LibriumArcana.Games

I am having a bit of trouble with a monk player in the group I am running. The long and short of the situation is that the monk class sucks which has the monk player bummed. He is thinking about taking some prestige class or other, but the trouble is, which one to take.

Here's the situation. The group was at 6th level and only just leveled. One of the characters is a fighter 3/cleric 3, with Healing and War as his chosen domains (I had urged him to take full Cleric since he was getting Martial Weapon Proficiency from the War domain anyway, but he was dead set on the concept he made). The other is a fighter, a classic greatsword wielding, fullplate clad guy with Power Attack/Great Cleave. The third wanted to be a monk. I urged him to take something else, such as Wizard or Bard, since there was no arcane caste in the group (nor a skill monkey) (*), but he too was dead set on his choice.

Well, now he seems to be regretting this. Basically, the other two characters (especially the fighter) are cutting through the opposition like a hot knife through butter, while he's running around with inferior AC, attack bonus, hit points and damage and with fancy but ultimately pointless monk abilities. So his idea is to take some sort of prestige class. I am honestly unsure about which choice to recommend to him, or whether he should take a prestige class at all (he would rise to 7th level next, which grants Wholeness of Body).

Any ideas?

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(*) Fortunately, the fighter took Leadership as his 6th level feat, so I could throw an arcane Cohort his way. He picked the Bard over the Wizard and Sorcerer.

Reaping Mauler is kinda fun(Complete Adventurer I believe). With a good grapple you can neutralize most combat monsters, and the Sleeper Hold/Death hold later in the class means anyone with a low fort is toast. Plus you can do pretty good damage while keeping them pinned and unable to do more then struggle. The Feat Earths Embrace I believe grants bonus to unarmed damage when you pin someone. Don't forget to remind him of the strong points of monk. Best saves you could have, very mobile, better damage avoidance. And as for stunning fist and Flurry of Blows, I know it doesn't totally make up for the shear amount of martial damage a fighter can put out (no one can)but it helps.

Maybe it was just the way everyone played their characters, but I always found my monk to be quite powerful.

If memory serves me correctly, aren't there Monk items that give bonuses to attack and AC in the DM's guide? Hell I'm going by classic (lol 'classic') 3rd Ed, I don't know if 3.5 adds to or nerfs monks at all (I haven't played D&D in years).

One prestige class I remember was the Red Avenger or something. It might be helpful to outline what the character's skills, feats and stats are. (and for comparative purposes, also what his party members stats are)

You need to hook him up with an amulet of natural armor or something along that lines. They get up to +4 and can be rather helpful. Anything that amps his dex is also good.

As for the player, he needs to stress his mobility, Tumble is his friend. As are the various monk abilities that let him whiz through the battlespace like a 4 year old on crack. He shouldn't be trying to do one on one, face to face slugfests with brawlers. That's the fighters job. He should be doing things like ducking in for the flank to smack someone with stunning fist. dodging around to evac fallen PCs and allies, sliding behind the enemy formation for a little quality time with the enemy caster and such. It may be he's trying to use the monk as a fighter, if that's so he needs to rethink.

Angelod was my monk player in an old 3.5 campaign and he managed to remain fairly competitive with the other player by remembering to play to his strengths. On the flip side the characters rampant alcoholism paired with CT's need to control everything pretty much got the party killed... So it may have been a wash...

frigidmagi wrote:You need to hook him up with an amulet of natural armor or something along that lines. They get up to +4 and can be rather helpful. Anything that amps his dex is also good.

As for the player, he needs to stress his mobility, Tumble is his friend. As are the various monk abilities that let him whiz through the battlespace like a 4 year old on crack. He shouldn't be trying to do one on one, face to face slugfests with brawlers. That's the fighters job. He should be doing things like ducking in for the flank to smack someone with stunning fist. dodging around to evac fallen PCs and allies, sliding behind the enemy formation for a little quality time with the enemy caster and such. It may be he's trying to use the monk as a fighter, if that's so he needs to rethink.

