Scores of police hurt in Paris riots (from gunfire)

[frigidmagi]

Yahoo

France - Rampaging youths rioted for a second night in Paris' suburbs, firing at officers and ramming burning cars into buildings. At least 80 officers were injured, a senior police union official said Tuesday.
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The overnight violence was more intense than during the three weeks of rioting in 2005, said the official, Patrice Ribeiro. He said "genuine urban guerrillas with conventional weapons and hunting weapons" were among the rioters.

On Monday night, youths were seen firing buckshot at police and reporters. About 30 of 82 injured officers were hit by buckshot, Ribeiro told The Associated Press. Rioters also hurled stones and Molotov cocktails at police, authorities said.

Police made six arrests, authorities said.

Youths, many of them Arab and black children of immigrants, again appeared to be lashing out at police and other targets seen to represent a French establishment they feel has left them behind.

"Police officers were targeted with hunting weapons; a certain number of them were wounded by lead shot," said Interior Minister Michele Alliot-Marie. "This is totally unacceptable," she said, adding there were six serious injuries, "people who notably were struck in the face and close to the eyes."

The use of firearms added a dangerous new dimension to the rioting. Firearms are widespread in France, and police generally carry guns. Such weapons, though, were rarely used in the 2005 riots that spread to poor housing projects nationwide.

The current riots were triggered by the deaths of two teens killed in a crash with a police patrol car on Sunday in Villiers-le-Bel, a blue-collar town in Paris' northern suburbs.

Residents claimed that officers left the crash scene without helping the teens, whose motorbike collided with the car. Officials cast doubt on the claim, but the internal police oversight agency was investigating.

The 2005 riots also started in the suburbs of northern Paris after two teens were electrocuted in a power substation while hiding from police.

The two teens killed Sunday were both black. They were identified in French media only by their first names, Lakhami, 16, and Mouhsin, 15.

A recent study by the state auditor's office indicated that money poured into poor French suburbs in recent decades had done little to solve problems vividly exposed by the 2005 riots, including discrimination, unemployment and alienation from mainstream society.

Despite decades of problems and heavy state investments to improve housing and create jobs, the depressed projects that ring Paris are a world apart from the glitzy boulevards and tourist attractions of the French capital. Police speak of no-go zones where they and fire fighters fear to patrol.

There have long been tensions between France's largely white police force and the ethnic minorities trapped in poor neighborhoods with high unemployment.

"The problem of bad relations between the police and minorities is underestimated," said criminologist Sebastien Roche.

Suspicion of the police and government officials runs high among residents of the bland housing project where the two teens were killed.

Rioting and arson first erupted in Villiers-le-Bel on Sunday night. It grew worse and spread Monday night to at least five other towns north of Paris.

Several hundred youths organized in small groups led the rioting in Villiers-le-Bel. Rioters rammed burning cars into buildings, trying to set them on fire, authorities said. Arsonists struck the municipal library, leaving burned books scattered on the floor. They attacked shops and other businesses and torched more than 70 vehicles, authorities said.

"There was a lot of fear," according to Villiers-le-Bel resident Farida Si Said.

Police face "a situation that is far worse than that of 2005," said Ribeiro, national secretary of the Synergie police union. "Our colleagues will not allow themselves to be fired upon indefinitely without responding," he warned on RTL radio.

President Nicolas Sarkozy, who is visiting China, appealed for calm and called a security meeting with his ministers for Wednesday on his return to France. The violence and the use of firearms against officers presented his government, in office since May, with a stern test.

The rioting youth "want Sarkozy. They want him to come and explain" what happened to the two teens, said Linda Beddar, a 40-year-old mother of three in Villiers-le-Bel. Beddar woke Tuesday to find the library across from her house a burned-out shell after youths set in on fire the night before.

Sarkozy was interior minister in charge of police during the 2005 riots and his government appears keen to avoid a repeat.

"We will not let go. We will fight with all the force the nation is capable of," Prime Minister Francois Fillon told firefighters in Villiers-le-Bel. He promised reinforced security for Tuesday night, and several trucks of riot police were on the outskirts of town.

You know, I did say it was gonna hit this point and I am saying that it'll get worse.

