time i've seen outside of the rationalist/left-liberal/reactionary/altright/hbd corner of the internet (yes they're all somehow roughly the same corner). Not that i'm complaining, these terms express the cultural divide much better than using specific political affiliations, so i find them quite useful. Incidentally the place i first encountered them is this article, which explains them well enough but also discusses some other things that seem germane here.

#7 Re: Mea Culpa and the Oregon Militia

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:39 pm
by Comrade Tortoise
If they were just protesting mandatory minimums and doing so in a non-repugnant fashion, that would be great. I think most sane people can oppose mandatory minimums.

But these guys jumped the shark, and frankly are using the Hammonds to further a different agenda entirely. They are accessing information in federal computers (personal, and work related). They are paving roads in a wildlife sanctuary (and over archaeological sites and locations held sacred by local native tribes) and cutting fences to adjacent private land without the consent of the owners of that private land. Oh, and dont forget the grand theft auto. They have declared that they will not turn over the buildings and the sanctuary upon which it sits until federal public land is turned over to the county, and are also in the middle of setting up their own courts with the aim of putting people on trial.

Source material for the above (I can provide more if you want it)

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2499550

http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/04/us/oregon ... ndy-wants/

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-stando ... ns_dr.html

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/201 ... ice-system

To say nothing of the fact that these same people are guilty of numerous federal offences for the Bundy Clusterfuck of 2014. Sedition, contempt of court, obstruction of and threats toward federal officials, and whatever the hell you charge people with when they set up their own armed road blocks on the nation's highways.

Whatever the justice in the Hammond's case, the actions of these assholes has rendered the merits of that case completely irrelevant with respect to how we ought think of their current "protest" (by which I mean Sedition). Plus, they are not protesting mandatory minimum sentences as a concept. They are protesting the application thereof to one person. If you were to ask them what they think of Mandatory Minimum Sentences for any other sort of offence (example: drug offenses), I have a sneaking suspicion they would be all in favor. If I can be proven wrong on that at some point, I will make the public commitment right now. I will get my webcam, twist my feet up toward my face, and record myself chewing on my own feet and post it up on the internet with a public admission of being wrong.

They want special laws for special people, as far as I can tell. And fuck that. I categorically reject that notion.

The Sagebrush Rebellion Mk II has been brewing for a while, with ranchers and militia types in the western states committing regular acts of attempted murder, bombing, and arson directed at BLM, USFS, and FWS officials.

If the feds dont do something, I will be made correct again. You will recall that after the First Bundy Incident I made the prediction that not arresting everyone (or even just Cliven, for fuck's sake) would let the rest of the Sagebrush Rebellion aficionados think they could get away with even more outlandish shit? Yeah. I was right. And letting them get away with it this time will be worse. And given that I have skin in this game (much of it happens in my home state, I have friends in these agencies, and they do work I might end up doing). There is a fine line to walk between being too permissive and martyring people. Right now, the feds are waaaay the fuck too far on the being too permissive end of the scale.