Angelod was my monk player in an old 3.5 campaign and he managed to remain fairly competitive with the other player by remembering to play to his strengths. On the flip side the characters rampant alcoholism paired with CT's need to control everything pretty much got the party killed... So it may have been a wash...

Yeah that was some good times. They really played their characters well, even if almost every thing they wanted to do was more harm then good.

One thing a monk player has to remember is that what his class absolutely excels at is not going toe to toe with melee dudes but beating the ever living shit out of casters. Their mobility allows them to close and avoid attacks of opportunity, all their saves are good, and they can stun. They're also good at beating up rogues, bards, and other classes that support the tanks.

Cynical Cat wrote:One thing a monk player has to remember is that what his class absolutely excels at is not going toe to toe with melee dudes but beating the ever living shit out of casters.

This.

Write it down, underline it, and copy it. The Monk is the "troubleshooter" of the group, systematically breaking down an enemy party, one weak point at a time.

The monk has high saves for the casters trying stupid shit, and with the right feats, can bring a caster down very fast. The Crystalkeep files for monk feats are very revealing; have the monk player read them over, and discuss them with the DM. There are...many delicious possibilities there - adding fire damage to unarmed attacks, pressure point strikes, even ki blasts at range.

For the love of God, no Ki blasts! This isn't DBZ.

frigidmagi wrote:For the love of God, no Ki blasts! This isn't DBZ.

Trying to get this man to give up the idea of ki-blasts is like trying to make Angelina Jolie stop adopting kids. It's not a fight you can win...

frigidmagi wrote:For the love of God, no Ki blasts! This isn't DBZ.

It is kind of a bullshit feat, I'll give you that. But if it makes you feel better, by the time the monk can get it, their hand damage is better.

It's more a "lol flyswatter" thing than anything resembling a month-long seizure preceding a kiloton nuclear explosion.

Of course, if one's DM is as aghast at the idea of a monk having energy shots as you are Frigid, that's still fine. The pressure point feat is better anyway.

Am I the only person who plays a monk like a cheerful smart ass version of Friar Tuck? :)

"The path to enlightenment is full of contemplation. And deflecting arrows. HEY WATCH THIS GUYS!"

Stofsk wrote:Am I the only person who plays a monk like a cheerful smart ass version of Friar Tuck? :)

"The path to enlightenment is full of contemplation. And deflecting arrows. HEY WATCH THIS GUYS!"

You'll note there's nothing in the rules about monks not being able to imbibe copious amounts of intoxicants.

m I the only person who plays a monk like a cheerful smart ass version of Friar Tuck? :)

Angelod went with a Jackie Chan drunken master kinda vibe.

Thanks for the suggestions thus far; I'll post the stats now:

Fighter Guy; level 7:
AC 19; greatsword +12/+7 2d6+7; hp 63; Move 20 ft.
Fort +8, Ref +2, Will +2
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8
Weapon Focus - greatsword, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Sunder, Improved Initiative, Weapon Specialization - greatsword, Great Cleave, Leadership.
+1 Greatsword
Full plate

Fighter/Cleric Guy; level 3/3 - 7th level pending:
AC 21; warhammer +10 1d8+4; hp 58; Move 20 ft.
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +8
Str 16, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Great Cleave, Endurance
+1 Warhammer
+1 Shield
Full plate

Monk Guy; level 6 - 7th level pending:
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8
AC 18, unarmed attack +9 1d8+3; hp 42; Move 50 ft.
Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +7
Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, Evasion, Still Mind, Ki Strike, Slow Fall 30 ft., Purity of Body, Deflect Arrows, Improved Disarm, Dodge, Run, Weapon Focus - unarmed
Ring of Protection +2, bunch of minor potions


Bard Cohort; level 3
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15
AC 16, rapier +5 1d6+1; hp 19; Move 30 ft.
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +3
Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus - rapier
Bard abilities - level 3
Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Know Direction, Light, Message, Read Magic
Expedious Retreat, Hypnotism, Magic Weapon
Various minor scrolls


As you may have guessed, it's a rather low-magic campaign. Moreover, it's one which emphasizes large battles. The monk has been playing rather like a fighter. I guess he was inspired by kung fu action movies where the kung fu guy can take on a host of bad guys more or less head on. Actually, the class was a bit shoe-horned in, since it doesn't quite fit the background, but that wasn't something I wanted to make a big fuss over (even though I encouraged him to take some other class).