[Norseman]

Some of yuo may ask why the police aren't shooting back? Let me ask you a different question: What would happen if the police did shoot back?

First most of these rioters are Muslims, primarily of a non-European origin. So you got an ethnic / religious issue to worry about as well. Who knows what they'd do if the police opened fire? Would there be more riots all over France? Maybe... maybe not... but you can't be sure can you?

Mind you they wouldn't open fire even if these were white protestors; or rather they'd be unlikely to do so. The simple reason is that the French authorities don't want a blood bath, and if the police open fire people will die. Some of them will be innocent. E.g. you will hit Jean who was crossing the street to buy milk for his two year old daughter. Even if you kill the responsible parties you still have to prove they were responsible, not so easy if their friends strip away the rifle. (And the press won't wait for the forensics examination).

So first you have the fact that the rioters (Muslim) could start acting even worse, and escalate the violence even further. Second there's the fact that no matter who the rioters are it's political suicide for the police to open fire on any rioters, the press would tear you to pieces!

If I were a French police chief I wouldn't order my men to open fire, I'd order them to dress up in body armour, and to withdraw if necessary. After all cars are insured, and no one will pay much attention to the rapes and murders committed by the rioters. So why should I risk the lives of my men, and my own career, to open fire?

In fact if I were a French police chief I would only open fire if, and when, the President of the Republic (or some other high mucketimuck) explicitly and formally, with a paper trail, ordered me to do so. Not authorised me to do so, not permitted it "if the circumstances are right", but a positive order.

So until such an order is issued the logical way to treat this is try to contain the riots, bolster the insurance companies, and then see about bribing anyone who can make the riots stop for now.

Should the order be given the fall out will be huge, and things will have to have gotten very bad before they'd even consider issuing such an order. Given traditional French restraint there'd also be a lot of bloodshed by then, but no western state can kill all of the troublemakers...

[frigidmagi]

Thoughts:

The original riots in 2005 were disorganized and relativity lacking in firepower. With only one know instant of police being fired upon.

Since that time however we have seen these young Muslim gangsters engage in small unit attacks on French Police.

This is their first real exercise in large groups in violent confrontation. I'm willing to bet dollars versus pesos it won't be the last or the bloodiest.

Sooner or later the police are going to have to shot back.

[Norseman]

The thing is that the deaths of normal French people, the arson, the attacks on firemen and policemen... they flat out don't matter as much as violence against the rioters would. Politically it's easier to accept ten dead regular frenchmen (or frenchwomen) and a few dozen rapes, than it is to kill a single rioter.

There won't be a serious crack down until the Right People feel threatened, and why should they? They live far away from the danger zone, and they have good security. If some of them die it's either by sheer accident, or as a result of challenging Islam. In the first case there'd be apologies, and mutual commisserations, in the second they blame the victim.

I think there'll be some minor crackdown in the aftermath of this years Christmas Riots (note how there's always a riot around Christmas time), but note the word "aftermath." When the riots are over there'll be raids on some mosques and apartments, there'll be arrests, some deportations, some prison sentences. Then there'll be accusations of persecution and racism, but Sarcozy will stand up and argue for his harder line.

It won't amount to anything, but the theatre will calm the people, and make a few American bloggers wax lyrically about Sarcozy and what a great man he is.

So that's my prediction.

[Knife]

So first you have the fact that the rioters (Muslim) could start acting even worse, and escalate the violence even further. Second there's the fact that no matter who the rioters are it's political suicide for the police to open fire on any rioters, the press would tear you to pieces!

If I were a French police chief I wouldn't order my men to open fire, I'd order them to dress up in body armour, and to withdraw if necessary. After all cars are insured, and no one will pay much attention to the rapes and murders committed by the rioters. So why should I risk the lives of my men, and my own career, to open fire?

Not only is this argument moraly repugnant, all it does is let the problem fester for later in hopes some one else later has the balls to actually deal with the problem. Good luck with that.

[frigidmagi]

It is morally repugnant Knife but you know that's how alot of them are thinking.

[Norseman]

It is morally repugnant Knife but you know that's how alot of them are thinking.

Indeed, that you see is the problem. People keep praising moral fortitude, and condemning anyone who actually shows some. What else is new?

And I'm not supporting this view, I just refuse to live in a fools paradise.