Fortunately, he has quite a bit of gold remaining, so he can buy some stuff with it, the next time they're in civilization (although it has to remain at least fairly low-magic for consistency' sake). I am leaning strongly towards having his dojo reward him with a belt of some sort, either of giant strength (+2 to hit and damage) or the monk's belt (which would improve his attacks to 2d6+3, increase his stunning fist attacks by +1 per day and his AC by +1).

rhoenix wrote:The monk has high saves for the casters trying stupid shit, and with the right feats, can bring a caster down very fast.

That's true. Unfortunately, I've had to run the enemy casters as being rather dumber/more cowardly than they should be, given that Fly + Invisibility + Protection From Arrows should be available to a caster of one or two levels below the party's current level. So far, it has not been too glaring and/or I've made them minor assistants to rogues and fighters to give the party a chance. As has been pointed out, the casters can be rather broken when played just right.

rhoenix wrote:The Crystalkeep files for monk feats are very revealing; have the monk player read them over, and discuss them with the DM. There are...many delicious possibilities there - adding fire damage to unarmed attacks, pressure point strikes, even ki blasts at range.

Intriguing. What is Crystalkeep, and where can I find it?

EDIT:

<uses Google>

This is it, right?

EDIT 2:

Fixed the cleric/fighter's saves

That kind of caster nonsense is usually only practical for NPCs.

1) It requires foreknowledge to prep and get the spells slots off.

2) It eats up spell slots.

3) Doing it more than once a day is grossly impractical.

Evil NPCs ambushing the heroes can abuse the fuck out of it, but its a lot less useful to PCs.

As for points 2&3, that's what wands are for. Agreed on #1, though.


In any case, they don't have an arcane caster other than their little bard cohort, so PC caster tactics don't really matter.


Might boots of flying might be an idea? <ponders>

The Minx wrote:Intriguing. What is Crystalkeep, and where can I find it?

EDIT:

<uses Google>

This is it, right

Yes - download the generic index files.

The fighter is only AC 19? Oh wait you don't have a bunch of min-maxers, carry on. *sighs*

An amulet of natural armor will boost the monk greatly. Something to boost his wisdom will be very important as well. T

Actually, from adding up the fighter's AC should be 18; full plate is +8, he's got no Dexterity bonus, and I don't see another source of armor class.

Masterwork armour perhaps? (doesn't that give a non-magic +1 to AC?)

I'm pretty sure it just reduces armor check penalties by one. Not that useful, unless you're using a lot of skills. Masterwork studded leather is great for rogues before you get magic gear, of course.

frigidmagi wrote:The fighter is only AC 19? Oh wait you don't have a bunch of min-maxers, carry on. *sighs*

An amulet of natural armor will boost the monk greatly. Something to boost his wisdom will be very important as well. T

They're about as far from min/maxers as you can get. :)

I'm going to be dropping several items in their laps shortly, I was mostly wondering whether his idea of a prestige class for the monk would be a good idea or not. I'm not so sure that it's a good idea.

Rogue 9 wrote:Actually, from adding up the fighter's AC should be 18; full plate is +8, he's got no Dexterity bonus, and I don't see another source of armor class.

You are correct, it has a +1 enchantment; I forgot to put that in there.

The Minx wrote:I'm going to be dropping several items in their laps shortly, I was mostly wondering whether his idea of a prestige class for the monk would be a good idea or not. I'm not so sure that it's a good idea.

This is a problem I frequently ran into. There are some okay ones, but nothing truly awesome for a monk. To be honest, staying a base monk and getting some of the more awesome monk feats might work fine.

The even semi-good options for monk prestige class all have other class requirements, as I recall. So, encourage him to look, but make sure to caution him into not getting attached - most of the options really aren't that good.